This push, against these centres of ripping needs to be cast wider....notifying the other 'real' skinning sites of the problem....making sure that sites such as skinz, Devart, skinbase, Custo, [and the others as they come back on line]...all help with this spreading of awareness...

Alexandrie, I'm sorry this keeps happening

I've emailed this Chase guy, though after Jafo's masterpiece I doubt it's necessary

Chase Venter: "...does not appear to use your scroll bar in Internet Explorer..."

Zathrus: "...Dumbass..."

Excuse me, did I just see "kuro5hin" and "intelligence" in the same sentence? Surely not!

Here's the email I sent to our new buddy Chase:

"You should be aware of the fact that the Visual Style called "PreLuna" by Neodescis, is a shameless rip of a skin originally created by Johanne "Alexandrie" Cheiné. Neo has admitted to this several times before. Ms. Cheiné is a very respected member of the digital art community, and as such, this violation of her intellectual property will not be tolerated. Please, do the right thing and remove the offending piece. I don't believe that there's a malicious intent on Neo's part, but the fact remains: He's violating the law, and so are you and your host by allowing the style to remain up."

His less-tan-polite response:

"Neodescis is a respected member of his community, and as such, his right to create his own independent works will be upheld. I have told you bastards time and time again - there are very few similarities between their themes. Have any of you armchair pundits bothered to actually LOAD his damned theme and compare it to hers, or are you using screenshots as blind faith?"

Here's the response I'm sending him:

"Neodescis is a respected member of his community,"

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

"and as such, his right to create his own independent works will be upheld."

Yes, that's all well and good, except for one little thing: It's not his "own, independent work." He's even admitted he ported Alexandrie's skin even though he didn't have permission to do so.

http://board.iexbeta.com/cgi-bin/ib2/topic.cgi?forum=17&topic=204

"I have told you bastards time and time again -"

Wow, you're just a class act through and through, huh?

"there are very few similarities between their themes. Have any of you armchair pundits bothered to actually LOAD his damned theme and compare it to hers, or are you using screenshots as blind faith?"

Hmm... Let's see....

Neo's visual style looks like a cheap knockoff of Alex's skin. It's named after Alex's skin. Neo posted admitting to have done it as a port of Alex's original. I don't know what straw you're trying to grab at here, pal. If this was a courtroom, you'd be laughed out of it. We have a thief who openly admitted to stealing someone else's work. How you dare defend that boggles my mind.

I'm posting this here so I can address everyone at once. In light of the link provided to me by FIrestorm, I think that by my own standards I've been required to remove Pre Luna from my site as a preliminary measure until the time at which further investigation reveals the situation otherwise. I was a bit challeneged in dealing with the mass of commentary I was getting on the subject as I was already having to deal with optimization and getting new servers for my site (it's pulling over 8 Megabytes per second at some times).

By my own visual evaluation, the themes still do appear to be very different, so I question your intentions. However, I cannot ignore the fact that Neodescis does appear to nonchalantly admit to his intentions.

I was obviously in the wrong this time.

Chase

Thanks for removing it. Like I said, I don't perceive any malice from Neo's intentions (he's had nothing but compliments for Alex's work), but when you put days or weeks into the creation of an original work, it's incredibly hurtful to see someone else grab control over it away from you, regardless of whether they think it's an homage or not.

I just love happy endings...

cool! thanks, finnaly

Damn...
And I just penned all of this to him as an email....
Oh well...it should maybe convince him to keep it off...

Chase...
Simply put...if you compare the 'j-luna.png' with the 'Styleluna.jpg'...out of those 4 shots you sent, the similarity is self-evident to anyone who knows skinning and how to skin.
The scroll bars and buttons, as well as the colour band treatment in the top bar are obviously derived works. This is no coincidende of creation, but a 'copy' that has not had consent to be publicly broadcast, and is therefore in breach of copyright.
I'm in the wrong OS/drive at the moment, so I can't link you to a very good article on copyright law...but I have the printout.....here you go...

http://www.whatiscopyright.org/copyright.html

Please do read this and understand that all that is being asked for is a unilateral respect of artists' work from each and every graphic site, both old and new.

