Your IT job, as you have known it, is over.
Wednesday, February 4, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
This excellent article at Wired analyses the trend in outsourcing technology jobs to India.
The conclusion: You hear that sound? It is the sound of inevitability. It is the sound of your job's death. Or at least, that's what they're saying.
Read the full article, what do you think? My job is safe though, I can type really really fast and I know how to use Word Perfect!
TheSkinsFactory
Reply #2 Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:44 AM
Reply #2 Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:44 AM
that was a really good (long too) article. Thanks for pointing that out.
Brock Beesley
Reply #3 Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:10 AM
Reply #3 Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:10 AM
No bones about it, I have a problem with this. Why are we taking jobs from hard-working Americans and then transferring them over seas, putting a strain on our economy (of course, then we all want to blame Bush for the problem). I know everyone's out for more green but these companies have been able to decrease their payroll expenditures by enormous amounts by outsourcing and yet the product prices stay the same. Meanwhile, the customer deals with increased frustration on the Customer Service end, among many other frustrations. Personally, I've determined that my next major purchases will be towards companies who continue to allow the American people to have jobs and work hard. I know it's a far cry into the world that executives don't care about, but can we not care about people just as much as we care about money?! 
dnagroove
Reply #4 Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:55 AM
Reply #4 Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:55 AM
Oh no, Beesley... you're not alone. I too (since immigrating to the US, that is) make sure to purchase and work only with the American patriots in the industry, and so do all of my partners and friends in the business. Jobs are much more than tools of development for the companies, they also represent the bonding links in the social and financial map of the American society.
It pains to see American companies giving in to greed at the expense of their own customers.
It pains to see American companies giving in to greed at the expense of their own customers.
Matchbook
Reply #5 Thursday, February 5, 2004 11:19 AM
Reply #5 Thursday, February 5, 2004 11:19 AM
Luckily TSF is one of the world's finest, most sought after graphics person; more prolific than dandelions in spring... 
Good article tho.
Good article tho.
Judge
Reply #6 Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:20 PM
Reply #6 Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:20 PM
Next time you buy something, look at where it was made. 90% of non-persihable goods will be made overseas.
TheSkinsFactory
Reply #7 Thursday, February 5, 2004 2:56 PM
Reply #7 Thursday, February 5, 2004 2:56 PM
TSF is a company not a person. I just happen to own and run it but it's powered by it's artists. And no i don't worry about overseas competition because i know 1) we're so far ahead when it comes to our portfolio's quality, 2)It's a niche market we're in and 3)I've made strong relationships with the companies i work for i.e. Microsoft, Warner Bros.
There will always be competition that's a no-brainer. I hire artists for the quality, not where they are from. But in the case of shipping all these jobs overseas i think the government should step in and regulate it. We need to protect the American companies first. And anyone who thinks that's a typical greedy american statement then i suggest you see how much our country has given/donated to your country in aid. Think about it - how much money does the U.S. give to foreign governments in the forms of aid and money? Hell we keep countries from going under on a regular basis. If we lose our economic standing then the rest of the world will suffer. No i believe in taking care of you're own first and the others later. Like the article said - "you make sure your children's needs are met before helping your neighbors." Feel free to flame me. I expect it. Seems i can't say help an animal without catching hell so i might as well speak my mind on this topic.
Oh and yeah feel free to blame Bush for our economic woes - that psychotic cowboy is plunging us into so much debt it's not even funny. I can't wait until november to cast my vote. I'm still trying to figure out why steroids and athletes take precendence over you know the smaller things like global warming, alternative fuel sources - you know the "little" things. But hey steroid use is definitely a topic the President of the United States should be worrying about. Riiiiiight. Rock the vote.
But that's not to say i'm against hiring foreign companies because i'm not. My TV is from Japan. My gripe is the amount of offshoring that is happening or will happen. It must be regulated by the government before it gets out of hand and the american people begin to suffer because of it.
There will always be competition that's a no-brainer. I hire artists for the quality, not where they are from. But in the case of shipping all these jobs overseas i think the government should step in and regulate it. We need to protect the American companies first. And anyone who thinks that's a typical greedy american statement then i suggest you see how much our country has given/donated to your country in aid. Think about it - how much money does the U.S. give to foreign governments in the forms of aid and money? Hell we keep countries from going under on a regular basis. If we lose our economic standing then the rest of the world will suffer. No i believe in taking care of you're own first and the others later. Like the article said - "you make sure your children's needs are met before helping your neighbors." Feel free to flame me. I expect it. Seems i can't say help an animal without catching hell so i might as well speak my mind on this topic.
