Ratings Abuse
Monday, December 8, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
Skins, Themes, Icons, Wallpapers: All of these things have ratings associated with it. Ratings are designed to allow users to better find things that are of higher quality while helping new skin authors improve on their skill set.
Unfortunately, the ratings system is imperfect. Only those with Apprentice access or higher OR have WinCustomize subscriptions can rate skins. But some people abuse their ratings priviledges. Some people will give a 1 to a nice skin and many people will give 10's to terrible skins.
There is even what appears to be the occasional use of rating trading. Where authors will agree to vote on each others skins in exchange for high ratings for their own.
Let me be clear: We can see the ratings. That is, we know who rates what. And they are cross referenced. The Admins actually get a visual cross reference of what a user rates things. So if User A is giving all of User B's skins 10s (or 1s) and vice versa, it's pretty apparent what's going on.
Here is the standard of which rating should be done:
It's a 1 through 10 setup. 5 means average. A 10 means you think it's one of the best skins of all time. A 9 would be one of the best skins of the year. Most skins should get between a 4 and 6.
We have begun prooning ratings to try to make them somewhat more representative. Giving your friend a 10 on a bad skin is not helping them. It is definitely not helping other users who simply conclude that the users here must just have terrible taste. We don't want to have to threaten removing ratings priviledges from users so please, just try to be fair and honest in your ratings.
Thanks!
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JeremyG
Reply #2 Monday, December 8, 2003 5:32 PM
Reply #2 Monday, December 8, 2003 5:32 PM
One way I could think of to remedy this would be to have two ratings.
Personal Taste, and Technical Quality.
This way authoers would get feed back on both how well they did, and how nice the style is...and people who just think something is ugly can give a 1 for personal taste and maybe not be so inclined to give it an ugly rating overall.
Personal Taste, and Technical Quality.
This way authoers would get feed back on both how well they did, and how nice the style is...and people who just think something is ugly can give a 1 for personal taste and maybe not be so inclined to give it an ugly rating overall.
lalfonsob
Reply #4 Monday, December 8, 2003 6:17 PM
Reply #4 Monday, December 8, 2003 6:17 PM
I did rate an author, first because his icons are ugly and not artistic and second because he ripped an icon that JairoB and me did for the kkmenu. I got an e-mail saying that I was abusing the system by rating all of his icons with ones. And I was told that if I continue doing so, I would get my rating privilege revoked. But, if I think that the icons are ugly, why I can't use the rating system to let the author know that his icons are ugly? The e-mail says that I want to get rid of him by lowering his rating. I say no. I just wanted to let the author know that I didn't like the icons. I didn't have those intentions. But I worry about it because the e-mail was sent just because someone thought that was my intention.
Now I'm afraid of rating a person twice.
(Kidding)
Now I'm afraid of rating a person twice.
(Kidding)
Frogboy
Reply #5 Monday, December 8, 2003 6:23 PM
Reply #5 Monday, December 8, 2003 6:23 PM
Without knowing what icon author you rated a 1 it's hard to say. I would, however, argue that someone rating say Food's icons a 1 or Mormegil's 1 shouldn't be rating icons. But there are definitely some ugly icons out there.
1s and 10s should be very rare though.
sig101
Reply #6 Monday, December 8, 2003 6:48 PM
Reply #6 Monday, December 8, 2003 6:48 PM
Did you report the rip to the site admins? Rating other works ones as a retaliation isn't appropriate IMO. If they're ugly, well are they all ugly and one-worthy or was retaliation also what motivated you to rate them on how bad you thought his work was? If others don't agree and rate them higher, your ratings would tend to look retaliatory to those who can see them.
You can also use the comment section to tell an author you think his work is ugly if you think it's important to let him know. That's more upfront and open than ratings which are anonymous to all but the admins/mods.
You can also use the comment section to tell an author you think his work is ugly if you think it's important to let him know. That's more upfront and open than ratings which are anonymous to all but the admins/mods.