If your aim is merely to promote OS customizing and making more people aware of the fun/pleasures of skinning, etc...you have to be totally upright and sensible with your treatment of an already existing and flourishing community of digital/graphic artists.

Please note that we are not all justa bunch of kids playing smart-arses on the net....In fact, most of the True 'fathers' of skinning are in their 30's and 40's.

Yes, most of the 'users' are young....but the skinners are not [necessarily].

Now, when a person uploads a skin to your site, and he 'pays homage' to another skinner whose work 'inspired' him, it's a perfect opportunity for you to ask him...'did you get consent?', If he says no, or even yes, but with no included text file to that effect....you can tell him to get consent, or it is not displayed on your site.
This is standard common practice with skinners and skinning.

Why on earth do you think we are making a big issue about this?
For fun?.....something to while away the time?
No.
It's because we respect each other's work and their inherent rights.

When you come to see that this is an all-important part of this community's interaction, you will be equally quick on the uptake to uphold artists' copyrights too...

Any Q's....give me a shout....
Cheers,
Paul Martin
JAFO [Just Another F***ing Observer]
Admin Wincustomize.com, and Pixtudio.com [Alexandrie's and treetog's own site]




-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Venters
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:08 AM
To: [email protected]

Subject: Oops, forgot screenshots


Attached.

j-preluna.png is by Johanne; n-preluna.jpg is by Neodescis.

-------------
Chase Venters
-------------
Director TUCB Technologies Corporation [www.tucb.com]
Editor in Chief BoomGames Interactive [www.boomgames.com]
-------------


EDITED to hide email addy etc...

Here's another email...to and fro.....I guess I should have read this one first....


Chase...
I only just read this one...after responding in the other to the screenshots.

Yep...
I screwed up....I didn't check the validity of the claims of 'porn' being available on your site.....my mistake.
I didn't go looking for it, either.

As to the rest of it....well, looks like I was just a little too late....you obviously have caught up with the rules of artists' copyright and have found your stance to be a little 'tenuous'.
I am glad that you have removed the offending 'rip'.
Thankyou...

No, Stardock is not [to my knowledge] at all concerned about a freeware reg hack that can do slight changes to XP's appearance.
But I DO believe that Stardock, along with all of the other skinners who existed in this community well before stylesxp or msstyles or XP or your site's interest in same, ARE concerned about this cavalier attitude to copyright and its theft.

I will take your advice, as you have suggested I may like to post this on our message board at Wincustomize.com, but would you also be happy for me to post its content on every skinning site of which I am a member, [having been a skinner since before each and every existing skin site existed]?
I personally am not embarrassed by my stand on this issue.

By the way....of one thing you are definitely in error in your tirade.
I am NOT Johanne's 'crony'.
I am her friend.
There IS a difference. Please do not insult me, or Johanne with such comment.
It is both inflamatory and defamatory.
I understand the Queen's English, and know the correct meaning of 'crony'.
You may wish to check its meaning, and formally apologise to both myself, and Johanne, and others included by the phrase.

Regards,
Paul Martin
JAFO
Just Another F***ing Observer

-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Venters
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:07 AM
To: [email protected]

Subject: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


Let me warn you in advance that I'm going to be very BLUNT and DIRECT in
this e-mail. I've about had it with you and the rest of Johanne Chaine's
cronies.

First of all, before you do a damned thing, download Pre Luna by Johanne and
Pre Luna by Neodescis and install them both. I've attached the two
screenshots I've been provided with as basis to compare the themes. You will
find VERY FEW similarities, and if you zoom in and compare bitmaps used to
make the themes, you'll find that they were recreated and are not in fact
direct rips of any sort.

