Skin Applications - where do we go from here?
Wednesday, October 31, 2001 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Does anyone get the impression that customization SOFTWARE (not talking about skinning itself) is starting to slow down in terms of development? Sure, individual programs continue to move forward with new versions (WindowBlinds, Hoverdesk, DesktopX, Litestep, etc.) but we haven't seen a lot of NEW skinnable programs recently it seems (well there's ObjectBar and CursorEX) but generally speaking, things like Chroma and KJFoL and other things that were really innovative at the time have gone by the wayside.
Where do you think things will go to next? One thing I can tell you, and I hope jorge from Winstep is reading this as he knows what i"m talking about intimately, it is going to be MUCH harder for future progrmas to get as widespread as the current generation. That's because the main download sites are now owned by a single source and they're trying to find ways to generate revenue to cover their expenses (the .com boom is over for sure) and one way they're looking at doing it is charging for listings (much like Yahoo does now) as well as for highlighting and such. So it would be much harder for a new Stardock or new Winstep to get its start.
But where do you think things should go from here? What would you like to see next?
Where do you think things will go to next? One thing I can tell you, and I hope jorge from Winstep is reading this as he knows what i"m talking about intimately, it is going to be MUCH harder for future progrmas to get as widespread as the current generation. That's because the main download sites are now owned by a single source and they're trying to find ways to generate revenue to cover their expenses (the .com boom is over for sure) and one way they're looking at doing it is charging for listings (much like Yahoo does now) as well as for highlighting and such. So it would be much harder for a new Stardock or new Winstep to get its start.
But where do you think things should go from here? What would you like to see next?
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craeonics
Reply #2 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:40 AM
Reply #2 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:40 AM
Layered skinning (duh, been yelling that for years). Separate frondends for apps so it becomes possible to build totally customisable guis. And more of that advanced stuff. Hmm, someone should write a windowmanager for Windows (sort of like WindowBlinds on steroids).
Transmutate
Reply #3 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:09 AM
Reply #3 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:09 AM
that brain link sounds interesting! 
...what we need is....ummm.....i'll have a think and come back!
(i'm happy with my desktop for the next 24 hours or so
)
...what we need is....ummm.....i'll have a think and come back!
(i'm happy with my desktop for the next 24 hours or so
)
TasT
Reply #4 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:33 AM
Reply #4 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:33 AM
I think the next step would be to put programs Like skin Studio on steriods and to slow down a bit and get to the documentation.
I have been with WB and DX pretty much since the beginning and skining the apps is fairly simple for me since I have been able to grow with the formatts but, I think new people to the community are turned off when they open up a UIS file and look at all the jiberish. Also even growing with the formatts I beleve that some of us are (definatly me) are missing some things that could make our skin much better..
So I vote for documentation before any more apps..
(note: putting things into sks is great but the hard docs need to be there too.. Sks is kinda like a good WYSIWYG html editor, it's great for many things but you still need to get under the hood with a text editor sometimes)
I have been with WB and DX pretty much since the beginning and skining the apps is fairly simple for me since I have been able to grow with the formatts but, I think new people to the community are turned off when they open up a UIS file and look at all the jiberish. Also even growing with the formatts I beleve that some of us are (definatly me) are missing some things that could make our skin much better..
So I vote for documentation before any more apps..
(note: putting things into sks is great but the hard docs need to be there too.. Sks is kinda like a good WYSIWYG html editor, it's great for many things but you still need to get under the hood with a text editor sometimes)
XX
Reply #5 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:25 PM
Reply #5 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:25 PM
heh well. i havent been making much programs lately. latest is xxamp. btw its not skinnable even if it has xx prefix.
Jafo
Reply #6 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:22 PM
Reply #6 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:22 PM
TasT is right.....highly detailed RTFM's to RTFM would enable everyone, old and new to lift their game and explore 'undocumented' unexplored terrain.
Dilligent reading of ALL of the LiteSTEP RTFM's makes 'STEPping quite simple [provided you remember all that RTFM]...but there is just soooo much reading to be read.
To get more 'new' people into skin creation, they are going to lack any developmental 'history' [eg. as I do with LS....going back to b21/23], so a lot of hand-holding is required to bring them up to speed.
So, more RTFM's are the go...
Dilligent reading of ALL of the LiteSTEP RTFM's makes 'STEPping quite simple [provided you remember all that RTFM]...but there is just soooo much reading to be read.
To get more 'new' people into skin creation, they are going to lack any developmental 'history' [eg. as I do with LS....going back to b21/23], so a lot of hand-holding is required to bring them up to speed.
So, more RTFM's are the go...
Jafo
Reply #7 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:25 PM
Reply #7 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:25 PM
http://www.thebrain.com
The Brain.com link....worth a look just to see something a bit 'different'....
The Brain.com link....worth a look just to see something a bit 'different'....
TasT
Reply #8 Thursday, November 1, 2001 8:26 AM
Reply #8 Thursday, November 1, 2001 8:26 AM
why do all the threads and NG posts about Stardock writing documentation for their products seem to die a quick death?
