Seeking good MSStyle skinners.
Tuesday, June 4, 2002 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
(Reposted from a related thread)
Do we have anyone here who is able to do professional quality ports of WB skins to MSStyle format? If we can get a few people doing quality official ports of our skins, the rippers will be out of action and will have to use some creativity for a change.
Although I'm no fan of the format, and I consider it largely inferior to WB, I'd be perfectly willing to work with someone to get at least a basic port of metalX done. Ports of my other skins are also up for grabs.
My only criteria would be that I have to have final say on any changes that need to be done, and that the person has the abilities and manners required to make a worthwhile port. I'd also only consider offers from people who can demonstrate their abilities through previous official ports or original skins.
Do we have anyone here who is able to do professional quality ports of WB skins to MSStyle format? If we can get a few people doing quality official ports of our skins, the rippers will be out of action and will have to use some creativity for a change.
Although I'm no fan of the format, and I consider it largely inferior to WB, I'd be perfectly willing to work with someone to get at least a basic port of metalX done. Ports of my other skins are also up for grabs.
My only criteria would be that I have to have final say on any changes that need to be done, and that the person has the abilities and manners required to make a worthwhile port. I'd also only consider offers from people who can demonstrate their abilities through previous official ports or original skins.
DavidK
Reply #2 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 8:17 PM
Reply #2 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 8:17 PM
I tried to convert SETI green just to see how limited MSStyles really was. It was a joke... The format doesn't support anything except Luna style skins, no plugins, no extra buttons, no repositioning the buttons, severe limitations on border sizes and shapes, etc. etc.
The guys who say they prefer MSSTyles because it's simpler aren't kidding... it's just straight Windows with no customization other than colors and textures. It's a shame to give that group any more credibility than Britny Spears wallpapers and photo skins, which is about as far as it goes if they don't have other artists to rip off.
I understand your thought Grayhaze but I think you would find it generated even more rips, almost like saying it's okay to copy WB skins. Some of them don't seem to get the basic idea about "copying" being wrong.
The guys who say they prefer MSSTyles because it's simpler aren't kidding... it's just straight Windows with no customization other than colors and textures. It's a shame to give that group any more credibility than Britny Spears wallpapers and photo skins, which is about as far as it goes if they don't have other artists to rip off.
I understand your thought Grayhaze but I think you would find it generated even more rips, almost like saying it's okay to copy WB skins. Some of them don't seem to get the basic idea about "copying" being wrong.
Alexandrie
Reply #3 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 8:46 PM
Reply #3 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 8:46 PM
if you port your skin, you will just let those users have access to modify it easier. It will be worst than ever, imagine tons of your metalX with different buttons or some stuff modified. I'm telling you they want their own version to say I made it, not only distribute. They always ask who is the best author, when major of them only do ports.
paxx
Reply #4 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 10:17 PM
Reply #4 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 10:17 PM
Hum, I think it's a good idea.
That's alos what a lot of Mac icon artists have decided to do now: since they icons were ripped to the Windows platform, they decided to port it themselves in order to control the port.
If you port your WB skins to Styles XP yourself or commission somebody to do it, then their argument becomes invalid anymore. All you have to do is write in the description of your MS Styles "This is the ONLY authorize port of Metal X. Enjoy!". I think this should calm a lot of detractors.
That's alos what a lot of Mac icon artists have decided to do now: since they icons were ripped to the Windows platform, they decided to port it themselves in order to control the port.
If you port your WB skins to Styles XP yourself or commission somebody to do it, then their argument becomes invalid anymore. All you have to do is write in the description of your MS Styles "This is the ONLY authorize port of Metal X. Enjoy!". I think this should calm a lot of detractors.
Chris
Reply #5 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 10:42 PM
Reply #5 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 10:42 PM
Actually, I agree with Alexandrie. While providing an authorized version may satisfy some, that doesn't really solve the overall problem which is really an issue of behavior and skill.
If you look at the various threads at the other place, you'll see that many are not satisfied with a standard port. They'll want to modify it regardless of the intent of the original artist.