Oh and yeah feel free to blame Bush for our economic woes - that psychotic cowboy is plunging us into so much debt it's not even funny. I can't wait until november to cast my vote. I'm still trying to figure out why steroids and athletes take precendence over you know the smaller things like global warming, alternative fuel sources - you know the "little" things. But hey steroid use is definitely a topic the President of the United States should be worrying about. Riiiiiight. Rock the vote.
But that's not to say i'm against hiring foreign companies because i'm not. My TV is from Japan. My gripe is the amount of offshoring that is happening or will happen. It must be regulated by the government before it gets out of hand and the american people begin to suffer because of it.
TheSkinsFactory
Reply #8 Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:17 PM
Reply #8 Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:17 PM
Really what it comes down to is this: if you as say a parent don't take care of your own health, financial situation, etc. then how can you take care of your child? You can't. Same thing goes for the american economy. If we can't take care of our own economy then how can we take care of other's economies?
I believe in a global economy 1000%. But i think there needs to be a cap or limits on how much you give away. Between americans donating to other countries, americans buying goods from other nations, we definitely do our part in helping the world.
You know thinking about this argument, this is really not a new argument. I mean most of our clothes are created in foreign countries, our electronics and a lot of our cars. I wonder why hearing about offshoring is bothering me now? Maybe it's the media calling so much attention to it. Maybe i'm being a sheep. Not sure. But it still bothers me.
I believe in a global economy 1000%. But i think there needs to be a cap or limits on how much you give away. Between americans donating to other countries, americans buying goods from other nations, we definitely do our part in helping the world.
You know thinking about this argument, this is really not a new argument. I mean most of our clothes are created in foreign countries, our electronics and a lot of our cars. I wonder why hearing about offshoring is bothering me now? Maybe it's the media calling so much attention to it. Maybe i'm being a sheep. Not sure. But it still bothers me.
DLWarren
Reply #9 Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:32 PM
Reply #9 Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:32 PM
As if my job wasn't in jeapordy as it is. I'm a COBOL mainframe programmer. That is considered a legacy system with all the new desktop technologies. Now my career is in further jeopardy with outsourcing to other countries.
I guess after 16 years its time to go back to school.
I guess after 16 years its time to go back to school.
wombatDK
Reply #10 Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:42 PM
Reply #10 Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:42 PM
Being an immigrant myself I cannot quite understand the problem there. Just to get this off the table first: I didn't immigrate because of a job - I had a better and more secure one where I came from.
I've worked here for a company that does tech support for a very, very big company (guess which). The wages were, for american standards, already low. But still, said big company started outsourcing and still pushes outsourcing, despite customer complaints and whatnot. Why? Their support people in brazil get half as much as their people here. I found a different job (by chance) and am now the network admin for an international but small company.
Fast forward to my current situation: I'm fighting with coworkers because they have old-fashioned and ultimately counterproductive ideas of "job security". My job is to make them obsolete, and in the end make myself obsolete. Many companies have bloated IT departments and employ their own programmers for no good reason. The IT bubble will burst sooner or later, or so I hope. Would you hire a mechanic just to keep your mid-size company car fleet going? Hell no, thats what service companies are for. Everyone outsources one way or another.
The IT industry in the states and western europe has to change - and change fast. There are lots of things indian IT workers can not do. There are equally lots of things only american IT workers can do. Focus on that. American workers have the advantage of living on-site. They have the advantage of knowing the economy and mentality here. The have the advantage of having a much better infrastructure than most of the cheapo india workers.
I've worked here for a company that does tech support for a very, very big company (guess which). The wages were, for american standards, already low. But still, said big company started outsourcing and still pushes outsourcing, despite customer complaints and whatnot. Why? Their support people in brazil get half as much as their people here. I found a different job (by chance) and am now the network admin for an international but small company.
Fast forward to my current situation: I'm fighting with coworkers because they have old-fashioned and ultimately counterproductive ideas of "job security". My job is to make them obsolete, and in the end make myself obsolete. Many companies have bloated IT departments and employ their own programmers for no good reason. The IT bubble will burst sooner or later, or so I hope. Would you hire a mechanic just to keep your mid-size company car fleet going? Hell no, thats what service companies are for. Everyone outsources one way or another.
The IT industry in the states and western europe has to change - and change fast. There are lots of things indian IT workers can not do. There are equally lots of things only american IT workers can do. Focus on that. American workers have the advantage of living on-site. They have the advantage of knowing the economy and mentality here. The have the advantage of having a much better infrastructure than most of the cheapo india workers.
joetheblow
Reply #11 Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:00 PM
Reply #11 Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:00 PM
I am not sure if this is the end of IT jobs in America. As Aleatoric said, the of shore outsourcing doesn't always end up with the cost savings. For some reason companies think that if they are paying the people who work for them less they will save more ALWAYS. The problem is that this is not true.