[brazen weep]
Reply #7 Monday, December 8, 2003 7:09 PM
Reply #7 Monday, December 8, 2003 7:09 PM
That's cool. Someone rated me a "1" on one of my objects at https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=3&SkinID=2958 and didn't even comment on why! I assume they were pee'ed off because I converted a web animated gif to a dx object and posted it, but as I have said in the past, when I post a simple object like that, I'm not looking for any ratings because, as I always state, those objects were "converted from a web graphic" and I'm just looking to share. But the object itself surely doesn't deserve a "1" but there it sits with one. For the most part, people are usually fair in their ratings (in the DesktopX objects section, anyway). 
But thanks for bringing the issue up front, Frogboy!
But thanks for bringing the issue up front, Frogboy!
Randahl
Reply #8 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:07 PM
Reply #8 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:07 PM
seeems that rating sytems are bring abused in many different "communities" like WC.
But I have to agree with JeremyG, that I think a two-tier rating system would be nice. I have to admit, I haven't been rating things lately because a lot of the time I don't comment either. I really should start again.
But well said frogboy, and thanks for bringing this to our attentions.
But I have to agree with JeremyG, that I think a two-tier rating system would be nice. I have to admit, I haven't been rating things lately because a lot of the time I don't comment either. I really should start again.
But well said frogboy, and thanks for bringing this to our attentions.
Fable4
Reply #9 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:22 PM
Reply #9 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:22 PM
i suggest using a rating system similar to customize.org......where there is an administrator rating and short review, and then a separate rating for the public to use
Essencay
Reply #10 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:25 PM
Reply #10 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:25 PM
I have to agree with JeremyG in that there should be two ratings (personal taste and technical quality). Otherwise, work that comes from a know artist that consistently produces quality work may receive a "1" from someone for numerous reasons: personal taste, completeness, expectations, composition, etc.
As an example, I would be less inclined to give a higher rating to work from a seasoned artist, if the new work didn't move in new directions or somehow improve in quality and completeness from previous works, or didn't support the most cutting edge of skinning, than I would of a similar quality work from a less experienced or "greener" artist. Seasoned artists should be challenged to excel and stay fresh and most do "push the envelope" vs. cranking out S.O.S. By the same token, a newer artist does need encouragement to continue, if there is merit in their work, for they may become the next "great" artist. Shooting them down would just deprive the community the diversity it needs to grow and increase membership. Also if I would not personally use a piece of work because of my "taste", I would be more inclined to rate that piece lower than an item that I would use.
I would finally add that ratings need to be tied to comments. Someone should not be allowed to post any sort of rating without providing valid commentary to support their ratings. Valid commentary not only assists the artist in improving the quality of their work, but educates users as to what "the community" perceives as solid quality work and what is not. "Sucks", "Way Cool", ,etc. are not valid commentary.
I appreciate Frogboy bringing this issue to our attention, but if the Admins of WinCustomize wish to truly provide quality work and knowledge of quality work to community as a whole and constructive feedback to artists, the rating system needs to be overhauled.
As an example, I would be less inclined to give a higher rating to work from a seasoned artist, if the new work didn't move in new directions or somehow improve in quality and completeness from previous works, or didn't support the most cutting edge of skinning, than I would of a similar quality work from a less experienced or "greener" artist. Seasoned artists should be challenged to excel and stay fresh and most do "push the envelope" vs. cranking out S.O.S. By the same token, a newer artist does need encouragement to continue, if there is merit in their work, for they may become the next "great" artist. Shooting them down would just deprive the community the diversity it needs to grow and increase membership. Also if I would not personally use a piece of work because of my "taste", I would be more inclined to rate that piece lower than an item that I would use.
I would finally add that ratings need to be tied to comments. Someone should not be allowed to post any sort of rating without providing valid commentary to support their ratings. Valid commentary not only assists the artist in improving the quality of their work, but educates users as to what "the community" perceives as solid quality work and what is not. "Sucks", "Way Cool",
,etc. are not valid commentary.I appreciate Frogboy bringing this issue to our attention, but if the Admins of WinCustomize wish to truly provide quality work and knowledge of quality work to community as a whole and constructive feedback to artists, the rating system needs to be overhauled.
macrobaye
Reply #11 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:50 PM
Reply #11 Monday, December 8, 2003 8:50 PM
I was wondering why almost every single wallpaper submissions out of the past 50 or so have 8 ratings...seems very odd...even hideous ones do! Doesn't make much sense...
wulfn1
Reply #12 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:21 PM
Reply #12 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:21 PM
jeremyG has it right, two tier rating would also help the artist to know where he/she could improve their work, or expand on it.