Providing an approvied port will exacerbate the problem by providing them with yet more fodder (in an even more easily digestible format) for their l33t ports.
Until they change their behavior and increase their skills/creativity with developing altogether new themes, the problem will continue.
If you look at the various threads at the other place, you'll see that many are not satisfied with a standard port. They'll want to modify it regardless of the intent of the original artist.
Providing an approvied port will exacerbate the problem by providing them with yet more fodder (in an even more easily digestible format) for their l33t ports.
Until they change their behavior and increase their skills/creativity with developing altogether new themes, the problem will continue.
paxx
Reply #6 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 11:06 PM
Reply #6 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 11:06 PM
Which is also the opinon that Mac artists had of Windows icon rippers, not necessarely unjustified either. But porting themselves their icon to Windows seemed to serve their purpose. A lot of the ripping stopped from the moment those nice icons were available from a "official" source.
Frogboy
Reply #7 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 11:26 PM
Reply #7 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 11:26 PM
Ripping of mac icons stopped? If anything, it's sped up. Once someone does a port, then people start ripping the port like crazy.
GreenReaper
Reply #8 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 12:24 AM
Reply #8 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 12:24 AM
OK. This is the way I see it: grayhaze would like his skin to be usable by as many people as possible. He is not willing to have his skin ripped, however. The question is, is it better to port, and possibly encourage modification of that port but at least have an authorised version, or to prevent all official ports/rips and have perhaps a few unofficial versions floating around?
I can't help feel that the whole point of skinning is to let people see and use your skins. The more people who can use a skin (and like it), the more sucessful it is. MetalX has already been proven to be popular - people would like to have it on their windows.
Of course, I'm in the position of having gone the other way - "Blackcomb" is a fully authorised port of the msstyle by mterlouw (with additions and modifications, notably AJCrowley's Start panel). The result was very positive - Blackcomb even made the WB distribution. Porting can work, when there is respect on both sides.
I think it's only right that those in the WB and msstyle communities support one another - and if good skin authors can increase their reach while doing so, so much the better! If that means skinners who want to porting skins that are portable, I say go for it.
I can't help feel that the whole point of skinning is to let people see and use your skins. The more people who can use a skin (and like it), the more sucessful it is. MetalX has already been proven to be popular - people would like to have it on their windows.
Of course, I'm in the position of having gone the other way - "Blackcomb" is a fully authorised port of the msstyle by mterlouw (with additions and modifications, notably AJCrowley's Start panel). The result was very positive - Blackcomb even made the WB distribution. Porting can work, when there is respect on both sides.
I think it's only right that those in the WB and msstyle communities support one another - and if good skin authors can increase their reach while doing so, so much the better! If that means skinners who want to porting skins that are portable, I say go for it.
paxx
Reply #9 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 6:22 AM
Reply #9 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 6:22 AM
Frogboy: ripping the particular Mac icons that were ported to PC have stopped when an official PC version was released by the author.
Frogboy
Reply #10 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 12:30 PM
Reply #10 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 12:30 PM
Well sure, that's akin to saying that fighting stopped once the one side surrendered.
So are you suggesting that people surrender to the demands of people who want something ported or face ripping?
I would prefer that the original authors be able to choose whichever way they want and have their rights respected.
Moreoever, official icon ports are still stolen and distributed in pieces all the time. The original author has a lot less control of a port.
So are you suggesting that people surrender to the demands of people who want something ported or face ripping?
I would prefer that the original authors be able to choose whichever way they want and have their rights respected.
Moreoever, official icon ports are still stolen and distributed in pieces all the time. The original author has a lot less control of a port.
grayhaze
Reply #11 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 4:00 PM
Reply #11 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 4:00 PM
Rippers will never respect the rights of original authors, so making official ports is simply making the best of a bad situation.
I'll always strive to protect my intellectual property and copyrights, but the fact is that one person can only do so much. I can stop one rip through a couple of days of investigation and mailing cease and desists, but during that time two more potential rips may have come into being.
