OT: War in Iraq myths and facts
Friday, April 23, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
National Review has a provocative article arguing the myths and facts of the US actions in Iraq. We don't normally cover political issues here but we thought users who follow this kind of things might find interesting.
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Frogboy
Reply #2 Friday, April 23, 2004 5:35 PM
Reply #2 Friday, April 23, 2004 5:35 PM
One thing that is amazing is how little third party news gets posted. Here's a site that gets well over 2 MILLION *unique* visitors per month and hardly any third parties actually submit news.
thehighlander
Reply #3 Saturday, April 24, 2004 4:18 AM
Reply #3 Saturday, April 24, 2004 4:18 AM
how can you print such republican peopaganda on our skin site? occasional bad news from Iraq? try daily slaughter. bush is a murdering bastard, but we have a political forum if we want it at joe user. this doesn't belong here. you just ruined my morning. please don't post political crap on this site,f0r either side.i get politics all day long from my Iraqui boss, i don't need it on my day off.
Wildharp
Reply #4 Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:32 AM
Reply #4 Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:32 AM
Yeah be careful, but America is still a free country. Some of the fact in the article is myth! I'm nearly 50 and just missed out on a compulsory trip to a another war on my 18th birthday. But I do believe that war was stopped by soldiers, peaceniks, muslims, christians , jews, black, white, tall, short, thin and fat: all standing up to say it has to end. Could those days come again or are the passing years giving me an unhealthy dose of naive romanticism? 
Frogboy
Reply #5 Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:09 PM
Reply #5 Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:09 PM
I read the article and while one can quible with parts of it, I would certainly be interested in hearing any significant inaccuracies in it. 
Rmart
Reply #6 Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:31 PM
Reply #6 Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:31 PM
All right, I just read the article and can also find nothing in there to quibble about. Let the record show that I am a conservative Republican BTW. Just to be up front. I'm of the opinion that those of you who are crying about the posting would have been rejoicing had it been a website that bashed Bush and the current US policy in Iraq and the Middle East. At least be up front and acknowledge that as well. There has so far (in 5 postings) been no legitimate discussion or refutation of the statements made in the article, just crying from those who are too closed minded to hear anything but that which they wish to hear. It's actually refreshing to read a point of view that is an alternative to the mainstream drivel being printed in the mainstream press and spouted from the mainstream airwaves every day.
mdognrdog
Reply #7 Saturday, April 24, 2004 1:40 PM
Reply #7 Saturday, April 24, 2004 1:40 PM
National Review's contributors over the past couple of years spilled a lot of ink selling the war. We should hardly be surprised that they feel the need to defend it, now that it's blood that's being spilled.
Shame on you for being their shill.
Shame on you for being their shill.
mdognrdog
Reply #8 Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:05 PM
Reply #8 Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:05 PM
"There has so far (in 5 postings) been no legitimate discussion or refutation of the statements made in the article."
OK, HERE GOES:
"In fact, there are only about 4,500-5,500 NATO troops in Afghanistan right now. The United States and its Anglo allies routed the Taliban by themselves"
TRUE, YET MEANINGLESS TO THE ARGUMENT. NATO OFFERED TO MAKE AFGHANISTAN A FULL-BLOWN NATO OPERATION AND, AND WE TURNED THEM DOWN. THIS TIME, WE *ASKED* FOR INTERNATIONAL APPROVAL, AND GOT NONE. THIS WAS A VERY SNEAKY STAT FOR MR. HANSON TO EMPLOY.
"Myth #3: Lies got us into this war. Did the administration really mislead us about the reasons to go to war..."
YES, THEY DID. THEY CLAIMED SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF WMD STOCKPILES THAT CLEARLY DID NOT EXIST. THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT ALL GOOD MOMS TELL THEIR KIDS ARE LIES.
"Myth #5: Israel has caused the United States untold headaches in the Arab world by its intransigent policies."
