Issue 5 of Teknidermy, Online Skinners Ezine, out now.
Sunday, July 1, 2001 by jumbles | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Included in this issue,articles on PocketBlinds,Shells,
plus lots of other interesting content.Meet one of the top ten skinners here, who also happens to be Computer Artist for a famous Corporation!!
Best of all, Teknidermy is FREE!!
http://www.teknidermy.org
plus lots of other interesting content.Meet one of the top ten skinners here, who also happens to be Computer Artist for a famous Corporation!!
Best of all, Teknidermy is FREE!!
http://www.teknidermy.org
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Jafo
Reply #42 Thursday, July 5, 2001 1:00 AM
Reply #42 Thursday, July 5, 2001 1:00 AM
Brad...I'd be happy to get into long-winded debates, but I'm a 2 finger typist, so I'm winded before they get long....
craeonics
Reply #43 Thursday, July 5, 2001 3:57 AM
Reply #43 Thursday, July 5, 2001 3:57 AM
You can have a good discussion here though. Just ignore all the off topic stuff.
migellito
Reply #44 Thursday, July 5, 2001 10:16 AM
Reply #44 Thursday, July 5, 2001 10:16 AM
wow.. get horribly ill and go off-line for two days, and look what happens.. hehe. of course, that's what always happened with the skinzorg mb (just like any good soap-opera) 
i think the idea of a mainstream mag is fantastic! here's why:
my degree is in archaeology (technically, anthro and history, but anyway..) there are two 'major' publications for the world of archaeology:
- 'archaeology' available at newsstands, etc.
- 'the american journal of archaeology' available basically to working archaeologists
you'll notice both are published by the aia, both official.. but for somewhat different audiences.
i think the idea of a mainstream mag is fantastic! here's why:
my degree is in archaeology (technically, anthro and history, but anyway..) there are two 'major' publications for the world of archaeology:
- 'archaeology' available at newsstands, etc.
- 'the american journal of archaeology' available basically to working archaeologists
you'll notice both are published by the aia, both official.. but for somewhat different audiences.
kenray
Reply #45 Thursday, July 5, 2001 12:53 PM
Reply #45 Thursday, July 5, 2001 12:53 PM
Mig is right.
Tek is a mag for working artists. That was laid out very plainly in the "Proposal" i published before Tek even became a magazine.
We welcome John & Suzie Download with open arms, but the magazine is "for" working skinners.
Anyone notice that a young german fellah posted a note to the Deviant message forums this morning, trying to find a copy of Greybook?
To him it's still relevant, to me it's still relevant, and to Tek it's still relevant.
to quote Brad:
"To Kenray, I suspect, the community is more of a core set of a few thousand users who appreciate things like Greybook."
Almost correct.
Per my original Proposal, and per our stated goals as a magazine, the "community" we write for is those who "Create". We love and welcome those who "Use", but our magazine is for the "Creators".
from The Proposal, written and published Sept. 21, 2000:
"Proposed: the creation of a free on-line periodical dedicated to, created by, and serving the community of designers and programmers who call themselves "skinners". "
Tek is a mag for working artists. That was laid out very plainly in the "Proposal" i published before Tek even became a magazine.
We welcome John & Suzie Download with open arms, but the magazine is "for" working skinners.
Anyone notice that a young german fellah posted a note to the Deviant message forums this morning, trying to find a copy of Greybook?
To him it's still relevant, to me it's still relevant, and to Tek it's still relevant.
to quote Brad:
"To Kenray, I suspect, the community is more of a core set of a few thousand users who appreciate things like Greybook."
Almost correct.
Per my original Proposal, and per our stated goals as a magazine, the "community" we write for is those who "Create". We love and welcome those who "Use", but our magazine is for the "Creators".
from The Proposal, written and published Sept. 21, 2000:
"Proposed: the creation of a free on-line periodical dedicated to, created by, and serving the community of designers and programmers who call themselves "skinners". "
Draginol
Reply #46 Thursday, July 5, 2001 3:43 PM
Reply #46 Thursday, July 5, 2001 3:43 PM
That would be a good thing to put in your main about area as it's a really good description.