I wish I had some of the article on hand that I read about this subject. It would seem that once the infrastructure is developed to have outsourcing work you have almost spent the amount you would have for home grown talent... almost.
Then the problem is having data being transfered across several oceans... losing productivity because you don't understand the culture... vital information being leaked out... backlash from home employees and so on.
I too have no problem with outsourcing. It helps developing countries and in turn it helps us as well. (Global Economy). It can be taken too far and that is what I worry about, particularly since I am studding to be in IT.
I wish I had some of the article on hand that I read about this subject. It would seem that once the infrastructure is developed to have outsourcing work you have almost spent the amount you would have for home grown talent... almost.
Then the problem is having data being transfered across several oceans... losing productivity because you don't understand the culture... vital information being leaked out... backlash from home employees and so on.
I too have no problem with outsourcing. It helps developing countries and in turn it helps us as well. (Global Economy). It can be taken too far and that is what I worry about, particularly since I am studding to be in IT.
Aleatoric
Reply #12 Friday, February 6, 2004 12:57 AM
Reply #12 Friday, February 6, 2004 12:57 AM
Outsourcing offshore isn't going to cause a catastrophe in the US IT industry (although it probably will require readjustment).
There's much more to the development process (as an example) than just the writing of code. Some parts of the process can be outsourced fairly easily, and some parts cannot. If you're one of those that can be easily replaced, that sucks, to be sure, but one can always adapt their job skills to compensate.
Part of the arguments concerning offshoring are couched in the idea that there are only some fixed number of IT jobs in the US, and for every one that goes overseas, one person in the US automatically loses a job. That's not quite true. There are losses and dislocations, but the *vast* majority of the jobs sent away are mostly rote coding, and very little of it is actual invention or creation of new products. Jobs in those areas are unlikely to leave the US (at least as a result of offshoring, although we may lose our lead in those areas if we can't work on the dismal state of education).
Government regulation in this area would be both unhelpful and completely ineffective. Government regulation almost *never* actually manages to address what it is they're trying to regulate. There may be some token shiny objects handed out by Congress to placate the masses, but the end result will still be more offshoring (it will just be done through loopholes and under the table, etc). Remember, the State is *NOT* your friend.
There's much more to the development process (as an example) than just the writing of code. Some parts of the process can be outsourced fairly easily, and some parts cannot. If you're one of those that can be easily replaced, that sucks, to be sure, but one can always adapt their job skills to compensate.
Part of the arguments concerning offshoring are couched in the idea that there are only some fixed number of IT jobs in the US, and for every one that goes overseas, one person in the US automatically loses a job. That's not quite true. There are losses and dislocations, but the *vast* majority of the jobs sent away are mostly rote coding, and very little of it is actual invention or creation of new products. Jobs in those areas are unlikely to leave the US (at least as a result of offshoring, although we may lose our lead in those areas if we can't work on the dismal state of education).
Government regulation in this area would be both unhelpful and completely ineffective. Government regulation almost *never* actually manages to address what it is they're trying to regulate. There may be some token shiny objects handed out by Congress to placate the masses, but the end result will still be more offshoring (it will just be done through loopholes and under the table, etc). Remember, the State is *NOT* your friend.
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Reply #1 Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:31 PM
There are jobs that can easily be moved around (wherever), and jobs that can't (or can't very easily, at least). Also, depending on what a specific company does, any salary reductions gained by offshoring can often be more than made up for by other factors, including communications.
I'm very much a market oriented capitalist that accepts a global marketplace, so I don't have any real problem with outsourcing where it makes *good* financial sense (and quite a few companies that are offshoring aren't really doing the math, and they tend to find out that it isn't the silver bullet they were looking for). I do tend to be a bit skeptical about such decisions when the only apparent effect of such a decision is another several million dollars in the pocket of the CEO and other execs, while the promised productivity gains and cost savings to the customer are nowhere to be seen (I tend to believe that if a company is *truly* serious about cutting costs and competing in the marketplace, then they will apply their cost saving measures at *ALL* levels of the company, including the executives). I'm fine with saving money, but hypocrisy pisses me off
I'm personally not afraid of offshoring, as what I currently do involves quite a bit more than just development, and additionally, I've already changed careers several times, a couple of which were pretty much in the same type of context as the current offshoring trend.