One thing you should know as well.... I am WELL aware of the thread on the
WinCustomize message board regarding the dealings with my site, and have
been keeping a close eye on it. I think it's very clear from reading that
document that some of you don't know what is going on, and others are simply
going to charge in blindly out of respect for Johanne.

My personal favorite:

-------------------------------------
Grrr...time for me to start kicking some arses.

These little morons have not heard the end of this.

Either they concede they are in breach of a legally enforcable copyright, or
their ISP removes their site either for that, and/or for having
'pornography' accessible to minors...

One way or another, this will end...
-------------------------------------

Your perception of pornography is also as challenged as your perception of
copyright law. Actually, I take that back... you could have a valid
definition of pornography, but that would mean you haven't looked through
our site. Which is it?

I have given screenshots from both themes to several people for their own
evaluation. Not only have all of them dismissed even the mere IDEA that by
any stretch of imagination would Neodescis's theme be an example of a
rip/port/copy of Johanne's work, but that the only clear similarity is in
the style of ART. I suspect that you personally have not chosen to install
Neodescis's theme, so you cannot tell me otherwise.

Let me share with you some relevant speculation. It appears that StyleXP is
really rocking your boat over there in the WindowBlinds fence... StyleXP is
not only much simpler and free but much less CPU intensive than your own
worshipped product. I'm sure any one of you bastards would do anything
possible to see StyleXP come to an end, because you see the threat it
represents.

You should know that you are not going to warp my perception of things by
sending "official" sounding e-mails, threatening letters, or contacting my
host. You're also not going to get anywhere by rounding up members of your
WinCustomize forums and having them send their own "official" e-mails to
make it appear there is a greater volume of people upset by the issue.

The first e-mail I got in regards to this situation threatened to have my
site deleted. That was absolutely brilliant on the author's part, because
everyone knows that a quantifiable threat such as site deletion will make
someone divorce their spouse if necessary. Seriously though, what were you
bastards thinking? Did you think we would not INVESTIAGE your claims,
rather, accept them blindly?

Not only that, you and her other cronies have repeatedly refused to produce
any graphical evidence that shows Neodescis's work is in fact an example of
copyright infringement. Rather, I've been assaulted with blanket threats and
a stockpile of general misunderstanding. We played ball with you on Lost
Souls because it was more clear that work was in fact an example of
copyright infringement. Yet, even after providing many members of your
community with a handy copy of our copyright policy, including the procedure
to follow in order to confirm copyright infringement and have the offending
work removed, you've abandoned all logic and gone "full steam ahead" taking
the same actions you have before.

I find it disturbing as well that there are miscellaneous references to
members suggesting "flood"(s) and "bomb"(s) of e-mail to my site, as well as
your references to changing OS's so you can "nuke these little kiddies". Wha
t you have PERSONALLY done can be considered HIGHLY MALICIOUS, and I will
gladly spend a few more hours of my time going through logfiles to look for
evidence... should I reveal any, I will forward it along with a fair
description of what is happening to your internet service provider, and you
may soon find yourself in a VERY ACTIONABLE POSITION.

You're going to claim all day that the theme of Neodescis constitutes
copyright violation. Let me stir up a hypothetical situation in hopes you
see the light. Suppose that I start a band - the first band ever, in fact,
to play heavy metal. You listen to my band and are inspired - you like what
you've heard. So you go along and produce your own CD - eight songs that are
chiefly your own, but it is clear that they share the style I pioneered. Do
you get charged with copyright infringement?

NO.

If you are to have any hope of me removing the theme in question, you're
going to need to provide graphical evidence that it does indeed constitute
copyright infringement. Oh, and as is the norm, I'm carbon-copying my host
on this message. I want them to know what is going on well in advance.


P.S.: Post this e-mail, in its entirety, with the included screenshots, on
your beloved site. Front page, back page, forum, toilet, doesn't matter. I'm
granting you that right.

-------------
Chase Venters
-------------
Director TUCB Technologies Corporation [www.tucb.com]
Editor in Chief BoomGames Interactive [www.boomgames.com]
-------------


Again, email links removed to keep the peace.

