In light of what has gone on this is something everyone should read...
Wednesday, September 12, 2001 by angtolo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
This, from a Canadian newspaper...
-------------------------------------
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and
safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at
home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."
"Stand proud, America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
****************************************
-------------------------------------
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and
safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at
home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."
"Stand proud, America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
****************************************
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GreenReaper
Reply #2 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:14 AM
Reply #2 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:14 AM
Airbus turns out over one plane every workday, has a $17.2 billion turnover and has taken much of the market from Boeing and other competitors by being more up-to-date and efficient airplanes.
The US and Russia *both* attempted the goal of putting a man on the moon - and returning him. The US suceeded, and it was a great achievement - but in the end, the greatest gains came from the development in technology necessary to support the mission (computers, for example) rather than the actual mission. At the time no other countries had the resources to even attempt it - right now, there are several who *could*, if they wanted to - but there's no reason to.
I won't argue against the fact that America has, indeed, spent vast sums with the aim of securing peace and prosperity in the world. They have, indeed, been generous. As to racing to the help of Americans - well, everyone assumed that America was strong enough to help itself, and I think that's a compliment rather than a detriment. Certainly there was no hesitation on the part of the member nations of NATO in supporting it's ally when asked.
The US and Russia *both* attempted the goal of putting a man on the moon - and returning him. The US suceeded, and it was a great achievement - but in the end, the greatest gains came from the development in technology necessary to support the mission (computers, for example) rather than the actual mission. At the time no other countries had the resources to even attempt it - right now, there are several who *could*, if they wanted to - but there's no reason to.
I won't argue against the fact that America has, indeed, spent vast sums with the aim of securing peace and prosperity in the world. They have, indeed, been generous. As to racing to the help of Americans - well, everyone assumed that America was strong enough to help itself, and I think that's a compliment rather than a detriment. Certainly there was no hesitation on the part of the member nations of NATO in supporting it's ally when asked.
Jafo
Reply #3 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:48 AM
Reply #3 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:48 AM
That is painfully US-centric...and that is understandable in the current climate...but it is flawed on just about every level.
This year, I lost a friend to cancer...contracted via Agent Orange while fighting that 'American' war in Vietnam....two tours, not conscripted...seconded to US Intelligence and behind enemy lines...marine beside him stood on a mine...my friend got the collateral damage.....So what?, you say....well..I think it was last year, he was sent to California to help with the bush-fires there....cos Australia has the odd experienced bush-fire fighter or two.
Don't get me wrong....America is a great nation.....but it doesn't have a monopoly on great qualities, or self-less human beings....not by a long way....
This year, I lost a friend to cancer...contracted via Agent Orange while fighting that 'American' war in Vietnam....two tours, not conscripted...seconded to US Intelligence and behind enemy lines...marine beside him stood on a mine...my friend got the collateral damage.....So what?, you say....well..I think it was last year, he was sent to California to help with the bush-fires there....cos Australia has the odd experienced bush-fire fighter or two.
Don't get me wrong....America is a great nation.....but it doesn't have a monopoly on great qualities, or self-less human beings....not by a long way....
angtolo
Reply #4 Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:48 AM
Reply #4 Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:48 AM
I by no means besmirch other countries that have done well for the world but I found that (Canadian print) editorial to be touching and I think Americans have never made themselves out to be Martyrs but I certainly think we should be allowed to weep as well as take pride in what we have accomplished. We ain’t the frickin’ super power for no reason!
craeonics
Reply #5 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:04 AM
Reply #5 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:04 AM
What a country! I think I'll immigrate at once. <-- sarcasm
craeonics
Reply #6 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:06 AM
Reply #6 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:06 AM
Or was that "emigrate"? Damn, confused now...
paxx
Reply #7 Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:14 AM
Reply #7 Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:14 AM
You might emigrate from Netherlands in order to immigrate to the US. 
