To The People Who Run Wincustomize.com
Friday, August 23, 2002 by Pete Constanteas | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Dear Sirs,
I tried to download a skin from your excellent site and I was informed that I had already downloaded over 100 MB. Then, I was asked to register and become a member in order to help you run the site and everything.
Well, I wasn’t actually asked. I was TOLD. And since I have no intention to pay for services that never had a price tag to begin with, I prefer not to visit your site again. Me and some 30 others who are facing the same problem. Perhaps hundreds or even thousands more I don’t even know.
Of course, you realize there are many ways I could have overcome this little problem. I could use another name, for instance. Or another computer. I don’t want to stoop to such methods. But you know something? I thought neither would you.
We are all enthusiastic users. It’s an honor visiting a site as wonderful as yours, but it’s also an honor for you, to have people visit and upload skins that, after all, make your trade. More or less, I’m asked to pay for downloading skins (one of them could be mine, if I decided to make one) that were uploaded without any fee. Is this fair? Is this right? Is this contrary to the spirit of sharing and enjoying or not?
So, I will wait to see if your decision will be upturned. I am sure you will see the injustice and change course. Let people who want to subscribe do so. Offer more incentives. Offer a lower price. But let the rest use a site that, after all, promotes the spirit of free art and co-operation.
I remain confident in you and your concept
Pete, Citizen to you who lately was the victim of a coup d’ etat…
I tried to download a skin from your excellent site and I was informed that I had already downloaded over 100 MB. Then, I was asked to register and become a member in order to help you run the site and everything.
Well, I wasn’t actually asked. I was TOLD. And since I have no intention to pay for services that never had a price tag to begin with, I prefer not to visit your site again. Me and some 30 others who are facing the same problem. Perhaps hundreds or even thousands more I don’t even know.
Of course, you realize there are many ways I could have overcome this little problem. I could use another name, for instance. Or another computer. I don’t want to stoop to such methods. But you know something? I thought neither would you.
We are all enthusiastic users. It’s an honor visiting a site as wonderful as yours, but it’s also an honor for you, to have people visit and upload skins that, after all, make your trade. More or less, I’m asked to pay for downloading skins (one of them could be mine, if I decided to make one) that were uploaded without any fee. Is this fair? Is this right? Is this contrary to the spirit of sharing and enjoying or not?
So, I will wait to see if your decision will be upturned. I am sure you will see the injustice and change course. Let people who want to subscribe do so. Offer more incentives. Offer a lower price. But let the rest use a site that, after all, promotes the spirit of free art and co-operation.
I remain confident in you and your concept
Pete, Citizen to you who lately was the victim of a coup d’ etat…
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pjpowell
Reply #43 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:15 PM
Reply #43 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:15 PM
You just don't get it do you?
YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR CONTENT!!!!!
Subscriptions are providing a way for Wincusto to keep running. You mention the fact that skinz would rather die than take revenue. When it died it was owned by e-front who ran it into the ground and didn't keep their promises. It's not like the admins decided 'Hey we're gonna have to charge soon. Let's just pull the site." It was that they weren't being paid for the work they were doing. It also had numerous popups all over the place in the final days. Would you rather wincusto just died like skinz did? I certainly would not.
YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR CONTENT!!!!!
Subscriptions are providing a way for Wincusto to keep running. You mention the fact that skinz would rather die than take revenue. When it died it was owned by e-front who ran it into the ground and didn't keep their promises. It's not like the admins decided 'Hey we're gonna have to charge soon. Let's just pull the site." It was that they weren't being paid for the work they were doing. It also had numerous popups all over the place in the final days. Would you rather wincusto just died like skinz did? I certainly would not.
mgorbach
Reply #45 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:23 PM
Reply #45 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:23 PM
I wouldent want wincusto to die, i would love for some sections to be removed though, to cut the bandwith costs. Stardock benefits from this site so much, first because they advertise their products here, and mainly because without skins their products would be worth nothing.
mgorbach
Reply #46 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:23 PM
Reply #46 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:23 PM
I wouldent want wincusto to die, i would love for some sections to be removed though, to cut the bandwith costs. Stardock benefits from this site so much, first because they advertise their products here, and mainly because without skins their products would be worth nothing.
joetheblow
Reply #47 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:35 PM
Reply #47 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:35 PM
skins.org "use to"... is the key.