Sigh. This is very odd stuff here. If push comes to shove, I could simply post Neo's emails to me in which is explicitly says that his Preluna is a derivative of Alexandrie's.

I also have email from him asking for permission to use her artwork. Alexandrie also has email from him asking for permission. He was not granted that permission.

I am not sure why Chase is being so obtuse on this, this should be an open and shut case. Neo called his skin PreLuna, he has said his skin is a derivative of PreLuna with his additions being to the Start menu (though using some of Alexandrie's other skins for that too I believe). These are not being contestd.

The title bar button images and push button images are pixel for pixel the same. The title bar image is identical (though I didn't compare them exactly but they certainly violate trade dress rights let alone copyright).

Rips are a form of warez. Is this what he wants for his site? I am trying to understand his position but it's almost as if he's just being this way because he's annoyed at feeling like he's under seige (I know that feeling, the Kaleidoscope people did it to me on occasion over WindowBlinds.net and I was very tempted at times to call their legal threats bluff).

But this is very straight forward. If he's going to be this way when it's obvious, what about when skins are less obvious? LIk ewhen someone rips just the push buttons or title bar buttons or scrollbars? That's the type of insidious ripping that the Kaleidoscope people got mad about and we're not even tlaking stuff like that here, this is good old fashioned "Rip the whole thing and added a Start bar".

Like I said, I think he's just ticked off. He's obviously not familiar with WindowBlinds (skins don't use "CPU power" and WB uses less memory and is capable of running much much simpler, lighter skins ala UIS1+. And in terms of "Bloat", a typical WindowBlinds skin can do more and is only around 50K to 100K, a typical msstyles ZIP file is 300k to 800k but I digress).

Ultimately, mad or not, it really comes down to ethics. If he's ethical, he'll pull the skin. If not, he won't and his site will simply be known as a quasi-warez site). And it'll demonstrate that I and other shave been right, that msstyles advocates are much more likely to be warez type people than mainstream users.

Yes....well, after one or ten more emails, I have given up.....beating my head against a brick wall only hurts your head....as mine does right now.

Just keep a watchful eye on sites such as this one and go through all of this again, the next time it happens...

Here is the last of it...[I hope]

Oh for God's sake...just admit your stand was wrong.
The ripper admitted he used Johanne's work without permission.
You don't need further evidence after a guilty plea.

If and when you ever aspire to have friends of your own, you may discover they are somewhat different to 'lackeys' or 'footmen'.
I see some form of envy here that there actually are people in this world who are worthy of friendship and self-less concern.

Fuck it...
Just get your Neo...wanker whatever his name is to try porting my BlindJAFO-X WB skin....that should tax his abilities....if he can do it he can have the damn thing.

I am finished with this, and you.

I was polite in all my direct dealings with you...I stressed to others that nothing is achieved by flaming anyone.

Believe me....you are going about this whole thing in exactly the wrong way.

If I could get Winamp.com calling me a clusterfuck, I'm sure you can call me that, too.
Same reasons...
Arguing about copyrights and property theft.
Oh, yeah, I won that one....and now they [finally] have instigated a ripping notification policy...long overdue considering they were one of the first proggies ever to facilitate 'skinning'.

Enjoy your life.

And you may quote me....
"The problem with mankind is that he is too intelligent to realise just how stupid he really is."


-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Venters
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:18 PM
To: Paul Martin...JAFO
Subject: RE: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


You take a lot of these issues up for people that can't speak english?

People that can't properly express themselves?

People that can't say "your site will be deleted if you don't delete this
theme" in one way or another?

Forgive me, pal, but I don't take kindly to anyone's footmen sending
"official" e-mails with threats to my site, especially when those e-mails
lack the content necessary for me to correctly deal with a situation.

Beating around the bush seems to be your forte... I'd ask for lessons but
I'm afraid I'd never make it through the disclaimers.