I think we probably need a second skin magazine that focuses on people who make skins and use skins.
I think we probably need a second skin magazine that focuses on people who make skins and use skins.
Frank Leon
Reply #47 Thursday, July 5, 2001 5:10 PM
Reply #47 Thursday, July 5, 2001 5:10 PM
plastic: I might sound harsh but that's because I hate elitism. Any time I see elitism I respond. That started early on this site's history when Bakerstreet argued for his aristractic vision of this so called community. I'm a nobody. I've got a wife and kids and job. I don't have time to be a big personality on this skin boards. We commoners don't like being treated like we don't count. If kenray wants to have a site that caters to those elite people that's his business. but when he distorts reality to fit his vision of the universe then I do care. If his first post had just said that his magazine was for programmers and not users and what he meant was deviantart was the only skin site that gets any serious traffic that has skin sections for virtually every skinned proggie out there irrespective of its poopularity then none of this argument would have happened. I'm a lowly skin user. And lowly skin users like me see this place as the place to get the skins for the programs that most of us use.
Jafo
Reply #48 Thursday, July 5, 2001 7:39 PM
Reply #48 Thursday, July 5, 2001 7:39 PM
'aristocratic', Mr. Frank.....
Jafo is a spelling service to both skinners and 'lowly users' alike...
BTW....there is nothing 'lowly' about it...
Jafo is a spelling service to both skinners and 'lowly users' alike...
BTW....there is nothing 'lowly' about it...
Doreen
Reply #49 Thursday, July 5, 2001 8:20 PM
Reply #49 Thursday, July 5, 2001 8:20 PM
Hey Boss!
lemme know when they are done bashing you so we can get ready for our next issue!
instead of complaining about what you read in Teknidermy, Kenray offers the opportunity for the ppl of the skinning community to even write articles/interviews for his magazine.
why not put your fingers where your mouths are???
IMHO of course
haha
lemme know when they are done bashing you so we can get ready for our next issue!
instead of complaining about what you read in Teknidermy, Kenray offers the opportunity for the ppl of the skinning community to even write articles/interviews for his magazine.
why not put your fingers where your mouths are???
IMHO of course
haha
Doreen
Reply #50 Thursday, July 5, 2001 8:28 PM
Reply #50 Thursday, July 5, 2001 8:28 PM
and I'm just playin so sit back down! haha
I just think you guys know Kenray pretty much by now, and know where he was coming from, he wants the magazine to be fair for big and small, or he would not have allowed me to throw articles and interviews into it, that are somewhat alittle on the outside of stuff...
if you guys feel you want to see something specific in his mag you can help him by suggestions on his msg board and/or offering to write specific articles or interviews as well
I'm sure he would appreciate that.
Brad come on you got those typin fingers throw Tek an article... hehe
I just think you guys know Kenray pretty much by now, and know where he was coming from, he wants the magazine to be fair for big and small, or he would not have allowed me to throw articles and interviews into it, that are somewhat alittle on the outside of stuff...
if you guys feel you want to see something specific in his mag you can help him by suggestions on his msg board and/or offering to write specific articles or interviews as well
I'm sure he would appreciate that.
Brad come on you got those typin fingers throw Tek an article... hehe
Doreen
Reply #51 Thursday, July 5, 2001 8:34 PM
Reply #51 Thursday, July 5, 2001 8:34 PM
I'm a nobody. I've got a wife and kids and job.
by Mr Frank Leon - 7/5/2001 5:10:06 PM
wrong, you're a member of the skinning community and we read ya when you post... hehe
by Mr Frank Leon - 7/5/2001 5:10:06 PM
wrong, you're a member of the skinning community and we read ya when you post... hehe
Frogboy
Reply #52 Thursday, July 5, 2001 9:24 PM
Reply #52 Thursday, July 5, 2001 9:24 PM
I think I've done my share of writing for the community.