LOOK, THIS IS A REALITY, NOT A MYTH. ONE CAN ARGUE WHETHER IT IS *REASONABLE* FOR THE ARAB WORLD TO HATE ISRAEL, WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, BUT IT'S CLEARLY *TRUE*. ANYBODY WHO CLAIMS THAT ISRAEL'S POLICIES DON'T MAKE IT HARDER FOR THE U.S. TO CONVINCE THE ARAB WORLD OF OUR GOOD INTENTIONS IS JUST FLAT LYING.
OK, HERE GOES:
"In fact, there are only about 4,500-5,500 NATO troops in Afghanistan right now. The United States and its Anglo allies routed the Taliban by themselves"
TRUE, YET MEANINGLESS TO THE ARGUMENT. NATO OFFERED TO MAKE AFGHANISTAN A FULL-BLOWN NATO OPERATION AND, AND WE TURNED THEM DOWN. THIS TIME, WE *ASKED* FOR INTERNATIONAL APPROVAL, AND GOT NONE. THIS WAS A VERY SNEAKY STAT FOR MR. HANSON TO EMPLOY.
"Myth #3: Lies got us into this war. Did the administration really mislead us about the reasons to go to war..."
YES, THEY DID. THEY CLAIMED SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF WMD STOCKPILES THAT CLEARLY DID NOT EXIST. THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT ALL GOOD MOMS TELL THEIR KIDS ARE LIES.
"Myth #5: Israel has caused the United States untold headaches in the Arab world by its intransigent policies."
LOOK, THIS IS A REALITY, NOT A MYTH. ONE CAN ARGUE WHETHER IT IS *REASONABLE* FOR THE ARAB WORLD TO HATE ISRAEL, WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, BUT IT'S CLEARLY *TRUE*. ANYBODY WHO CLAIMS THAT ISRAEL'S POLICIES DON'T MAKE IT HARDER FOR THE U.S. TO CONVINCE THE ARAB WORLD OF OUR GOOD INTENTIONS IS JUST FLAT LYING.
Old_Crab
Reply #9 Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:38 PM
Reply #9 Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:38 PM
O.K. Here goes. NR is a Conservative mag devoted to the Republican party. There are hundreds of links on the Web to refute the NR views. We've been through this before. Frogboy and Old Crab went round and round and solved absolutely.........nothing. I believe Bush lied and Frogboy did'nt. I do believe someone (ahem) is trying to bait the Old Crab again. However the Old Crab ain't going to bite this time! >
>
Old_Crab
Reply #10 Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:58 PM
Reply #10 Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:58 PM
Just one more thought. Please comment in a civil manner. >
Phar0e
Reply #11 Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:20 PM
Reply #11 Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:20 PM
I find it interesting how you can look a pretty much each comment on the topic, and quickly identify the particlar commenter's leanings on the subject
and ultimatly come away without the satifaction of a objective discussion of the said topic.
Easier for me to say, I suppose, as a non-American.
The National Review's leanings are obvious, and I think they try to hard to justify past and current actions. Their time might be better spent sticking to analysis and recommendations on how to move forward given the current states of affairs.
I did find their coments on Israel pretty much right on the mark.It never ceases to amaze me how often the US becomes a target due to actions in Israel and Palestine.
Anyway, thanks for the link Frogboy and the hopes for intelligent duscussion.
(sorry for the poor spelling)
and ultimatly come away without the satifaction of a objective discussion of the said topic.
Easier for me to say, I suppose, as a non-American.
The National Review's leanings are obvious, and I think they try to hard to justify past and current actions. Their time might be better spent sticking to analysis and recommendations on how to move forward given the current states of affairs.
I did find their coments on Israel pretty much right on the mark.It never ceases to amaze me how often the US becomes a target due to actions in Israel and Palestine.
Anyway, thanks for the link Frogboy and the hopes for intelligent duscussion.
(sorry for the poor spelling)
Anthony R
Reply #12 Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:46 PM
Reply #12 Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:46 PM
Frogboy how could you post this, he is Hitler I say!... Hitler!
