Bye bye WinCustomize
Monday, October 1, 2001 by Snowman | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
In light of the plans for resctricting users full use of this site I'm sad to say that I no longer can see myself as a user/supporter of this site anymore!
To bad though, just as I was getting like the site!
But I cannot support a site that expect you to empty your wallet at the frontdesk before using the site!
I just can't stop wondering about how all the other sites manage to stay alive without "paying" customers. And don't bring up the impressive logs you show off each month as an reason. Other sites are able to show equal logs at the end of the month, so that's not the reason for these restrictions!
Community site, my foot! *PUH*
I really hope the future users of Wincustomize also will upload their great art to the other (FREE) skinsites!
Snowman turns around and walks away!
(Might peak in to check for responses)
To bad though, just as I was getting like the site!
But I cannot support a site that expect you to empty your wallet at the frontdesk before using the site!
I just can't stop wondering about how all the other sites manage to stay alive without "paying" customers. And don't bring up the impressive logs you show off each month as an reason. Other sites are able to show equal logs at the end of the month, so that's not the reason for these restrictions!
Community site, my foot! *PUH*
I really hope the future users of Wincustomize also will upload their great art to the other (FREE) skinsites!
Snowman turns around and walks away!
(Might peak in to check for responses)
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paxx
Reply #22 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 7:04 AM
Reply #22 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 7:04 AM
OK, I just saw his comment saying it's "the later"...
Hum... hum... hum...
paxx having a conscience case here...
This theoretically means indeed that WC is charging for content.
OK, I'll have to wait and see how this is really implemented. Right now, I must say that I don't agree with the idea. I'll have to debate this with my conscience...
Hum... hum... hum...
paxx having a conscience case here...
This theoretically means indeed that WC is charging for content.
OK, I'll have to wait and see how this is really implemented. Right now, I must say that I don't agree with the idea. I'll have to debate this with my conscience...
gorman
Reply #23 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 7:53 AM
Reply #23 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 7:53 AM
Last thought before I go to bed. Again, I'm bringing up every point I can so that when the system launches it can be as perfect as possible.
As paxx said, WC is basically charging for content. This is fine, however, we have to look at who created the content. The users. This is why I never thought charging for downloads on a skin site would work; mainly because it isn't fair to the users. Unless the users who upload get some sort of a cut, they are kind of getting screwed over. Even worse, imagine this: a user uploads a Winamp skin, then they go to try & download their own skin & find they can't because they've already downloaded 5MB. That would turn nasty. I'm sure you've thought of this, and I know you think this is the best idea, but I'm really starting to think it is not.
-gorman
As paxx said, WC is basically charging for content. This is fine, however, we have to look at who created the content. The users. This is why I never thought charging for downloads on a skin site would work; mainly because it isn't fair to the users. Unless the users who upload get some sort of a cut, they are kind of getting screwed over. Even worse, imagine this: a user uploads a Winamp skin, then they go to try & download their own skin & find they can't because they've already downloaded 5MB. That would turn nasty. I'm sure you've thought of this, and I know you think this is the best idea, but I'm really starting to think it is not.
-gorman
Dangeruss
Reply #24 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 8:36 AM
Reply #24 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 8:36 AM
Hmmm. Ever belonged to a club or hobby association? Members provide the content, atmoshpere and do all the administration, yet pay dues to belong and cover the club's expenses.
Some members come for the news, some for the company, and some for just the snacks, but everyone pays the same dues. They often sell t-shirts, stickers, hold contests (with entry fees) to boost the coffers.
Taken in that context, what's the difference between this site and a hobbyist club? We gather, share, converse, and form a community. You guys toss the word community around as if that means that *anyone* should have unlimited access to the group's resources. To use the club analogy again, if you ran a club, and week after week, hundreds of non-dues paying visitors took all the goodies you'd provided, grabbed all the freebies and split without adding anything to the group or the experience, how long do you think it would be until you made it a "private" club?
Some members come for the news, some for the company, and some for just the snacks, but everyone pays the same dues. They often sell t-shirts, stickers, hold contests (with entry fees) to boost the coffers.
Taken in that context, what's the difference between this site and a hobbyist club? We gather, share, converse, and form a community. You guys toss the word community around as if that means that *anyone* should have unlimited access to the group's resources. To use the club analogy again, if you ran a club, and week after week, hundreds of non-dues paying visitors took all the goodies you'd provided, grabbed all the freebies and split without adding anything to the group or the experience, how long do you think it would be until you made it a "private" club?
paxx
Reply #25 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 9:32 AM
Reply #25 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 9:32 AM
There are alternatives.