Not counting my monthly column at Avault:
http://www.avault.com/developer/
Which I have to trim to fit in the 10 page limit.
And my monthly column at Quarter To Three:
http://www.quartertothree.com/columns/columns.shtml
Here are a few of the articles for skinning I've done:
https://www.stardock.net/media/article_branding.pdf
https://www.stardock.net/media/article_guirev.pdf
https://www.stardock.net/media/skinprimer.pdf
https://www.stardock.net/media/article_windowsxp.html
I think Mike's point is a good one and that is there might be a need to have a second skin magazine that focuses more on users rather than developers. But Tek is certainly free to use any of my articles I've already done if they'd like.
I'm just stretched too thin to commit to another column right now.
Not counting my monthly column at Avault:
http://www.avault.com/developer/
Which I have to trim to fit in the 10 page limit.
And my monthly column at Quarter To Three:
http://www.quartertothree.com/columns/columns.shtml
Here are a few of the articles for skinning I've done:
https://www.stardock.net/media/article_branding.pdf
https://www.stardock.net/media/article_guirev.pdf
https://www.stardock.net/media/skinprimer.pdf
https://www.stardock.net/media/article_windowsxp.html
I think Mike's point is a good one and that is there might be a need to have a second skin magazine that focuses more on users rather than developers. But Tek is certainly free to use any of my articles I've already done if they'd like.
I'm just stretched too thin to commit to another column right now.
Doreen
Reply #53 Thursday, July 5, 2001 9:28 PM
Reply #53 Thursday, July 5, 2001 9:28 PM
I know you are busy Brad just figured I'd try
hehe
I will try to focus future interviews on "The users" alittle more.
you guys just need to let Ken know what you want! kenray is flex...
hehe
I will try to focus future interviews on "The users" alittle more.
you guys just need to let Ken know what you want! kenray is flex...
kenray
Reply #54 Friday, July 6, 2001 1:05 AM
Reply #54 Friday, July 6, 2001 1:05 AM
Ah, Doreen, my Knight in Shining Armor!
Frank, Frank, Frank. (notice the three repititions, like in the Bible...I really want your attention).
THere is nothing aristocratic going on. THere is nothing elitist going on.
One day, I thought to myself, "Hey, I wonder if there is enough interest from these skinners for them to have a magazine". and it turns out, there is.
Most professions have a "trade" magazine. As Migellito so eleoquently points out in his reference to the Archeologists. And the doctors have several. And the dentists. and so on.
There is nothing wrong, elitist, or aritocratic about giving the 550 or so English-speaking active skin artists a magazine.
Anyone can get a copy of the AMA journal if they want it. You can read the latest copy of Tek if you want to. No one will try to stop you or keep you out. But you have to realize that these are "trade" magazines. THey cater to the intended audience.
Right now, there is a fellow named Daniel, from Croatia, who is working on a Slavic Edition of Tek. Who knows how many skinners there are in the Russo-Slavic nations? I certainly don't. But we won't discourage Dan from his work!
I also beleive that there is room for much more publishing on the subject of skins, and skinning. Like Razor art, and Pixel Effect, and whatever Tack is going to put together with Deviant Art. And we at Tek welcome, & will try our best to help and co-operate wherever we can, in those endeavors (please see our interview with Tech13 of Razor art in the present Tek edition).
So please, don't think negatively of us for offering soemthing back to those who have given so much of themselves, freely, & without hesitation.
Frank, Frank, Frank. (notice the three repititions, like in the Bible...I really want your attention).
THere is nothing aristocratic going on. THere is nothing elitist going on.
One day, I thought to myself, "Hey, I wonder if there is enough interest from these skinners for them to have a magazine". and it turns out, there is.
Most professions have a "trade" magazine. As Migellito so eleoquently points out in his reference to the Archeologists. And the doctors have several. And the dentists. and so on.
There is nothing wrong, elitist, or aritocratic about giving the 550 or so English-speaking active skin artists a magazine.