Neowin.... is a bad example because... well just ask the people of Noewin (when it is not down)
yes it is sad things are not just for "free". I understand the "commercilization" of skinning your talking about. That is a issue by itself, but what does that really have to do with maintaining a site< or paying for bandwidth? If your point is that your willing to deal with downtime or not being able to upload or download works, or get pop up adds, and so one... plus..PLUS not everyone would like that they are being slapped with ads or asked to "please" donate. Not all people even DONATE!! ANYTHING at all. Nada, what about those who just download and say or do nothing to help COMENT on skinners work???
I left a post in the other thread in the hopes that somebody comes up with real data as to why wincustomize should not aks people to comment on skinners work or help skinners or buy a browser that gives you more then you spend.
20 dollars??? for 2 years?? come on. they even now let you try it for freee....
I don't know about you but I want to help and I do so by COMMENTING on WORKS...
and you???
Please give evidence and name some sites that are doing what you claim. Data as to how much it cost to run a site with 100GB of stuff, heavy images, and so on.
Tell me about Oracle os MySQL, PHP, ASP, something that has to do with data base managment.
Systems analysis, data base theory.... I could keep going....
---------
bye all, hopefully I'll see you in a week or 2!! I have so much work to do.
Neowin.... is a bad example because... well just ask the people of Noewin (when it is not down)
yes it is sad things are not just for "free". I understand the "commercilization" of skinning your talking about. That is a issue by itself, but what does that really have to do with maintaining a site< or paying for bandwidth? If your point is that your willing to deal with downtime or not being able to upload or download works, or get pop up adds, and so one... plus..PLUS not everyone would like that they are being slapped with ads or asked to "please" donate. Not all people even DONATE!! ANYTHING at all. Nada, what about those who just download and say or do nothing to help COMENT on skinners work???
I left a post in the other thread in the hopes that somebody comes up with real data as to why wincustomize should not aks people to comment on skinners work or help skinners or buy a browser that gives you more then you spend.
20 dollars??? for 2 years?? come on. they even now let you try it for freee....
I don't know about you but I want to help and I do so by COMMENTING on WORKS...
and you???
Please give evidence and name some sites that are doing what you claim. Data as to how much it cost to run a site with 100GB of stuff, heavy images, and so on.
Tell me about Oracle os MySQL, PHP, ASP, something that has to do with data base managment.
Systems analysis, data base theory.... I could keep going....
---------
bye all, hopefully I'll see you in a week or 2!! I have so much work to do.
pjpowell
Reply #48 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:39 PM
Reply #48 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:39 PM
I'm interested to hear which sections?
It has been stated many times that Stardock is losing more than it is gaining to this site. How is people sucking up all your bandwidth day and night (many of whom are not customers, and are not likely to pay anyway) such a benefit? It may just about break even but it certainly isn't a cash cow.
If there is not some type of restriction you get freeloaders coming in and leeching the entire library. This was happening and is part of what made Stardock say enough is enough. The people who contribute don't use most bandwidth. The people who have downloaded a warez copy of some Stardock software or who downloaded the shareware version were the ones who were downloading most and would have no scruples in using as much bandwidth as they could possibly get their modems onto.
It has been stated many times that Stardock is losing more than it is gaining to this site. How is people sucking up all your bandwidth day and night (many of whom are not customers, and are not likely to pay anyway) such a benefit? It may just about break even but it certainly isn't a cash cow.
If there is not some type of restriction you get freeloaders coming in and leeching the entire library. This was happening and is part of what made Stardock say enough is enough. The people who contribute don't use most bandwidth. The people who have downloaded a warez copy of some Stardock software or who downloaded the shareware version were the ones who were downloading most and would have no scruples in using as much bandwidth as they could possibly get their modems onto.
mgorbach
Reply #49 Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:33 PM
Reply #49 Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:33 PM
But is a benefit pipowell these people use the skins, they show it to their friends, they expand the skinning community, which, software wise, stardock just happens to have a monopoly on (they deserve it though because of all the awesome software) Stardock gains sooo much from wincustomize, publicity, many people, all being exposed to the strong prostardock bios of everything on the site. I think this site should never have been founded, it was inevitable what would happen.
Oh yeah and neowin will soon be working just fine, they are running on a free server (company gave it to them) and they will get it working soon. Neowin is an example of what a site like wincustomize could have been if it hadn't been mixed up in stardock.
PS damn its hard arguing against what seems like the entire message board, maybe il try to think up some new and better arguments tomorrow.