I have to admire your backtracking though, re-naming a term "nuke" which in
computer lingo typically refers to a denial of service attack to a verb
which simply means "e-mailing".

I willingly took down the theme because someone finally followed my bloody
instructions and sent me some kind of proof that the theme constituted
copyright infringement. Amazing that with as many mercenaries as Johanne
hired it took this long. Perhaps she needs another agent.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Martin...JAFO [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:10 PM
To: Chase Venters
Subject: RE: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


No....try 'friend'
We respect those who are worthy of it.
If you actually took a closer look at Johanne and what she does/has done for
the skinning community, you would probably have a lot more respect for her
too.
I take on these issues on behalf of some people because English is NOT their
first language, and they feel frustrated trying to explain their case
clearly.
I refer to lots of people as kiddies, as I ain't so young as I used to be...
BTW....'nuke' referred to 'emailing'.....I didn't have Outlook set up on the
other drive, that is all...

-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Venters
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:03 PM
To: Paul Martin...JAFO
Subject: RE: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


Hmm. Perhaps to clarify, can we take it as said that a more appropriate word
might have been "servant", "lackey", or "henchman"?

Oh shit, no time to finish this e-mail, I got to boot another OS so I can
get my email and nuke 'these' kiddies!


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Martin...JAFO [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:02 PM
To: Chase Venters
Subject: RE: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


crony n.[C] infml esp. disapproving a close friend or someone who works
with a stated and usually dishonest person in authority.
Cambridge International Dictionary of English.
But I didn't need to check that....
I am aware if its use, and intent.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chase Venters
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 3:55 PM
To: Paul Martin...JAFO
Subject: RE: Johanne and the Pre Luna skin


My handy copy of Merriam-Webster calls "crony" 'a close friend especially of
long standing'. Do you take offense to this definition?

Again...email addy deleted.

this guy is really weird.

Yes your not kidding. What I am still frustrated about is the Still Questionable Logonui's on their site. I say they are (That some) are Pornographic, and is unacceptible to have them available for download where Minors can easily Access them.

Or is this just me ? am I the only one that cares whether they can do this or not !

Unless they're breaking the law, it's their business. If they want to have porn or near porn up, it's legal right?

Jafo - you certainly hung in there... nice job. The guy is a little too distracted with himself to understand what you're saying, unfortunately.

Since when are images from magazine ads considered 'porn'? I didn't see anything that wasn't either a standard celebrity or fashion photo. Porn implies explicit sexual content, not nudity. Even nudity would be an inapropriate term for the few images of women I saw there. Don't go to any art museums, fashion shows or movies if you're shocked that easily.

The only 'objectionable' thing about the images on that site is the total disregard for intellectual property. It's fair to assume that none of the photos were taken by the folks that are posting them, and that none of them are authorized for redistribution.

Porn is defined as an Image or Action that is designed to offend.Just because Adverts get more daring these days it is only because Social Moral issues are obviously in decline. What people considered as unacceptable say 30 years ago or more is obviously different to what it is now.

Consider this, in the Victorian times, Women were not allowed to show anything higher than their knee's or Ankel !! slowly things progressed and 'Nude' Women in those times began to appear on photographs. But there out look on Pornography was still quite different to what it is now.

Where do you draw the line before the rights of the individual is no longer protected. Just because there is a Audience for this with certain people. Then All I would say that is right only in its place, where concenting Adult members can do these things with the tolerances of the Law.

Not where anyone can access it. If you think a picture of Pamela Anderson lying on her back ripping her under wear off, and showing all her cleavage is not a Sexual action and is not pornographic then I'll eat my hat.

Ok another Logon Picture I saw was of Jennifer Aniston naked lying on the floor showing her bum off.

So your telling me that she would apprieciate this picture being availble for download as a Logonui or any thing other. Does this protect her rights as an individual ? I mean ok she is an Actress. But it is so clearly obvious what the Picture entails.