Limit daily download for everyone, not in Megs, but in number. Something like a limit of 5 skins per day.
Heck, why not even take advantage of the status system implemented here? 5 skins per class level. For example:
Guest: no go. Rgister to download.
Citizens: 5 skins per day
Apprentice: 10 skins per day
Journeymen: 15 skins er day
etc.
Just an idea, and it doesn't involve payment, it involves participation and contribution, which is fair.
My 2 cents.
Limit daily download for everyone, not in Megs, but in number. Something like a limit of 5 skins per day.
Heck, why not even take advantage of the status system implemented here? 5 skins per class level. For example:
Guest: no go. Rgister to download.
Citizens: 5 skins per day
Apprentice: 10 skins per day
Journeymen: 15 skins er day
etc.
Just an idea, and it doesn't involve payment, it involves participation and contribution, which is fair.
My 2 cents.
T-Man
Reply #26 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 10:32 AM
Reply #26 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 10:32 AM
At this point nothing is set in stone. We are still throwing around different ideas trying to come up with the best solution. The idea is to try and make a system that is fairly seamless to the users while at the same time limiting download bandwidth for those who abuse it and not taking away from those who are casual downloaders or new to the site.
And when we do start to implement such a system I'm sure that we will perform many tweaks in order to get the system working well. And another scenerio is to only use this system during peak hours. So there are many options we can do, its just a matter of finding the perfect blend.
Also, to address Gormon's question on WinCustomize generating OD sales....Though its pratically impossible to tell for sure how many sales WinCust may have generated for Object Desktop I can say that from the start of WinCustomize.com that sales have been very steady.
I'm sure that WinCustomize has helped generated OD sales but we are not seeing any significant change in figures to show it.
So even with OD sales I would say that WinCustomize.com still is not a profitable entity.
And when we do start to implement such a system I'm sure that we will perform many tweaks in order to get the system working well. And another scenerio is to only use this system during peak hours. So there are many options we can do, its just a matter of finding the perfect blend.
Also, to address Gormon's question on WinCustomize generating OD sales....Though its pratically impossible to tell for sure how many sales WinCust may have generated for Object Desktop I can say that from the start of WinCustomize.com that sales have been very steady.
I'm sure that WinCustomize has helped generated OD sales but we are not seeing any significant change in figures to show it.
So even with OD sales I would say that WinCustomize.com still is not a profitable entity.
feline
Reply #27 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 10:57 AM
Reply #27 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 10:57 AM
to go back to an earlier figure, how accurate are the numbers "5% of users are taking 80% of bandwidth"?
i think there are two "views" here, one that is thinking lots of "average" users will be impacted, and one that thinks only a very small number of "very heavy" users will be impacted.
or to put it another way, what percentage of users is the initial cap expected to effect? if stopping 6 users (silly extream i hope) solves the bandwidth problem, then this sounds radically different from statements that imply 50% of users will be effected.
i think there are two "views" here, one that is thinking lots of "average" users will be impacted, and one that thinks only a very small number of "very heavy" users will be impacted.
or to put it another way, what percentage of users is the initial cap expected to effect? if stopping 6 users (silly extream i hope) solves the bandwidth problem, then this sounds radically different from statements that imply 50% of users will be effected.
feline
Reply #28 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 11:15 AM
Reply #28 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 11:15 AM
feline decides to press the "dont press that" button 
what are the definitions of "community" that are being used here?
re: paxx having a conscience case here...
personally i am not entirely sure how to define this word, but i am going to have a go.
it seems that there are basically 3 "groups" of people here:
a) people who post their work, and are active
people who dont post work, but are active in the message boards, ect
c) people who look and download only
feline puts on hard hat and ducks, just in case
when people say "community", which groups are they including?
i am currently in group b, but would like to consider myself part of the community.
it is sensible that most (to all) people in groups a and b started in group c, but i suspect that most people in group c never progress on to groups b and a. if there are 60,000 unique visitors a day (a figure that i remember from somewhere, probably wrong), what percentage of them are in group b? there dont seem to be many regulars on the message board, and a fair percentage of them seem to be in group a (an unfounded impression).
