Ego and the skinning community
Tuesday, October 23, 2001 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Over the weekend, I had been called names by dozens of people over in discussions on DeviantART. Jier began the festitivities by responding to Skin Primer that I wrote, on my own time mind you, for the community. For that effort, Jier called me "worthless" and said I was worse than Sam (the guy who owns eFront). Jier finished by saying he was going to dedicate himself to making freeware equivalents of everything in Object Desktop.
Bear in mind, Jier is supposed to be one of those "respected" members of the community. This isn't some random guy behaving like that. This is the guy who runs 545 Studios.
Then he went on to critique my article on XP skinnning (https://www.stardock.com/stardock/articles/xpskinning.html). Amongst accusing me of lying, he fabricated a story that I had made claims that were untrue and created a thread on DA called "545 vs. Stardock". After quite a number of people came on proclaiming how awful they think I am (with a few people standing up for me at least) but with more people trying the moral equivalence angle which as people at the office knows, really bugs me. In most arguments, somebody is right and somebody is wrong (or at least more right than the other). Jier was wrong. Dead wrong. Completely wrong.
Meanwhile, l0c used his high access here to post a news item here. His access here allows his news submissions to bypass moderation. His news item accused TGTSoft of commiting a crime. This could be considered libel. And it became more obvious how much of a problem the news item was when the anti-Stardock contigency made the valid point that it sure looks bad having a Stardock owned site have a news item that accuses a competitor of a criminal act. So I responded and said that I would be deleting the news item in a few hours if there were no objections. A few hours later I did.
So then I woke up the next day to hear about being called a Nazi by l0c - Jier's roommate.
What would people have me say in response? I felt that a line had been crossed. And usually I could see the other person's point of view even if I don't agree with it. But this was beyond that. l0c, like Jier, was wrong.
I didn't know what to say in response. When adding up all the crap from over the weekend I needed a couple of days of introspection. Every virtual community has its own character.
For instance, the warez site that has been sending the rather nasty people to our site attacking us has a lot of really awful human beings on it. People who just don't abide by the ethical or moral standards that we take for granted. And I don't say that lightly. It was like a mirror universe of our community.
Or at least, I'd always assumed that our community was made up of generally good people. Sure, Paxx and myself might debate some point. Or Plastic and I may have a different perspective. But at the end of the day, a difference in opinion doesn't mean a difference in integrity.
Which brings me back to the post. By the time I got in, it was too late to just delete it without people seeing it. So I had to decide whether to defend myself or remain silent. Obviously the latter choice was the one I went with.
The "community" can be identified by a collection of discrete actions. The regulars define it. How would the community respond to something that was so blatently wrong?
Someone asked how I have been personally handling the abuse I've received of late. Well I'm human. For a moment I really wasn't sure if this "community" was something I wanted to be part of.
Take a step back for a moment. Shoggot asked, who hasn't done something really nasty during their years? I'd like to think most of the people I'd consider friends would never create a new post on one of our skin sites that existed soley to hurt someone else. I don't think most of you would.
What kind of community do we want to be? Arguing issues or disagreeing on things is normal. But some things are wrong. Some things are bad. Deeds considered acceptable by the community reflect on that community.
Our community doesn't accept warez on its sites for instance. That reflects well on us(I think anyway). And I'd like to think we don't accept people calling other people "worthless" or "Nazis" or worse. Or hopefully we don't accept trying to argue moral equivalence, that someone the person being attacked might have somehow deserved of this.
The good news seems to be that most people don't accept that. Certainly not here anyway. And our community is more united than it appears on the surface. The relationship between the admins of DeviantART and WinCustomize is extremely close.
But there is also a clash of cultures in our community. You could almost call it a fundamentalist movement within it that is ugly and nasty and it I think we just witnessed for the first time a clear rejection of it. That no one, regardless of who they think they are has the right to make viscious personal attacks on other members of the community.
I hope this incident lets us turn the corner, that civility will be considered a defining virtue as much as how many skins we make, or how much software we make.
Let me say as a software developer that being a software developer doesn't make me or any other developer more important or better than the skin authors or people who write FAQs or help people on the groups. We are all important parts of the community and we all deserve respect.
That's my little novel for the night.