I think that the ability to rate someone's work should be permitted to the people who are downloading and using the skins, even if it's a seperate ranking system from the one the "apprentices" and "higher" are using. After all , we're using these skins on a daily basis.
Seems wrong to allow only the elite few choose who gets what rank...But hey, the electoral college does that all the time, maybe it's the way to go....
I think that the ability to rate someone's work should be permitted to the people who are downloading and using the skins, even if it's a seperate ranking system from the one the "apprentices" and "higher" are using. After all , we're using these skins on a daily basis.
Seems wrong to allow only the elite few choose who gets what rank...But hey, the electoral college does that all the time, maybe it's the way to go....
Essencay
Reply #13 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:34 PM
Reply #13 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:34 PM
I don't agree that the general populous should be allowed to rate an artist's product. Apprentice access or higher and WinCustomize subscribers have a vested interest in the success of WC. If someone wishes to participate as part of the community in a greater way, now would be a good time to get a subscription https://store.stardock.com/addproduct.asp?PRODUCT_ID=ESD-SDS-W052&REFERER=WinCustomize since there is a Subscription drive happening right now.
Rednose
Reply #14 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:42 PM
Reply #14 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:42 PM
I'm just a user of other's art work. That being said I think the amount of downloads a project gets, is a rating within itself.
lalfonsob
Reply #15 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:54 PM
Reply #15 Monday, December 8, 2003 9:54 PM
Frogboy: I'm not going to say what author because I think is enough for me and I don't want to start a "war". Also because I don't want to look again like doing bad advertising to that author, I don't want to be exile. But if someone tells me that mormegil or foood released a new icon set, I won't even look at them. I would rate them 10 and get them right away.
I would say that a lot of people have talent and a lot of people don't have it. I understand that. But I know my limits and I can rate my "work" as a beginner. But taking a 32X32 icon and resize it to 128X128 or even worst 256X256 and then apply a filter in Photoshop or another program don't make you an artist. You should be able to see that, is not the best effort. The first time I did an icon, I took a picture of the icon, cut the background and that was it. But when Jairo started to release icons I wondered, how can he do that? I asked him and he told that I need to "hand draw" them in a vector program, export them to PS and apply styles and colors there. From that moment I understood that doing icons was more that resizing images, and apply automatic filters. Ok, that's a step to start learning and acquiring knowledge. But you know is not the best looking icon.
sig101: From the first moment I saw the rip I e-mailed Jafo and he took care of it. I have to say that I rated all of them with ones mostly because they were ugly. After the rip I rated them with ones (Ok, I was angry) I think that's why the admins from this site said that. Sorry.
I would say that a lot of people have talent and a lot of people don't have it. I understand that. But I know my limits and I can rate my "work" as a beginner. But taking a 32X32 icon and resize it to 128X128 or even worst 256X256 and then apply a filter in Photoshop or another program don't make you an artist. You should be able to see that, is not the best effort. The first time I did an icon, I took a picture of the icon, cut the background and that was it. But when Jairo started to release icons I wondered, how can he do that? I asked him and he told that I need to "hand draw" them in a vector program, export them to PS and apply styles and colors there. From that moment I understood that doing icons was more that resizing images, and apply automatic filters. Ok, that's a step to start learning and acquiring knowledge. But you know is not the best looking icon.
sig101: From the first moment I saw the rip I e-mailed Jafo and he took care of it. I have to say that I rated all of them with ones mostly because they were ugly. After the rip I rated them with ones (Ok, I was angry) I think that's why the admins from this site said that. Sorry.