Oh yeah and neowin will soon be working just fine, they are running on a free server (company gave it to them) and they will get it working soon. Neowin is an example of what a site like wincustomize could have been if it hadn't been mixed up in stardock.
PS damn its hard arguing against what seems like the entire message board, maybe il try to think up some new and better arguments tomorrow.
UBoB
Reply #50 Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:36 PM
Reply #50 Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:36 PM
This is ridiculous!
WinCustomize charges a small fee to keep the site going.....period.
This is how it is.
This is how it will be
Everyone is arguing just for the sake of arguing.
You won't change anything.
So stop trying.
WinCustomize charges a small fee to keep the site going.....period.
This is how it is.
This is how it will be
Everyone is arguing just for the sake of arguing.
You won't change anything.
So stop trying.
Mercury
Reply #51 Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:49 PM
Reply #51 Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:49 PM
Marina, please look up the word monopoly. You'll find it very enlightening.
As for Stardock software, it's not the only game in town it just happens to be the best!
As for Stardock software, it's not the only game in town it just happens to be the best!
ProQuestor
Reply #52 Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:41 PM
Reply #52 Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:41 PM
Hmm...
Posters like Pete and similar are called "trolls". Frequent users of web boards are familiar with such characters and normal course of action is simply to ignore them. The whole idea of "throlling" is to wind up people. Not to insult everybody, but those who reply to such posts, trying to reason with them, are wasting their time.
Visit boards of different software or service companies, who offered something for free, then started charging for products, services or simply provide some extras for subscribers. You'll see tenth or hundrers posts like Pete's.
So developers should realise, that if something they provide is useful to general public and people think it's really worth asked price, end users will happily pay for it.
If somebody doesn't like it, it's their problem. Simple as that. You can't satisfy everybody and it shouldn't be the goal anyway. There're others who will support you.
OK, rant mode off.
Have a nice day all.
Posters like Pete and similar are called "trolls". Frequent users of web boards are familiar with such characters and normal course of action is simply to ignore them. The whole idea of "throlling" is to wind up people. Not to insult everybody, but those who reply to such posts, trying to reason with them, are wasting their time.
Visit boards of different software or service companies, who offered something for free, then started charging for products, services or simply provide some extras for subscribers. You'll see tenth or hundrers posts like Pete's.
So developers should realise, that if something they provide is useful to general public and people think it's really worth asked price, end users will happily pay for it.
If somebody doesn't like it, it's their problem. Simple as that. You can't satisfy everybody and it shouldn't be the goal anyway. There're others who will support you.
OK, rant mode off.
Have a nice day all.
Jafo
Reply #53 Saturday, August 24, 2002 8:32 PM
Reply #53 Saturday, August 24, 2002 8:32 PM
mgorbach...
Your recollections of skinz.org and its financial history differ from reality.
Its 'attempts' to remain 'free' to users enabled that wonderful company 'eFront' to git its claws into it and thus it died a sad death when the skinners revolted and left en-mass.
Wincustomize.com was created as a 'financially stable' replacement to fill the void, and, with the knowledge of hind-sight and some sensible heads overseeing things, it has thrived.
And skinning is still 'free'. The difference now is that there is at least one site that hosts skins that wont succumb to the modern equivalent of eFront and/or other disasters of economy...
Your recollections of skinz.org and its financial history differ from reality.
Its 'attempts' to remain 'free' to users enabled that wonderful company 'eFront' to git its claws into it and thus it died a sad death when the skinners revolted and left en-mass.
Wincustomize.com was created as a 'financially stable' replacement to fill the void, and, with the knowledge of hind-sight and some sensible heads overseeing things, it has thrived.
And skinning is still 'free'. The difference now is that there is at least one site that hosts skins that wont succumb to the modern equivalent of eFront and/or other disasters of economy...
mgorbach
Reply #54 Saturday, August 24, 2002 8:47 PM
Reply #54 Saturday, August 24, 2002 8:47 PM
What Wincustomize has sucumbed to IMHO is worse than what happened at skinz.org
Stardock is charging for other people's work, i know the reason is bandwith, but face it without the skins there would be nothing to charge for, so they are charging for other people's work, its not their right to do that. Why do all the skinners copyright their stuff saying "do not sell or make money in any way off of these skins" I just hope this payperview scheme wont spread to other good sites.
