Ripping question...
Thursday, August 15, 2002 by Nomad529 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
~ I'm fairly new to actually creating skins. I used to modify ones I downloaded to better suit my needs. Only recently have I started actually skinning. Trying at least... Anyway, my question is:
Is a screenshot of something you're working on, which uses elements from other artists, considered a rip?
~ I'm waiting on permission from certain authors before I post what I've been working on, but I'd love to post a screenshot to get some feedback on it. Is this allowed or would I be cursed to fiery pits of Hell for doing so?
Is a screenshot of something you're working on, which uses elements from other artists, considered a rip?
~ I'm waiting on permission from certain authors before I post what I've been working on, but I'd love to post a screenshot to get some feedback on it. Is this allowed or would I be cursed to fiery pits of Hell for doing so?
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bakerstreet
Reply #2 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:15 AM
Reply #2 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:15 AM
Many skinners are very open to requests to modify thier work, it is always worth a try. So many don't bother to ask that it is refreshing when someone finally does.
Screenshots are great way to show skills, get bragging rights, and not steal from folks.
Screenshots are great way to show skills, get bragging rights, and not steal from folks.
Jafo
Reply #3 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:32 AM
Reply #3 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:32 AM
Just make sure that walls in particular are sufficiently 'obscured' to prevent their 'easy' re-use as walls from your screenshot.....in other words, partly obscure the wall...[you should be, anyway, as it's a 'screenshot' of a desktop, not a blank wall space...
jebland
Reply #4 Friday, August 16, 2002 10:05 AM
Reply #4 Friday, August 16, 2002 10:05 AM
Bakerstreet--How does that work when you have updated a skin? Do you send the pieces to the original author? It doesn't seem like you could post it under your own name. Just curious. Think "Breal Windowblinds"
bakerstreet
Reply #5 Friday, August 16, 2002 10:16 AM
Reply #5 Friday, August 16, 2002 10:16 AM
Depends on who you work with. Some might want you to let them upload it, but I think many people wouldn't mind you uploading it with the proper credit, both in the comment and in the readme.txt in the files themselves. I've done both.
jebland
Reply #6 Friday, August 16, 2002 10:21 AM
Reply #6 Friday, August 16, 2002 10:21 AM
Thank you for your response. I would probably get into trouble anyway with a windowblinds skin with the XP Menu, when I don't have XP to test it on.
Z71
Reply #7 Friday, August 16, 2002 12:42 PM
Reply #7 Friday, August 16, 2002 12:42 PM
bakerstreet, don't kill me for saying this, but thats a little vague. I have literally 100's of other peoples skins that I could upload that I have updated for myself. All I have to do is give proper credit. The best thing to do is get author permission. I just think it's respect for the artist. This site would start getting flooded with updates. 
bakerstreet
Reply #8 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:08 PM
Reply #8 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:08 PM
Z71, I can't reach you, fear not...
no, you really have to get their permission first, credit or not. Even if you credit them, according to copyright law the creator of a work has the *exclusive* right to decide whether or not derivative works can be made, and who is allowed to create those works. If you go ahead and distribute them without first letting them decide, you have violated that right. You might get away with it, but if they don't want it done, they can cause you trouble to whatever degree they are personally inspired to.
no, you really have to get their permission first, credit or not. Even if you credit them, according to copyright law the creator of a work has the *exclusive* right to decide whether or not derivative works can be made, and who is allowed to create those works. If you go ahead and distribute them without first letting them decide, you have violated that right. You might get away with it, but if they don't want it done, they can cause you trouble to whatever degree they are personally inspired to.
bakerstreet
Reply #9 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:10 PM
Reply #9 Friday, August 16, 2002 1:10 PM
p.s. the only addendum to that is when the derivative work is done for a journalistic or scholarly study, and then the amount of work you can reference is limited in scope. Skins fall under neither category, anyway.
paxx
Reply #10 Friday, August 16, 2002 2:02 PM
Reply #10 Friday, August 16, 2002 2:02 PM
To come back to the original question, I would think more proper to wait until you get the permission before you upload the screenshot. The reason is that doing so puts pressure on the original artist. He's placed in a situation where if he refuses he publicly looks like the bad guy, where really it's is own right to refuse without it becoming public information.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
Nomad529
Reply #11 Friday, August 16, 2002 3:47 PM
Reply #11 Friday, August 16, 2002 3:47 PM
~ Thanks for all the input everyone, but I think you're misinterpreting the question. I wasn't planning on posting an updated or modified version of an original them. I was talking about an original theme which uses some elements from other themes/artists, whether modified or in their original form.