i seem to recall that in ancient greece to be a citizen (a member of that community) you were expected to make certain contributions. not an ideal parallel case, but still a parralel case / definition.
what are the definitions of "community" that are being used here?
re: paxx having a conscience case here...
personally i am not entirely sure how to define this word, but i am going to have a go.
it seems that there are basically 3 "groups" of people here:
a) people who post their work, and are active
people who dont post work, but are active in the message boards, ectc) people who look and download only
feline puts on hard hat and ducks, just in case
when people say "community", which groups are they including?
i am currently in group b, but would like to consider myself part of the community.
it is sensible that most (to all) people in groups a and b started in group c, but i suspect that most people in group c never progress on to groups b and a. if there are 60,000 unique visitors a day (a figure that i remember from somewhere, probably wrong
), what percentage of them are in group b? there dont seem to be many regulars on the message board, and a fair percentage of them seem to be in group a (an unfounded impression).i seem to recall that in ancient greece to be a citizen (a member of that community) you were expected to make certain contributions. not an ideal parallel case, but still a parralel case / definition.
kenray
Reply #29 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 11:44 AM
Reply #29 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 11:44 AM
check this out:
1) If having a skin site were a good marketing vehicle, then every application would have its own skin site.
2) Even if SD didn't point to other skin sites, it could simply have a database of say 35 "good" skins/themes that users could ...
Can you say "Music Match Jukebox"?
1) If having a skin site were a good marketing vehicle, then every application would have its own skin site.
2) Even if SD didn't point to other skin sites, it could simply have a database of say 35 "good" skins/themes that users could ...
Can you say "Music Match Jukebox"?
Frogboy
Reply #30 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 3:09 PM
Reply #30 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 3:09 PM
It is our belief that roughly 5% of the userbase uses a disproportional amount of the bandwidth. Out of this 5%, 3/4ths of them have not purchased anything.
A person who has downloaded 50 megs of stuff from WinCustomize needs to contribute in some way. It's as simple as that. It pains me to see people use the term "community" meaning "Let's spend someone else's money!"
So how can someone contribute?
1) As mentioned, anyone with Apprentice access or higher is going to be immunse to any system we create. Those are people we've identified as people who are contributing to the site in other ways. I'm not even sure anyone posting in this discusison has less than apprentice access.
2) They could buy a shirt, a CD, or hat.
3) They could register a Stardock product.
Those are the 3 main ways of contributing.
So who would be affected by any such bandwidth limitation system?
The user who doesn't upload skins, doesn't interact on the message board, hasn't registered any software, hasn't bought a shirt or CD, and has downloaded tons of megs of stuff. Where I'm from, that user would be called a leech.
I'm not sure how someone could argue that we should somehow pay for those people. We could start a leech fund where those who are for "free everything" can contribute to the fund to help pay for the bandwidth used by the leech base.
I'm not sure I understand Gorman's argument about how this site helps Object Desktop. It's irrelevant. A user would have plenty of opportunity to decide whether to purchase OD or not before any bandwidth limit would hit them.
Here's a clue: If anonymous leecher has downloaded 300 megs of DesktopX themes and WindowBlinds skins but hasn't registered -- they ain't gonna register it. We don't want those kinds of users here, they are costing us many thousands of dollars per month.
Why should we all in this discussion who have contributed to this site in some form have to deal with the site being slow as a pig so that anonymous leeches can come on with their auto downloaders and leech 100+ megs of stuff in a sitting?
A person who has downloaded 50 megs of stuff from WinCustomize needs to contribute in some way. It's as simple as that. It pains me to see people use the term "community" meaning "Let's spend someone else's money!"
So how can someone contribute?
1) As mentioned, anyone with Apprentice access or higher is going to be immunse to any system we create. Those are people we've identified as people who are contributing to the site in other ways. I'm not even sure anyone posting in this discusison has less than apprentice access.
2) They could buy a shirt, a CD, or hat.
3) They could register a Stardock product.
Those are the 3 main ways of contributing.
So who would be affected by any such bandwidth limitation system?
The user who doesn't upload skins, doesn't interact on the message board, hasn't registered any software, hasn't bought a shirt or CD, and has downloaded tons of megs of stuff. Where I'm from, that user would be called a leech.
I'm not sure how someone could argue that we should somehow pay for those people. We could start a leech fund where those who are for "free everything" can contribute to the fund to help pay for the bandwidth used by the leech base.