KenLin
Reply #8 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:47 PM
Reply #8 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:47 PM
How different would the world be if not for the USA? Europe would be either Nazi or Communist. Vietnam would be all Communist. Isreal would be known as Outer Palistan. Hard to imagine the middle East would be any more fucked up than it already is, but who knows? Countless others would be worse off than they are now. (I'm sure some would be better off, as well)
berzerka
Reply #9 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:03 PM
Reply #9 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:03 PM
what the hell is all this arrogance???
that makes me sick
that makes me sick
berzerka
Reply #10 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:07 PM
Reply #10 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:07 PM
yes, the recent attack is terrible, but u have no right to be slandorous to other countries around the world, that series of statements is basically insulting every1 who isnt american
URall_fags
Reply #11 Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:39 PM
Reply #11 Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:39 PM
To those who had to add their negative comments…
Since WHEN is it slanderous against other countries to speak of the good America has done for MANY of those VERY countries? How many countries have YOUR country aided and assisted? Why not tell of the great humanitarian efforts you’ve witnessed your own people do so that we may better understand your argument! You could mention great things your own country has done and I wouldn’t consider it “arrogant” at all! Why must people get so defensive and act like ignorant children yelling on a playground?
-Not to mention, the article posted by angtolo was written by a CANADIAN in a Canadian newspaper. I don’t think sharing an article to help lift the spirits of Americans who are suffering because of the current tragedy should be misconstrued as superciliousness! I don’t think anyone was forcing you to read it and certainly not comment on it.
It’s not a crime to love America and the freedom it stands for. Sure, it [America] has plenty of faults just as the WHOLE WORLD does but that doesn’t mean they should be bashed for seeking comfort and solace in the good it HAS done. Do you kick someone when they are down? I certainly hope not! It’s so simple to hate and I hope the evil cowards that would like to see America destroyed end up completely wiped out and decimated once and for all.
Signing off,
Victor G.H.
Since WHEN is it slanderous against other countries to speak of the good America has done for MANY of those VERY countries? How many countries have YOUR country aided and assisted? Why not tell of the great humanitarian efforts you’ve witnessed your own people do so that we may better understand your argument! You could mention great things your own country has done and I wouldn’t consider it “arrogant” at all! Why must people get so defensive and act like ignorant children yelling on a playground?
-Not to mention, the article posted by angtolo was written by a CANADIAN in a Canadian newspaper. I don’t think sharing an article to help lift the spirits of Americans who are suffering because of the current tragedy should be misconstrued as superciliousness! I don’t think anyone was forcing you to read it and certainly not comment on it.
It’s not a crime to love America and the freedom it stands for. Sure, it [America] has plenty of faults just as the WHOLE WORLD does but that doesn’t mean they should be bashed for seeking comfort and solace in the good it HAS done. Do you kick someone when they are down? I certainly hope not! It’s so simple to hate and I hope the evil cowards that would like to see America destroyed end up completely wiped out and decimated once and for all.
Signing off,
Victor G.H.
craeonics
Reply #12 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:02 PM
Reply #12 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:02 PM
Bashing? What bashing? Pointing out arrogance is bashing these days?
Frogboy
Reply #13 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:08 PM
Reply #13 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:08 PM
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm
hoverboy
Reply #14 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:09 PM
Reply #14 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:09 PM
So praise of our nation by someone from another country makes Americans arrogant?
Great logic...
This whole situation, the negative (and some disgusting) remarks regarding this post (and others) has made me rethink about being a member of this skinning community.
Great logic...
This whole situation, the negative (and some disgusting) remarks regarding this post (and others) has made me rethink about being a member of this skinning community.
Frogboy
Reply #15 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:11 PM
Reply #15 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:11 PM
Yes, Craeonics, calling someone arrogant is bashing. Considering where you live, you should be rather thankful to the United States. Had not this "arrogant" country bailed yours out, your country wouldn't exist today.
craeonics
Reply #16 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:16 PM
Reply #16 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:16 PM
Would it? Holland was liberated by Canada if I'm not mistaken. Ugh, I think I should avoid threads like htese until they blow over...
hoverboy
Reply #17 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:19 PM
Reply #17 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:19 PM
craeonics -
As I said in the other thread:
fu*k you
ban me, because this disgusts me and I'd rathar not be a part of a place like this.
I used to have the utmost respect for you and your work. As of now, it's all been deleted.
You disgust me.
