Blog: Aero Skinning, Modelers, and unorthodox skinning...

Wednesday, September 15, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News

Has anyone noticed that the quality of WindowBlinds visual styles has improved lately? There's been some really great stuff coming from people like MikeB, Boxxi, and many others. With WindowBlinds 4.4 now out for registered/Object Desktop users, it's a perfect storm of good things for users (like me) who are really into this stuff.

One of the internal debates right now is whether to support Aero-style semi-transparencies in borders. We don't know how well it could be done without affecting performance. There's still lots of people who argue (incorrectly) that WindowBlinds is "slow" despite the fact it's faster than what's built into Windows XP.  I can guarantee that there's be some performance hit on all but the latest video cards for semi-transparent borders. It would be non-trivial to go and do this well. My personal feeling is I'd like to see shadows in WindowFX made more seamless. How many of you run with shadows on all the time? If not, why? I don't because I feel (maybe wrongly) that they slow down my computer. I think the first quest is to find a way to make shadows perfect as long as you have a high end video card that has proper drivers. That would be the proof of concept. I do agree that semi transparent window title bars and borders might be cool.  And I have no doubt lots of people would like the feature. The question is merely whether it's feasible or not.

Meanwhile, things are crazy at the office as usual. We're working on buying a building. Right now, we lease our building over in Livonia Michigan. But this Winter, we hope to migrate to a brand new building we're buying. We're very excited about it.  Once we're over there, we'll have more room to start hiring more peple.

Speaking of hiring, we're still in a bit of a world of pain in the art department. We really need a senior level 3D modeler, preferably one with some animation skills (i.e. someone with some serious experience). We have a fantasy strategy game in early development and we're really weak in the 3D modeling of organic things (trolls, orcs, elves, etc.).  So if you know anyone whose really good at modeling things (and I mean really good -- we have good modelers already but we don't have ones who are experienced enough to make convincing organic things fairly quickly) then have them email me ([email protected]).  And no, you can't work from remote (we get a lot of people saying they're happy to work with us, for lots of money, as long as they can work from home, we need someone on hand).

We're working with SkinPlant on a really cool new skin suite called Unorthodox. The idea is to create some truly unique looking skins that approach GUI design from new angles. We hope to have that done by October.  Meanwhile, Mormegil is nearly done with the Utopia icon suite. It's a sequel to his popular Orion icon suite. He's been working on Utopia for over a year now. It's a huge undertaking as there are so many icons in it and he has strived to create something both unique as well as something you'd want to use.  We're hoping that'll come out in October as well -- 2 years after Orion.

Next week, WinCustomize subscribers will be able to start having their own personal pages via the new WC2K5 technology. WC2K5 won't be done next week for subscribers, just the personal home pages. But I think a lot of it will blow people away. The amount of "stuff" there is, frankly, incredibly cool. By the end of September, the beta of WC2K5 will be ready for subscribers.  The full WC2K5 will be a pretty dramatic departure from the WinCustomize of today. It'll be a tabbed interface. Things will be context driven. So when you go to the WindowBlinds library, you'll see the most popular WindowBlinds skins and WindowBlinds authors along with the most recent discussions about WindowBlinds and WindowBlinds tutorials. That's what would appear on the right bar instead of the same stuff on every page.  From a speed point of view, things are really different. Right now, everything on WinCustomize is database drive.  But in WC2K5, there will be a lot of pages cached so that performance should be much higher. 

On Object Desktop, two new components are about to go into alpha/beta -- RightClick should show up next week and Web Explorer (think Internet Explorer with a tabbed interface and some other goodies built in). 

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skyguybcn
Reply #61 Friday, September 17, 2004 6:45 AM
Correct me if I´m wrong but I thought the greatest feature in the beginning of WB was to bring the advanced features of XP to WIN98/95 users. Well at least that was the reason for me to get the OD-Suite. So for me the logical consequence would be to go for the new Longhorn features.Not only to emulate Longhorn but also to develop new,original styles.And as someone said above, if you don´t use a style with semi-transparent windows it won´t affect your CPU. I definitely would love to see these new features in one of the next WB releases.
Citizen Insane
Reply #62 Friday, September 17, 2004 8:02 AM
Please bring us semi-transparent/transparency! The performance hit is not even an issue considering the number should go down as new technologies are improved upon. I thought these issues were pretty much irrelevant. What was the performance hit for the first public release of WB? Carry on the legacy of skinning.
Thomas Thomassen
Reply #63 Friday, September 17, 2004 8:43 AM
skyguybcn:
Bringing the advanced features of XP to the Win9x serie is simply not possible due to limitations of the 9x serie it self. The 9x serie is horrible when it comes to GUI handling and there isn't possible for a third party to fix this.

And it wouldn't be worth the effort either. 98 is a six years old OS and 95 is nine! That very old in computer terms. And the target user group isn't that great anymore since computers comes with new OS (meaning XP in these days) so a computer running the 9x serie would most likely be an old one with old hardware and the advanced features would be horrible slow.
Thomas Thomassen
Reply #64 Friday, September 17, 2004 8:46 AM
I say streamline WindowFX as done with WB. Then bring the experience to WB. You don't want to introduce a new feature to WB that yet again will make people go and say it's laggy, slow and killing their CPU.