TasT
Reply #10 Thursday, November 1, 2001 9:07 AM
Reply #10 Thursday, November 1, 2001 9:07 AM
Crae: I think documentation will go along way to ensure the health of the skinning community. To skin one must have the info on how to skin.
Dangeruss
Reply #11 Thursday, November 1, 2001 11:29 AM
Reply #11 Thursday, November 1, 2001 11:29 AM
What I'd like to see is what would amount to either a totally new program or a partnership with Adobe to allow all parts of the standard Adobe GUItobe skinnable. Imagine a toolbar that was user configurable and more. I expect neither to happen.
There is room for a stand-alone freeware app that is good replacement for Sysmeter2. Sure you can do that with DesktopX or Hoverdesk to a certain extent, but neither are freeware and require loading a bit more than a system monitior.
A good, complete file manager program that's skinnable, much like the old 3D-FTP program.
A simple, easy to use skinable calendar. Rainlendar is close, but not well known or too easy to skin. Calenz is just silly if you ask me.
Coolplayer with CD support.
A skinnable Control Panel replacement style app would ne interesting.
From Stardock, a color manager like 3DColorChanger that provides interactive preview and application of Windows Colors.
What we don't need:
Clocks - Sticky note type apps - XP clones...
There is room for a stand-alone freeware app that is good replacement for Sysmeter2. Sure you can do that with DesktopX or Hoverdesk to a certain extent, but neither are freeware and require loading a bit more than a system monitior.
A good, complete file manager program that's skinnable, much like the old 3D-FTP program.
A simple, easy to use skinable calendar. Rainlendar is close, but not well known or too easy to skin. Calenz is just silly if you ask me.
Coolplayer with CD support.
A skinnable Control Panel replacement style app would ne interesting.
From Stardock, a color manager like 3DColorChanger that provides interactive preview and application of Windows Colors.
What we don't need:
Clocks - Sticky note type apps - XP clones...
Xymantix
Reply #12 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:11 PM
Reply #12 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:11 PM
I agree with Russ on the SysMeter 2 replacement. Rainy - the guy who wrote Rainlender has one that's looking pretty good. Check out http://gamma.nic.fi/~rainy/Rainmeter.html
Also, if you want a free MP3/CD player that's nicely skinnable and a great alternative to CoolPlayer - check out QCD Player: http://www.quinnware.com/ One of the nicest things about it is that it's being ACTIVELY (yes, I was yelling!) developed!!
Also, if you want a free MP3/CD player that's nicely skinnable and a great alternative to CoolPlayer - check out QCD Player: http://www.quinnware.com/ One of the nicest things about it is that it's being ACTIVELY (yes, I was yelling!) developed!!
Frogboy
Reply #13 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:17 PM
Reply #13 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:17 PM
Actually, try this sometime:
Load up System Meter and then load up DesktopX with a System Meter type object. DesktopX actually uses fewer resources.
Load up System Meter and then load up DesktopX with a System Meter type object. DesktopX actually uses fewer resources.
skinner7892
Reply #14 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:42 PM
Reply #14 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:42 PM
Here's my take: the next major winner of the innovation race will be the one that will offer something that comes closer to the human way of thinking, read here: spacialization. Since the PC is born we've been confronted with 2D OS interface that slowly evolved into a desktop metaphor with multilayered capabilities. It's been that way since years for many reasons (costs, hardware requirements, productivity, etc.). But since the humain brain is more efficient when it finds itself into a 3D environnement where spacialization concept comes into play, this will be the next inevitable major step to look at.
I believe its *now* the time more than ever to focus on this avenue and for many reasons:
- PC runs at blazing speeds
- 3D capable video cards are now fast, cheap and vastly accessible
- DirectX is now fully part of the OS
- People are used to computer generated 3D (games, movies, etc. ) and they love it
- Its the next *gold rush* era (personal opinion)
Now my vision is this: For now, don't put a full size 3D shell over Windows because this will cost lots of resources. Instead, find a way to have a 3D navigation console somewhere that uses "skinnable" or customizable environnements, pretty much the same way we decorate our houses and places. To illustrate my idea, imagine a "The Sims"-like environnement where you could build your 3D space and place objects (files, etc.) where ever you want! Ok, I may be a dreamer but I'm pretty confident that this would be a hit!
Since i'm not a dev, I just can't do it myself but if I were, thrust me this would be my personal project from the upcoming months! Of course, I have other ideas in my bag but I think it's enough for now Let's start the debate
I believe its *now* the time more than ever to focus on this avenue and for many reasons:
- PC runs at blazing speeds
- 3D capable video cards are now fast, cheap and vastly accessible
- DirectX is now fully part of the OS
- People are used to computer generated 3D (games, movies, etc. ) and they love it
- Its the next *gold rush* era (personal opinion)
Now my vision is this: For now, don't put a full size 3D shell over Windows because this will cost lots of resources. Instead, find a way to have a 3D navigation console somewhere that uses "skinnable" or customizable environnements, pretty much the same way we decorate our houses and places. To illustrate my idea, imagine a "The Sims"-like environnement where you could build your 3D space and place objects (files, etc.) where ever you want! Ok, I may be a dreamer but I'm pretty confident that this would be a hit!