bakerstreet
Reply #12 Friday, August 16, 2002 4:41 PM
Reply #12 Friday, August 16, 2002 4:41 PM
Nah, we get ya.
and a screenshot is fine, just say who made what. Screenshots are for everyone, users and artists. If you distribute the theme though, and it uses elements from other artists' work, it isn't an original work, and would need permission from all the artists you borrowed from, no matter how much you change.
and a screenshot is fine, just say who made what. Screenshots are for everyone, users and artists. If you distribute the theme though, and it uses elements from other artists' work, it isn't an original work, and would need permission from all the artists you borrowed from, no matter how much you change.
Z71
Reply #13 Friday, August 16, 2002 4:44 PM
Reply #13 Friday, August 16, 2002 4:44 PM
bakerstreet, yes, that is all true. I was just making a small point incase Raistlin (who might be new) might get the wrong idea. To your point Raistlin, yes you can use other elements as long as there not the original graphics. For example. if I create a start button that looks like a unicorn, can other people use it? No, they have to get my permission. Does that mean no one can use another unicorn? Sure they can as long as it doesn't look like mine. Be original. If you could clarify a little more on the term(using some elements) that might get your question a little better response. just trying to help!!!
Nomad529
Reply #15 Friday, August 16, 2002 6:23 PM
Reply #15 Friday, August 16, 2002 6:23 PM
~ Some 'elements' I used are: menu headers/middles/endcaps; amp buttons; VWM buttons; a graphic from the start menu of a WB them; icons, obviously. Some of these things are as the original artist made them...some I have modified. I'm working on my own original objects but, in the meantime, I wanted a complete and usable theme. I have the utmost respect for the original artists and have no intention of claiming their art as my own. I have already sent emails off requesting permission to use/alter/modify their skins/themes/icons and post my work once done. I even sent screenshots. I have yet to receive any response from them. I only hope that, me being new to all this, I go about it all the right way and not piss anyone off. I just wish the artists would respond to my emails so I wouldn't have the Fiery Pits of Hell looming in the foreground.
bakerstreet
Reply #16 Friday, August 16, 2002 7:30 PM
Reply #16 Friday, August 16, 2002 7:30 PM
As long as you don't distribute anything you haven't gotten permission to distribute, you'll be fine. IF it isn't yours, ask, if they don't answer, use something else or nothing at all.
I'm not sure where all the 'hell' stuff comes from. It's like mp3's. There is a debate on whether sharing them is legal, but there is NO debate whether it's right to claim to be the artist that perfomrmed the song... I don't like OS ports for the same reason. In elemetary school art class it is understdood that your don't take down someone else's drawing, cut it up, , put your name on it, and put it back on the wall... at least without collaborative permission.
No offense to anyone concerned, i'm just not following the 'Pits of Hell', stuff. It seems like the same logic you use anywhere else in life to me, i dunno why it would seem greyer here.
I'm not sure where all the 'hell' stuff comes from. It's like mp3's. There is a debate on whether sharing them is legal, but there is NO debate whether it's right to claim to be the artist that perfomrmed the song... I don't like OS ports for the same reason. In elemetary school art class it is understdood that your don't take down someone else's drawing, cut it up, , put your name on it, and put it back on the wall... at least without collaborative permission.
No offense to anyone concerned, i'm just not following the 'Pits of Hell', stuff. It seems like the same logic you use anywhere else in life to me, i dunno why it would seem greyer here.
bakerstreet
Reply #17 Friday, August 16, 2002 7:35 PM
Reply #17 Friday, August 16, 2002 7:35 PM
p.s. I'm not accusing anyone of differing with me, either, just simplifying my point.
grayhaze
Reply #18 Friday, August 16, 2002 8:39 PM
Reply #18 Friday, August 16, 2002 8:39 PM
The main thing to remember here is that a great deal of this issue is governed by law, not just good manners. Any derivative works should never be distributed without the original author/artist's permission, and that even includes screenshots as far as I'm concerned. The problem with screenshots is that they can in turn be 'ripped' by someone else, who will then post a screenshot, and so on. This introduces the risk that any credit given to the original author could be lost along the way.