I'm not sure I understand Gorman's argument about how this site helps Object Desktop. It's irrelevant. A user would have plenty of opportunity to decide whether to purchase OD or not before any bandwidth limit would hit them.
Here's a clue: If anonymous leecher has downloaded 300 megs of DesktopX themes and WindowBlinds skins but hasn't registered -- they ain't gonna register it. We don't want those kinds of users here, they are costing us many thousands of dollars per month.
Why should we all in this discussion who have contributed to this site in some form have to deal with the site being slow as a pig so that anonymous leeches can come on with their auto downloaders and leech 100+ megs of stuff in a sitting?
gorman
Reply #31 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 4:25 PM
Reply #31 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 4:25 PM
Well, I'm going to drop out of this thread for now. My points are entirely being missed, and I don't have time to refresh this thread every 5 mins .
-gorman
.-gorman
Frogboy
Reply #32 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 5:18 PM
Reply #32 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 5:18 PM
I've read what you've written, Gorman.
With regards to "charging for content". WC isn't looking to be a profitable business, it is hoping that it doesn't keep costing thousands of dollars more per month than it brings in. SOMEONE has to pay for the bandwidth.
Stardock is willing to pay for (as Tandis put it) X amount of the bandwidth. Where X is greater than the bandwidth skinz.org used at its height. Right now though, the site uses X + Y bandwidth.
We have to get back to using just X bandwidth. This means limiting the downloads.
The 5 megabyte limit is mentioned as one example of many. Another example given by Paxx would be to limit the # of skins per month. Another would be to limit the # of megs per month. Is that limit 5 megs or 50 megs? That will depend on what it takes to get bandwidth under control. Maybe the limitation will only be on during peek hours (10am to 4pm EST). We haven't decided yet.
And NO, I can say for nearly certain that sales of OD or WB generated as a result of this site do not justify this site's existence. Not even by a long shot.
In my view and the view of everyone here I've spoken to it's simple: If you're downloading tons of stuff from here, you need to contribute in SOME way. We're not warez FTP site running on a college dorm room connection. And Again, for the 50th time, anyone who has apprentice access or higher would be immune. So most skin authors and message board contributors are not even going to be affected anyway. And that's because those people have contributed in other ways (postings, skins, etc.).
This shouldn't even be a debate. Someone hasto pay for the bandwidth. Stardock is willing to pay for that bandwidth up to a point. But if we want the website to be even remotely useable, we have to limit the megabytage being downloaded.
With regards to "charging for content". WC isn't looking to be a profitable business, it is hoping that it doesn't keep costing thousands of dollars more per month than it brings in. SOMEONE has to pay for the bandwidth.
Stardock is willing to pay for (as Tandis put it) X amount of the bandwidth. Where X is greater than the bandwidth skinz.org used at its height. Right now though, the site uses X + Y bandwidth.
We have to get back to using just X bandwidth. This means limiting the downloads.
The 5 megabyte limit is mentioned as one example of many. Another example given by Paxx would be to limit the # of skins per month. Another would be to limit the # of megs per month. Is that limit 5 megs or 50 megs? That will depend on what it takes to get bandwidth under control. Maybe the limitation will only be on during peek hours (10am to 4pm EST). We haven't decided yet.
And NO, I can say for nearly certain that sales of OD or WB generated as a result of this site do not justify this site's existence. Not even by a long shot.
In my view and the view of everyone here I've spoken to it's simple: If you're downloading tons of stuff from here, you need to contribute in SOME way. We're not warez FTP site running on a college dorm room connection. And Again, for the 50th time, anyone who has apprentice access or higher would be immune. So most skin authors and message board contributors are not even going to be affected anyway. And that's because those people have contributed in other ways (postings, skins, etc.).
This shouldn't even be a debate. Someone hasto pay for the bandwidth. Stardock is willing to pay for that bandwidth up to a point. But if we want the website to be even remotely useable, we have to limit the megabytage being downloaded.
Tarkus
Reply #33 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 5:33 PM
Reply #33 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 5:33 PM
Frogboy: I like your idea of a leech fund. Certainly anyone preaching that the site should have free, unlimited bandwidth for everyone would be more than willing to contribute to this fund. Otherwise, they'd be a hypocrite, and I'm sure that can't be true.