Since i'm not a dev, I just can't do it myself but if I were, thrust me this would be my personal project from the upcoming months! Of course, I have other ideas in my bag but I think it's enough for now
Let's start the debate
paxx
Reply #15 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:49 PM
Reply #15 Thursday, November 1, 2001 12:49 PM
Actually, allow me to disagree. 2D is a lot more productive than 3D. Oh sure, 3D is cool, but having to walk across a room, open a 3D filing cabinet to open a document or walk to the 3D library to open Word is a lot longer than just double-clicking on an icon.
To use your analogy of the real environment we live in, just consider the success of the remote control (2D), as opposed to having to walk to teh telivision set to change the channels (3D)...
To use your analogy of the real environment we live in, just consider the success of the remote control (2D), as opposed to having to walk to teh telivision set to change the channels (3D)...
skinner7892
Reply #16 Thursday, November 1, 2001 1:09 PM
Reply #16 Thursday, November 1, 2001 1:09 PM
That's a very good point you bring on paxx and I must admit you're forcing me to find arguments What could I answer to that...? Well, maybe this: using the desktop metaphor, what is more productive: having all your papers and books pilled up on the desk, like a 2D desktop, or having them classified on a bookself, in drawers, etc. (3D)? Of course, on a desk, you keep the minimum stuff necessary for fast retrival. But those things you want to classify for later consultation, what are you more likely to do? And how do you retrieve this info later? Your brain would surely call-up the "spacialization departement" to tell you for example that the book is in the upper shelf on the right side, near the cooking books.
Btw, I would like to use this post to precise my 3D idea: I just gave a suggestion that could be applied to any type of concept. The 3D space could simply be a 3D desk, for example. My point was to let everybody create the environment they want and customize it the way they want. Not forcing them to get what we want them to have. The same concept behind the skinning idea: freedom!
What could I answer to that...? Well, maybe this: using the desktop metaphor, what is more productive: having all your papers and books pilled up on the desk, like a 2D desktop, or having them classified on a bookself, in drawers, etc. (3D)? Of course, on a desk, you keep the minimum stuff necessary for fast retrival. But those things you want to classify for later consultation, what are you more likely to do? And how do you retrieve this info later? Your brain would surely call-up the "spacialization departement" to tell you for example that the book is in the upper shelf on the right side, near the cooking books.Btw, I would like to use this post to precise my 3D idea: I just gave a suggestion that could be applied to any type of concept. The 3D space could simply be a 3D desk, for example. My point was to let everybody create the environment they want and customize it the way they want. Not forcing them to get what we want them to have. The same concept behind the skinning idea: freedom!
JayG
Reply #17 Friday, November 2, 2001 1:03 AM
Reply #17 Friday, November 2, 2001 1:03 AM
manuals good. without docs how can you fully exploit what we already have?
my monitor is 2d so 2d interfaces make sense to me. did anyone ever make a 3d shell?
my monitor is 2d so 2d interfaces make sense to me. did anyone ever make a 3d shell?
Jafo
Reply #18 Friday, November 2, 2001 7:06 AM
Reply #18 Friday, November 2, 2001 7:06 AM
Flip...the 3D thingie has been done already.....6 or 12 months ago or so.....some of us checked it out...got it going....thought Gee-wizz...and it disappeared into obscurity.
Someone might have the link.
I can't even remember what it was called...
Someone might have the link.
I can't even remember what it was called...
Melchizedek
Reply #19 Friday, November 2, 2001 7:35 AM
Reply #19 Friday, November 2, 2001 7:35 AM
For the sysmeter replacement, I use Skinmem - a free program.
It is still a new program being developed, so if you want something added that it doesn't already have, you could ask the author.
http://www.skinbase.org/skinmem/
It is still a new program being developed, so if you want something added that it doesn't already have, you could ask the author.
http://www.skinbase.org/skinmem/
paxx
Reply #20 Friday, November 2, 2001 9:19 AM
Reply #20 Friday, November 2, 2001 9:19 AM
Yes, Jafo, I downlaoded it then. It was cool, we all went WOW! But it didn't ake long to find it too much of a pain to have to walk across two rooms to go check you email! I'll try to check if I can find the link...
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Reply #1 Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:02 AM
Replace some of the now 'ho-hum' with the then 'gee-wizz'. We need some sparks of something new....not new colours.....not new XP 'flavours', but just more things that DON'T look like a Microsoft/Windows Operating system, [even if it is] and definitely not just another Mac/Linux/BeOS/Whatever 'failed' OS system 'ported' to make-pretend.
I mean something NEW.
Has anyone ever seen 'the Brain'?
It's a proggy that has been around for some years....certainly different....very much NOT a typical Windows/Office/Explorer interface.
There was a 3D interface that died and sank into the swamp....
Virtual 3D environments, etc...imersive interaction, etc....
Maybe new blood and new thinking is needed....and I don't mean WinAMP 3 re-hashes of a WinAMP 2....but different thinking....
I'll hunt up that 'Brain' link....