In general, it's much safer and much more satisfying to create every part of your work yourself. If you really feel the need to take someone else's graphics and use them in your own, then you need to do everything in your power to gain permission from the original artist. If you don't get a response, no matter what the reason may be, that means you don't have permission.
I tend to be very strict about people using parts of my work in their own after a lot of hassle in the past with people ripping from both my original skins and modified versions which have done the rounds as screenshots. However, if someone goes through the right channels and appeals to my better side, more often than not I'll give the go ahead.
Just to clafify one last time, even screenshots of modified skins can be considered as copyright infringments under law. It just comes down to how willing the original artist is to follow up any such breaches, and in the current climate of careless ripping that's becoming more and more likely.
In general, it's much safer and much more satisfying to create every part of your work yourself. If you really feel the need to take someone else's graphics and use them in your own, then you need to do everything in your power to gain permission from the original artist. If you don't get a response, no matter what the reason may be, that means you don't have permission.
I tend to be very strict about people using parts of my work in their own after a lot of hassle in the past with people ripping from both my original skins and modified versions which have done the rounds as screenshots. However, if someone goes through the right channels and appeals to my better side, more often than not I'll give the go ahead.
Just to clafify one last time, even screenshots of modified skins can be considered as copyright infringments under law. It just comes down to how willing the original artist is to follow up any such breaches, and in the current climate of careless ripping that's becoming more and more likely.
bakerstreet
Reply #19 Friday, August 16, 2002 9:05 PM
Reply #19 Friday, August 16, 2002 9:05 PM
grayhaze: no, i would have to disagree. The implication of a desktop screenshot has never been "I made this." There are countless websites, in and outside of our community, wherein people post screenshots of their current desktops, and none in my experience have ever required or implied that it was the uploader's work. In customization there are the artists and the users, and the screenshot section has always been the place for users to post their desktop customization. Screenshots are even a tool against ripping, the more exposure, the more commonly known who the artist is. Trying to say that a "My_Desktop" image is stealing is akin to an automotive company suing you for posting an image of yourself standing next to your car, with the excuse that it would sreve as a guide for people to steal the design.
I believe as much as anyone in the seriousness of this, but imho to limit people from sharing screenshots is an extreme that would do more harm than good.
I can think of nothing more thankless than trying to call end-users rippers for posting screenshots of their desktops, when most of the time they are lauding our work by doing so. You have to draw a line, and the people who enjoy our work is a step too far. If their screenshots are ripped by those too infantile to make their own skins, then take it up with the ripper. There are *no* preventative measures that can be taken to stop someone from ripping beyond letting people know whose work is whose, and screenshots are the greatest tool to do that.
I believe as much as anyone in the seriousness of this, but imho to limit people from sharing screenshots is an extreme that would do more harm than good.
I can think of nothing more thankless than trying to call end-users rippers for posting screenshots of their desktops, when most of the time they are lauding our work by doing so. You have to draw a line, and the people who enjoy our work is a step too far. If their screenshots are ripped by those too infantile to make their own skins, then take it up with the ripper. There are *no* preventative measures that can be taken to stop someone from ripping beyond letting people know whose work is whose, and screenshots are the greatest tool to do that.
bakerstreet
Reply #20 Friday, August 16, 2002 9:13 PM
Reply #20 Friday, August 16, 2002 9:13 PM
I will say, though, that anyone who does so *should* state the provenance of the work they used. To my knowledge, though, there are no copyright laws limiting the personal use of an item one posesses, unless there is a EULA to that effect. Screenshots of mixed and matched skins, even mixed and matched elements (properly credited) do more to educate than harm, IMHO. If they are distributed without permission, then by all means make an example out of them in the harshest terms. The whole idea of limiting one's freedom to use something to prevent them from an act they may or may not do in the future is troubling to me, not unlike the various soft and hardware copyright enforcement strategies. I think they only punish people who weren't going to commit a crime in the first place, anyone else can do it regardless of the preventative effort.
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Reply #1 Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:47 PM
P.S. What you are doing is the best way to learn how to skin...