I'm using windowFX all the time, but really feel it could need some streamlining.
paxx
Reply #65 Friday, September 17, 2004 9:35 AM
All right then, have WB configured that when loading a skin that uses alpha blending it displays a warning message "Notice: this skin uses transparency features that may impact on system performance, especially on older cideo adapers".
About Web Explorer: Great for tabs! But please have a popup blocker too in it, don't rely on the fact that SP2 already has that feature, as a lot of us don't have SP2 and nor do they want it... Or, will Web Explorer support 3rd party IE toolbars, such as Google bar?
TheSkinsFactory
Reply #66 Friday, September 17, 2004 9:49 AM
my vote is for adding full alpha support
lalfonsob
Reply #67 Friday, September 17, 2004 9:52 AM
One more vote for alpha blending support
rkadowns
Reply #68 Friday, September 17, 2004 10:11 AM
All I want to know is why do these effects work perfectly well on my 466Mhz Mac with its 16Mb AGP/Rage 128Pro video card and similar effects bring screen redraws to a craw on my 1.7Ghz PC with a Matrox G450 dualhead?

Is Quartz that much more superior to the method MS uses to draw windows? I mean, it seems that every single effect that is trying to be duplicated on the PC that works flawlessly on the Mac is sluggish. Heck, when I drag a window across an ObjectDock dock the dragging process slows down. Expecially when the dock is behind a window?!?! I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

I would use shadows and WindowFX, as it really adds to the interface, if they wern't so damn slow to redraw. Has anyone seen what OSX looks like withough shadows? Shadows are everything to OSX.

As for alpha blending. Only if it's handled by the video card and/or takes complete advantage of SMD. I don't see adding any more slow features unless common hardware can take advantage of them or someway or another bypass MS's code to get full hardware access to make these things work as expected.
Surj
Reply #69 Friday, September 17, 2004 10:52 AM
just my guess, and i have no idea what im talking about

i think its because of OS integration. most things properly (i stree properly) integrated into the OS and not running on top are going to run better. also, macs in many ways are a lot like game consoles. while they are hardware customizable of course, theres not near the spectrum of products availble for them. windows has to support a lot more, its not focused on something designed for it.
smoke-tetsu
Reply #70 Friday, September 17, 2004 10:55 AM
I am not familiar with Matrox G450's capabilities but here with my GeForce2 I don't have that many redraw problems. However, a thing to think about is in OSX with quartz extreme transparency is handled by the GPU using OpenGL where in XP it's either done in software or done by the overlay portion of your video card (if your card supports hardware transparency overlays). Also GDI and GDI+ are done in software and GDI especially is no quartz extreme.
smoke-tetsu
Reply #71 Friday, September 17, 2004 11:04 AM
It's just a different way of implementing the transparency: Quartz Extreme -> OpenGL WinXP\2k (which is an api built into the OS and apps just access it) -> video cards overly buffer. I had noticed that it can cause conflicts with things such as some video overlays (especially hardware motion compensation for DVD's which seems to me that it might actually be using the same overlay buffer as transparent things) which is what causes the flicker that sometimes happens because when I turn that off in the dvd program the flickering stops. When\if directx acceleration is added (which might have to wait until longhorn) I'm pretty sure that stuff would not happen anymore.
smoke-tetsu
Reply #72 Friday, September 17, 2004 11:06 AM
Oh yeah when I say the (win transparent buffer) api is built in I mean with the kernel.
Firedogs Ron Son Jose
Reply #73 Friday, September 17, 2004 11:08 AM
But what about more creativity in the WindowBlinds (e.g., Start Menu) of which Frogboy spoke about and displayed some months ago?
paxx
Reply #74 Friday, September 17, 2004 11:11 AM
We may not have to wait till Longhorn, it seems Avalon will be available as an add-on to XP. Can't wait.  This should bring us the GUI quality and smoothness of OSX.
smoke-tetsu
Reply #75 Friday, September 17, 2004 11:16 AM
From what I heard that probably is not going to come out soon. Probably when the longhorn betas come out at the earliest. And even then it probably won't have Aero (Glass). It would be just like Longhorn is without DCE available. To me it seems from what I've read that it's just a compatibility layer to run Longhorn programs in XP with XP looks. But I hope that is not true.
xxZeroVirusxx
Reply #76 Friday, September 17, 2004 12:31 PM
Brad, what are the odds that perhaps we could invoke a poll to determine whether or not (and/or how soon) Windowblinds should inclue semi-transparency. Even if semi-transparency is allowed, that doesn't mean that everyone is forced to use it. Semi-transparency seems to be the next step up, and there is no reason to set its release date back. But if people do feel so, why not try a poll? Even if the results won't be use, wouldn't it be nice to see?

Think of the possibilities.
SoundtrackGeek
Reply #77 Friday, September 17, 2004 12:38 PM
Yeah, I think a poll would be a good idea, although I personally don't see why you wouldn't want to use semi-transparency in WB. Like xxZeroVirusxx said, one wouldn't have to use it he didn't want to. Plus it does give skinners something totally cool to play with!
Mav Phoenix
Reply #78 Friday, September 17, 2004 2:22 PM
"But please have a popup blocker too in it, don't rely on the fact that SP2 already has that feature, as a lot of us don't have SP2 and nor do they want it..."

I'm sorry, I really am but you are a fool for not installing SP2. >
heffy
Reply #79 Friday, September 17, 2004 3:50 PM
Yes Please add the semi transparency. It would me a nice addition to a already good windowblinds.
d3adz0mbie
Reply #80 Friday, September 17, 2004 5:58 PM
In case there was any confusion before, PLEASE ADD SEMI-TRANSPARENCY TO WINDOWBLINDS!

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