Anyone can get a copy of the AMA journal if they want it. You can read the latest copy of Tek if you want to. No one will try to stop you or keep you out. But you have to realize that these are "trade" magazines. THey cater to the intended audience.
Right now, there is a fellow named Daniel, from Croatia, who is working on a Slavic Edition of Tek. Who knows how many skinners there are in the Russo-Slavic nations? I certainly don't. But we won't discourage Dan from his work!
I also beleive that there is room for much more publishing on the subject of skins, and skinning. Like Razor art, and Pixel Effect, and whatever Tack is going to put together with Deviant Art. And we at Tek welcome, & will try our best to help and co-operate wherever we can, in those endeavors (please see our interview with Tech13 of Razor art in the present Tek edition).
So please, don't think negatively of us for offering soemthing back to those who have given so much of themselves, freely, & without hesitation.
kenray
Reply #55 Friday, July 6, 2001 1:10 AM
Reply #55 Friday, July 6, 2001 1:10 AM
Oh, and does Anyone read my Editors notes?
Please let me quote myself again:
"This all leaves Deviant Art, Skinbase.org and Wincustomize.com as the only real players in this field. It has been positive to see the addition of a few favorite smallware apps to the listings at Wincustomize, and we wish all the best in the world to DA & Skinbase."
Is "Real Player" a slam?
www.teknidermy.org
Please let me quote myself again:
"This all leaves Deviant Art, Skinbase.org and Wincustomize.com as the only real players in this field. It has been positive to see the addition of a few favorite smallware apps to the listings at Wincustomize, and we wish all the best in the world to DA & Skinbase."
Is "Real Player" a slam?
www.teknidermy.org
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Reply #41 Wednesday, July 4, 2001 11:20 PM
I wish we had more of that type of intellectual discussion here but things don't seem to work as well here. Cygnus said I am too defensive but I don't think that's so much the issue as it being more an issue of people *here* don't want to have to back up their assertions. And when I or someone else here does, it gets heated. In contrast, I can't even remember the last time there was a personal attack on the Stardock.discussion.* groups even though those discussions are debates.
I think it would be great if the message board would deal with some of the issues at hand without people getting so personal about it.
As you know, Plastic, I like you. Yet you and I are from opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to how we envision "the community". Think of all the great discussions we could have and how many new perspectives we could gain. But could we have such a conversation here without someone making a personal attack? I'm not sure. Cygnus still doesn't see the problem in him making multple posts that had nothing to do with the issue but instead "satirized" how long my posts tend to be. And I consider Cygnus to be one of the better users here. So if even a top user like Cygnus doesn't like to see debates, then I can imagine that such discussions will never really get going.
And that's unfortunate. Because Kenray's article in which he labeled DeviantArt as the only major player in the skinning community highlights how there really are two very seperate schools of thoughts on the community. The group, that I think would include you, Plastic, that thinks of it as a cottage industry in the hands of a small town (The shop around the corner crowd). And the other group, that would include me, who doesn't want to see skinning as a "Deviant" form of art but rather mainstream.
Probably another way to see it is that some people view skinning as a way to rebel against the conformity around them. An expression of personal art. Whereas I see WinCustomize as a force to try to liberate as many people as possilbe so that one day everyone decides how their computers look and feel and act.
That's why Kenray's article struck a nerve with me. We are all aware of these two schools of thought and we (WinCustomize's staff) don't like to see the quasi-official webzine of the community endorsing a particular school of thought.
Do you know what I mean? To me the community is anyone who uses skinnable software and that community numbers in the millions. To Kenray, I suspect, the community is more of a core set of a few thousand users who appreciate things like Greybook. To him, I think, a true skin site is one that supports those core users. Whereas to me, a skin site is one that serves the needs of the masses. That's why number of downloads matter to me whereas the number of skin sections matter to him. Number of overall users matter to me, diversity in app selection matters to him. I just don't think it's good for a webzine to favor one philosophy over the other.
Of course, if d a second skin magazine that targeted the mainstream more was created then that would let Tekidermy focus more on the "smallware" apps with less guilt.