Stardock is charging for other people's work, i know the reason is bandwith, but face it without the skins there would be nothing to charge for, so they are charging for other people's work, its not their right to do that. Why do all the skinners copyright their stuff saying "do not sell or make money in any way off of these skins" I just hope this payperview scheme wont spread to other good sites.
bmetelsky
Reply #55 Saturday, August 24, 2002 8:54 PM
Reply #55 Saturday, August 24, 2002 8:54 PM
mgorbach,
Opinions are like -------. Your argument is not valid. You continue to look at this issue with tunnelvision. You see what you want to see. Don't stir up shit here just because you need a place to whine.
Opinions are like -------. Your argument is not valid. You continue to look at this issue with tunnelvision. You see what you want to see. Don't stir up shit here just because you need a place to whine.
WOM
Reply #56 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:00 PM
Reply #56 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:00 PM
You know that if Stardock pulled the plug(MONEY) from WC that the other skin site would not last 3 months. They would be beseiged with so many downloads that they would have to start charging or go under. If you cannot see that then you need to go back to school. I for one am glad they haven't. Also if you think that without WC stardock would go broke you are crazy. You still need the software.
bakerstreet
Reply #57 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:02 PM
Reply #57 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:02 PM
?????????????????
are you insane? or slow? or what? How is this different than anyone making money on advertising from the skins they host? Show me these free sites, right now. I demand it.
Like i said, go now, go to Geocities, and upload your 'work' there. Sit and wait. When, after a year, you realize that no one is seeing it, you will realize what you are paying for here. As long as you can delete your work, and that SD isn't including it in any of their merchandise, what you are getting here is a free way to share your skins with people. IF those same people download more that 100 megs and don't contribute anything in return, then they have to pay. Is this your site? No, so your ongoing rant doesn't seem to have any point at all.
Here's an idea. Grow a backbone. If you don't think that WC is telling the truth, and that they are making oodles of money and this is not just to cover the cost, then state your proof. Enlighten us with the locations of these free skin sites you are referencing. Do SOMETHING besides piss and moan.
are you insane? or slow? or what? How is this different than anyone making money on advertising from the skins they host? Show me these free sites, right now. I demand it.
Like i said, go now, go to Geocities, and upload your 'work' there. Sit and wait. When, after a year, you realize that no one is seeing it, you will realize what you are paying for here. As long as you can delete your work, and that SD isn't including it in any of their merchandise, what you are getting here is a free way to share your skins with people. IF those same people download more that 100 megs and don't contribute anything in return, then they have to pay. Is this your site? No, so your ongoing rant doesn't seem to have any point at all.
Here's an idea. Grow a backbone. If you don't think that WC is telling the truth, and that they are making oodles of money and this is not just to cover the cost, then state your proof. Enlighten us with the locations of these free skin sites you are referencing. Do SOMETHING besides piss and moan.
bakerstreet
Reply #58 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:05 PM
Reply #58 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:05 PM
p.s. if you are not talking as a skinner, and all the skinners here are disagreeing with you, who exactly are you bearing a torch for? The users? Go start a site list this and see how sympathetic to your monthly transfer. They'll bleed you dry, and move on.
bakerstreet
Reply #59 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:08 PM
Reply #59 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:08 PM
"start a site like this and see how sympathetic they are to your monthly transfer" cut-and-paste woes...
Chris
Reply #60 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:21 PM
Reply #60 Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:21 PM
"without the skins there would be nothing to charge for, so they are charging for other people's work,its not their right to do that"
This makes no logical sense whatsoever. They are two separate things. By your logic there is no such thing as hosting, bandwidth, delievery and so on (even though the reality clearly shows otherwise.
To put in in realworld terms:
When someone sends mail to someone and put it in the mailbox, don't someone put a stamp on it? A stamp which someone paid for because the post office requires such payment for their "hosting and delivery" mechanism? Sure it'd be nice to blow off the post office but they'd do squat unless they're compensated for their services.
Same thing holds true with web-hosting and all the costs that it entails. You can't just magically wave your arms and say that its a non-issue.
This makes no logical sense whatsoever. They are two separate things. By your logic there is no such thing as hosting, bandwidth, delievery and so on (even though the reality clearly shows otherwise.
To put in in realworld terms:
When someone sends mail to someone and put it in the mailbox, don't someone put a stamp on it? A stamp which someone paid for because the post office requires such payment for their "hosting and delivery" mechanism? Sure it'd be nice to blow off the post office but they'd do squat unless they're compensated for their services.
Same thing holds true with web-hosting and all the costs that it entails. You can't just magically wave your arms and say that its a non-issue.
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Reply #41 Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:03 PM