Frogboy
Reply #13 Saturday, April 24, 2004 10:54 PM
Reply #13 Saturday, April 24, 2004 10:54 PM
I find it a bit disengenous when someone claims Bush "lied". Bush was obviously in error about WMD stockpiles but there's no evidence he lied. He simply parroted the same things Clinton and others before him said. Woodward's new book makes it pretty clear that CIA director Tenet was so certain that there were WMD stockpiles that he referred to it as a "slam dunk".
Though for those who supported the war in the first place, WMD stockpiles weren't the issue. WMD know-how and taking out the bad apples in that region in a post-9/11 world was the issue. Those who were against the action are still against the action. I've yet to see someone say "Well, I was totally in favor of things before but since they didn't find WMD I'm now against it." It's just a blunt instrument.
BTW, one of the nice things about owning a website is that you can make news items on whatever you want. If someone has a problem with that, they can choose to visit a different website. This article was simply pointing to an article to see what people thought. There's no reason for anyone to get hysterical about it.
Alberto Callerio
Reply #14 Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:55 AM
Reply #14 Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:55 AM
Democracy implemented by force? Like in Chile, you mean?
Or Salvador?
Bush in error? He lied! Better: Cheney lied to Bush and he "parroted" the same things to us.
"If someone has a problem with that, they can choose to visit a different website"
I will! Bye.
Or Salvador?
Bush in error? He lied! Better: Cheney lied to Bush and he "parroted" the same things to us.
"If someone has a problem with that, they can choose to visit a different website"
I will! Bye.
Evorg
Reply #15 Sunday, April 25, 2004 4:51 AM
Reply #15 Sunday, April 25, 2004 4:51 AM
It will be very interesting to see the report from the investigation into the food for oil program. I think it will be a real eye opener 
mdognrdog
Reply #16 Sunday, April 25, 2004 9:12 AM
Reply #16 Sunday, April 25, 2004 9:12 AM
'I find it a bit disengenous when someone claims Bush "lied".'
When you say that you know things to be true, when you're only assuming them to be true, you are lying.
When you say that you know things to be true, when you're only assuming them to be true, you are lying.
Eric gilmore
Reply #17 Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:42 PM
Reply #17 Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:42 PM
Look, Bush tried to sell the world a war in Iraq by using erroneous intelligence data. You can argue about the war untill you're blue in the face but the fact is he himself even doubted the intelegence. When he became too impatient to wait on the weapons inspectors findings.... doesn't that say something? Cleary the removal of sadam is a good thing from a humanitarian perspective but bush in all his arrogance felt he needed to sell a war to the public not fight the war in a manor in which the U.S. could be victorious in a quick way with as few casualties as possible. Now look at the mess we're in.
JeremyG
Reply #18 Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:56 PM
Reply #18 Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:56 PM
Really what the hell, here you have a HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL skin that that is always ON TOPIC, and not subject to silly news articles that people want to post on a whim....and you post this?
JeremyG
Reply #19 Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:58 PM
Reply #19 Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:58 PM
The reason 3rd parties dont post news is beause.....THEY DONT HAVE ANY SKINNING NEWS THAT OTHER PEOPLE DONT ALREAYD KNOW ABOUT.
I've never once read a complaint that there isnt enough off-topic stuff posted on the front page. People like that WC is ONLY about skinning. Please, get the Political stuff, and Starwars nonsense off the front page, lest this site become /.
I've never once read a complaint that there isnt enough off-topic stuff posted on the front page. People like that WC is ONLY about skinning. Please, get the Political stuff, and Starwars nonsense off the front page, lest this site become /.
Spoon_Gouge
Reply #20 Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:47 PM
Reply #20 Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:47 PM
I agree, This site should be devoted to Skinning and applications which are useful to those interested in skinning. Opinions of such a blatent right wing nature such as this post don't belong here. Period.
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Reply #1 Friday, April 23, 2004 5:26 PM
Reminds me of the Mac nuts discussed on the message board.