[brazen weep]
Reply #16 Monday, December 8, 2003 10:53 PM
Reply #16 Monday, December 8, 2003 10:53 PM
I think essencay is crazy taking to suggest giving a 1 to motivate a seasoned person if they turn out a POS once in awhile. >
I turn out consistantly new stuff for DX and I think a lot of it is on the "most cutting edge of skinning" as essencay says, but once in awhile I find a cool animated gif I convert for my own use or for sharing, and I upload it. To have someone like you come along and give it a "1" is sort of de-motivating, if anything. Just makes me not want to share as much, you understand? Sometimes I need a break from the mental anguish in putting some of the other objects together. I don't need anyone to tell other users here that my simple object (often aimed at beginners) is any less better than the more advanced ones by giving it a "1", often hiding it from users who have lower ratings blocked on their profile.
If you want to grade all day, go be a teacher.
I turn out consistantly new stuff for DX and I think a lot of it is on the "most cutting edge of skinning" as essencay says, but once in awhile I find a cool animated gif I convert for my own use or for sharing, and I upload it. To have someone like you come along and give it a "1" is sort of de-motivating, if anything. Just makes me not want to share as much, you understand? Sometimes I need a break from the mental anguish in putting some of the other objects together. I don't need anyone to tell other users here that my simple object (often aimed at beginners) is any less better than the more advanced ones by giving it a "1", often hiding it from users who have lower ratings blocked on their profile.
If you want to grade all day, go be a teacher.
Essencay
Reply #17 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:31 AM
Reply #17 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:31 AM
brazen, I agree with most of what you have said, except I didn't suggest giving a "1" to motivate a seasoned person. I think you may have "blended" my reasoning in having two ratings in the first paragraph with my example of how I rate in the second paragraph. Anyway, isn't the whole point of rating a "POS" accordingly, as a "POS",no matter who created it?
I personally don't use any DX stuff, but if I did, I would hardly think that I would rate poorly any of it solely on the fact that it was a converted animated gif. If I'm not mistaken, the whole functionality of having an animated gif on your desktop is for amusement and one would either find it amusing or not.
By the way....
you may be right.... I may be crazy 
Anyway, isn't the whole point of rating a "POS" accordingly, as a "POS",no matter who created it?I personally don't use any DX stuff, but if I did, I would hardly think that I would rate poorly any of it solely on the fact that it was a converted animated gif. If I'm not mistaken, the whole functionality of having an animated gif on your desktop is for amusement and one would either find it amusing or not.
By the way....
you may be right.... I may be crazy 
XX
Reply #18 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:49 AM
Reply #18 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 12:49 AM
Hmm all my rates is just how I feel about skin, or techinical aspect like brazen weep's desktop objects. I agree that people that abuse rating system should cease abusing it.
Griffinme
Reply #19 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 10:18 AM
Reply #19 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 10:18 AM
Kill the rating system or force those that give a rating to post a comment. You could also have designated critics who pick skins and say why they like or dislike them.
wulfn1
Reply #20 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 11:08 AM
Reply #20 Tuesday, December 9, 2003 11:08 AM
I am a paying Stardock customer, Essencay. I have considered adding the $20. wincustomize subscription service to the almost $40. I pay now to renew my OD subscription, but I find it difficult to want to pay for a subscription to a website that is supposedly part of stardock, in fact is linked to in all the stardock products, but wants to charge me $20. to access the ability to express my opinion of the craftsmanship of a skin.
If this website wants to be part of stardock, why not just raise the price of OD renewal $10.-$15.? and I wasn't referring to the "General Populace" when I made my suggestion. I referred to those who had legitimately purchased the Stardock products.
At this point, with the snobbery and elitism associated with the rating system, I think maybe others were right. Get rid of the rating system. Judge a skin by the quality of the feedback and comments recieved.
If this website wants to be part of stardock, why not just raise the price of OD renewal $10.-$15.? and I wasn't referring to the "General Populace" when I made my suggestion. I referred to those who had legitimately purchased the Stardock products.
At this point, with the snobbery and elitism associated with the rating system, I think maybe others were right. Get rid of the rating system. Judge a skin by the quality of the feedback and comments recieved.
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Reply #1 Monday, December 8, 2003 4:56 PM