Snowman
Reply #34 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 7:04 PM
Reply #34 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 7:04 PM
Ok folks, to those of you who read the blabber that I posted earlier: FORGET IT!
I just had a long talk with one of the admins. He explained the whole thing to me nice and quitely.
And I'm not late to admit: I WAS WRONG!
My apologize goes to the team at WinCustomize and all it's users/supporters!
Snowman slaps himself with a HUGE trout!
Sorry!
I just had a long talk with one of the admins. He explained the whole thing to me nice and quitely.
And I'm not late to admit: I WAS WRONG!
My apologize goes to the team at WinCustomize and all it's users/supporters!
Snowman slaps himself with a HUGE trout!
Sorry!
BoXXi
Reply #35 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 6:45 AM
Reply #35 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 6:45 AM
I agree with everything Dangeruss said.
(never thought I would say that!)
(never thought I would say that!)
paxx
Reply #36 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 6:47 AM
Reply #36 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 6:47 AM
Well, the fact that Apprentices are excluded is excellent news. It basically means that if you can't support the site financially, you can support it with your participation and involvement, which is good.
I just think the term "leech" is a little exagerated. I don't feel like a leech because I visit CNN's site regularely even if I don't pay to have CNN from my cable provider, or MSNBC, or whatever. I don't feel like a leech because I download programs from Download.com all the time, mostly freewares. I agree a bandwidth solution has to be found, but I think this can be done without resorting to calling anybody any name.
And just add again on my 2 cents. I still vote for a limit on the number of skins downloaded instead of bandwidth. The user is downloading skins, he is not downloading Megs.
But here is a question that hasn't been raised before: how do you know for sure that the 5% of huge downloaders does NOT come from registered, paying apprentices and above? Is it just a guess or you can verify thins someway with the logs? Personnaly, I tend to think that most of the downloads come from people who are very familiar with skinning, not from newbies. I think that if you really want to solve the bandwidth issue permanently you are going to have to limit the downloads for everybody, maybe based on the model I proposed earlier.
I just think the term "leech" is a little exagerated. I don't feel like a leech because I visit CNN's site regularely even if I don't pay to have CNN from my cable provider, or MSNBC, or whatever. I don't feel like a leech because I download programs from Download.com all the time, mostly freewares. I agree a bandwidth solution has to be found, but I think this can be done without resorting to calling anybody any name.
And just add again on my 2 cents. I still vote for a limit on the number of skins downloaded instead of bandwidth. The user is downloading skins, he is not downloading Megs.
But here is a question that hasn't been raised before: how do you know for sure that the 5% of huge downloaders does NOT come from registered, paying apprentices and above? Is it just a guess or you can verify thins someway with the logs? Personnaly, I tend to think that most of the downloads come from people who are very familiar with skinning, not from newbies. I think that if you really want to solve the bandwidth issue permanently you are going to have to limit the downloads for everybody, maybe based on the model I proposed earlier.
feline
Reply #37 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 8:28 AM
Reply #37 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 8:28 AM
paxx, surely most people well familiar with skining would already have most of the skinz for the apps they currently use? if so, then the only skin downloading they would be doing would be new stuff as it is posted, and possibly the full set of skinz when they try out a new app.
as for download.com, i seem to recall figures suggesting that wincustomize is heading for the same sort of bandwidth requirements as download.com, but without the death by adverts.
i see your point, but i am not sure how it applies.
as for names, if all that bandwidth cost was comming out of my wallet i would be inclined towards using the occasional rude word / name myself
as for download.com, i seem to recall figures suggesting that wincustomize is heading for the same sort of bandwidth requirements as download.com, but without the death by adverts.
i see your point, but i am not sure how it applies.
as for names, if all that bandwidth cost was comming out of my wallet i would be inclined towards using the occasional rude word / name myself
Frogboy
Reply #38 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 1:18 PM
Reply #38 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 1:18 PM
We know because we track how many megabytes each account has used. We took a statistical sampling of the user base and looked at how much they downloaded and looked at how many of them were in the customer database.
paxx
Reply #40 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 3:46 PM
Reply #40 Wednesday, October 3, 2001 3:46 PM
jebland: being an active member on the web site, such as making skins and themes, being active and helpful on the messageboard when people ask questions and stuff, leave comments and advices on other people's skins, etc.
They key word is involvement and contribution.
They key word is involvement and contribution.
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Reply #21 Tuesday, October 2, 2001 6:49 AM
-gorman