In the end, I consider the creation of official ports to be the only way to slow the rippers down. Of course there will be those people who take the official port and make their own rips from it, but if the quality of the original port is high enough very few people will need to do so. One obvious shortcoming of the MSStyle format is the lack of a way to create colorized versions without making a whole new theme. So make sure that the official port contains variations based on the most popular colors.
It's all very well denying people a port of a popular skin time and time again, but in the end it does little to no good. I'm considered the 'bad guy' by a large proportion of the MSStyle 'community' because I'm willing to stand up for myself, and that's incredibly mentally and emotionally exhausting. The only way to fix the situation is to show at least a little cooperation, and then perhaps we'll start to see some of the respect that's so lacking at the moment.
I'll always strive to protect my intellectual property and copyrights, but the fact is that one person can only do so much. I can stop one rip through a couple of days of investigation and mailing cease and desists, but during that time two more potential rips may have come into being.
In the end, I consider the creation of official ports to be the only way to slow the rippers down. Of course there will be those people who take the official port and make their own rips from it, but if the quality of the original port is high enough very few people will need to do so. One obvious shortcoming of the MSStyle format is the lack of a way to create colorized versions without making a whole new theme. So make sure that the official port contains variations based on the most popular colors.
It's all very well denying people a port of a popular skin time and time again, but in the end it does little to no good. I'm considered the 'bad guy' by a large proportion of the MSStyle 'community' because I'm willing to stand up for myself, and that's incredibly mentally and emotionally exhausting. The only way to fix the situation is to show at least a little cooperation, and then perhaps we'll start to see some of the respect that's so lacking at the moment.
MarkMcQ
Reply #12 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:35 PM
Reply #12 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:35 PM
I'm just looking at the subject line, 'good MSStyle skinners'.
From what I've witnessed over at Neowin, surely that's a stunning example of an oxymoron....
From what I've witnessed over at Neowin, surely that's a stunning example of an oxymoron....
Frogboy
Reply #13 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:42 PM
Reply #13 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:42 PM
I'm just saying why appease rippers at all? Good sites don't allow rips to stay on.
GreenReaper
Reply #14 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:55 PM
Reply #14 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 5:55 PM
Because the reason there are rippers at all is that people want to use the skins. They have a skinnable OS - they don't want to have to pay another $20 for the privilege.
davad70
Reply #15 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 11:04 PM
Reply #15 Wednesday, June 5, 2002 11:04 PM
I don't really think this can do anything but help the situation with the msstlye "skinners". Most of them already think that WB skinners are elitists who think that our skins are too good to be ported. Of course our skins are better..because they're WB skins. There are some very good skinners there. Not many, but there are a few.
IMHO arhra is the best, and he expressed interest in porting one of my skins before, so maybe he'd be interested.
IMHO arhra is the best, and he expressed interest in porting one of my skins before, so maybe he'd be interested.
bmetelsky
Reply #16 Thursday, June 6, 2002 1:40 AM
Reply #16 Thursday, June 6, 2002 1:40 AM
What I have witnessed with one of the sites popular with "msstyles" folks is that someone finds a WB skin that they want, make the port, show it to people on the bulletin boards (many with an apparent lack of conscience), talk about how great it will be but that they don't have permission yet, sometimes encourage others to obtain permission for them, taunt that they might release it with or without permission for various sundry reasons, and then release it - with or without actual permission. In general, I have not noticed more than a handful of people on those boards with a projected sense of values such as honesty or integrity.
I believe that if a skinner wishes to port their skins to something other than WB then by all means they should do so. I don't think that anybody should do so with the intention of appeasing others or in the hopes that it will curb rips. Rips are the work of thieves. Holding the thieves accountable is one way to curb the problem. Another way is to model appropriate behavior and values and hope that some of it "rubs off". I am a firm believer in both models.
Just my two cents.
I believe that if a skinner wishes to port their skins to something other than WB then by all means they should do so. I don't think that anybody should do so with the intention of appeasing others or in the hopes that it will curb rips. Rips are the work of thieves. Holding the thieves accountable is one way to curb the problem. Another way is to model appropriate behavior and values and hope that some of it "rubs off". I am a firm believer in both models.
Just my two cents.
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Reply #1 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 8:03 PM