Reply #2 Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:40 PM

Reply #3 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:26 AM

Reply #4 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:33 AM

Reply #5 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 1:54 AM
which is where I'm going for my two hour sleep shift, and reading this really helped me zzZZzzZ

Reply #7 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 2:56 AM
I went through something very similar to this a few weeks ago on another board (where I'm a *much* more active member). I was the recipient of personal attacks for an opinion I had on something. I feared that the board would quickly deteriorate into some sort of horrible bash-fest, which scared me since I was one of its founding members and cared greatly about its disposition.
As it turned out, though, what happened was a polarization of sorts. First, several members of the board rushed to my defense, and themselves got flamed by the few who had started the name-calling. When I composed myself enough to respond (i.e., when my blood-pressure fell back down to acceptable levels), I did so, in as calm and rational a manner as I was capable of. My failure to jab back at those who attacked me seemed to incense them even further, and it just went on for several days. Finally, enough of the members spoke out against their behavior that they shut up, and several of them left.
What resulted was a much stronger sense of community there. The rules were more clearly defined; no one had to guess anymore at what was acceptable and what wasn't. And through it all we all realized that our vision of what that board was supposed to be had also been more clearly defined, and we were all much happier with what it had become.
Judging from your response, and from the responses to it, I think it's likely that the same thing will happen here. And perhaps that's what this place really needs: a more strongly defined sense of what the "community" is all about. And maybe *that's* the corner we'll turn.
Anyway, I just wanted to say you have my support, not just in your actions and responses concerning this matter, but in the maturity and presence of mind you've shown throughout this situation. I know how tempting it can be to "hit back", and how much more effective it is to keep a cool head.

Reply #8 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 3:01 AM

The story was exactly the same as what I have read on the net and what I have seen. No missing parts. Was good to read it all in one coherent piece.
Reply #9 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 8:55 AM
By the way, does the "ego" in this thread's title stand for you (ego = I) or self-centeredness of people?
Reply #11 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:14 AM

In fact at the store the other day, Juni and I saw the Corporate Machine. We were like little schoolkids jumping up and down and saying "Hey we know that guy! He's cool!"
Anyway, I just wanted to show my support here.

Reply #12 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM
Reply #13 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 2:25 PM
The people on there are so vile and so hateful (at least the vocal regulars) that it's almost unbelievable. Nearly every post is full of profanity, threads of violence, graphics.
Their primary moderator created an animated GIF that is a little guy with a sign that says "I hate Stardock" and gives people the finger. This is a board admin mind you. And he created a post called "I encourage everyone to do this".
That's why I think what we have here is special. The people in the skin community, and particularly the regulars are good, honest, ethical people.
Reply #14 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 3:35 PM
Reply #17 Wednesday, October 24, 2001 3:58 PM
)I'm going to forbid aggression. We'll all have so much repressed anger, it'll be out of control.
Reply #18 Thursday, October 25, 2001 9:26 AM
that, plus a nice warm lap to sleep on, and a well trained human who knows just the right places to scratch
and of course chocolate!!!
feline wonders if JavaBrain is offering
Reply #19 Thursday, October 25, 2001 9:39 AM
Just wait until I rule the world (that's on my Christmas list this year )
I'm going to forbid aggression. We'll all have so much repressed anger, it'll be out of control.
as long as you can present a suitable plan for dealing with all this repressed energy (perhaps chocolate pills?) then i may be convinced to lend you the world for a while
feline admires my certificate of world domination / ownership
Reply #20 Thursday, October 25, 2001 9:49 AM
that is what was really nice about this place when it first appeared. there were friendly people, no great weight of history, and no active minefields to try and dodge.
it significantly lowered the *issues* with entry, making it a very attractice place to hang out. having got the feel of the place and settled in i feel that i am in a more solid position to ride out the storms.
healthy debate, even if it is a little unbalanced
is one thing, and adds character to the place. what look like personal vendeta's ripping the place appart are a totaly different thing, and personally i would love to see the back of them.feline wishes more people could learn to distingush between people's opinions and the people them selves
people should be respected as people, even if you have differing opinions. i mean, its no good me taking issue with people just because they are the wrong species, it is hardly their fault

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Reply #1 Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:02 PM
and this is an excellent thought...
"I hope this incident lets us turn the corner, that civility will be considered a defining virtue as much as how many skins we make, or how much software we make."
I think we're all ready for that.