As I said in the other thread:
fu*k you
ban me, because this disgusts me and I'd rathar not be a part of a place like this.
I used to have the utmost respect for you and your work. As of now, it's all been deleted.
You disgust me.
Frogboy
Reply #18 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:26 PM
Reply #18 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:26 PM
Craeonics, your knowledge of WW2 is appalling. How exactly do you think those Canadians got to Europe? Who manufactureed their weapons? Who provided the tanks they drove in? Who provided the landing craft they arrived in? Who provided the fuel they were in? Who provide dthe air cover?
Without the United States, NL would not have been liberated except possibly by the Soviet Union. Of course, without Lend Lease, the Soviet Union would have been defeated in the summer of 1942. In any event, your best bet was to be "liberated" by the Soviet Union.
I think you should "avoid" threads like these until you have a better understanding of history. Americans don't ask the world to get on their knees and be thankful, we just ask that you not crap on us at every opportunity or kick us when we're down. Is that really asking for so much?
When thousands of Americans are murdered for no particular reason, is it so awful that we try to take pride in our country? Is it so terrible that we list the good deeds we have done for the world in an effort to feel moral outrage at what has been done to us?
Without the United States, NL would not have been liberated except possibly by the Soviet Union. Of course, without Lend Lease, the Soviet Union would have been defeated in the summer of 1942. In any event, your best bet was to be "liberated" by the Soviet Union.
I think you should "avoid" threads like these until you have a better understanding of history. Americans don't ask the world to get on their knees and be thankful, we just ask that you not crap on us at every opportunity or kick us when we're down. Is that really asking for so much?
When thousands of Americans are murdered for no particular reason, is it so awful that we try to take pride in our country? Is it so terrible that we list the good deeds we have done for the world in an effort to feel moral outrage at what has been done to us?
KenLin
Reply #19 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:06 PM
Reply #19 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:06 PM
I was not bashing those other countries I spoke of. I was merely pointing out that they were all involved in conflicts and needed assistance, And the US was there to help them.
Jafo
Reply #20 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:15 PM
Reply #20 Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:15 PM
Hoverboy...
Adult, mature discussion will allow comments and opinions such as Crae's to be heard and considered.
You do not need to agree, but you must respect his right to an opinion, and not necessarily see it as 'disgusting'.
I've lived long enough to know more than just a token understanding of recent history.
I am not blinded one way or another by proximity.
Conflict is caused by intolerance of other's opinions/beliefs.
You can question another's ideals, but it can be doing them a disservice to dismiss them.
True altruistic freedom of expression would defend the motives of the terrorists...it just does not defend their actions.
Australians died in these attacks, therefore our 'constitution' defines that as an act of terrorism against Australia, too.
If the US were to go to war over this, so would we....but NOT simply in 'support', but because we, too were affected/attacked.
And since it is declared as an act of war against Australia, too, there is nothing to say we would not conduct our own insurgency strike...with or without US support.
Anyway...
The point is that here at WinCustomize, you will find a comparatively mature approach to matters such as these, compared with other sites.
Don't leave the community...
But don't refuse crae's rights to an opinion....
Adult, mature discussion will allow comments and opinions such as Crae's to be heard and considered.
You do not need to agree, but you must respect his right to an opinion, and not necessarily see it as 'disgusting'.
I've lived long enough to know more than just a token understanding of recent history.
I am not blinded one way or another by proximity.
Conflict is caused by intolerance of other's opinions/beliefs.
You can question another's ideals, but it can be doing them a disservice to dismiss them.
True altruistic freedom of expression would defend the motives of the terrorists...it just does not defend their actions.
Australians died in these attacks, therefore our 'constitution' defines that as an act of terrorism against Australia, too.
If the US were to go to war over this, so would we....but NOT simply in 'support', but because we, too were affected/attacked.
And since it is declared as an act of war against Australia, too, there is nothing to say we would not conduct our own insurgency strike...with or without US support.
Anyway...
The point is that here at WinCustomize, you will find a comparatively mature approach to matters such as these, compared with other sites.
Don't leave the community...
But don't refuse crae's rights to an opinion....
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Reply #1 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:50 AM