Stir The Pot

The State of The States

Thursday, March 25, 2010 by Chasbo | Discussion: Off-Topic

Well I know that I'm probably opening a can of worms here but I can't help myself.
 
What do you all think about The Health Care Bill?
 
Personally I think it doesn't go far enough. I wanted Universal Health Care. I think keeping the insurance companies in control is bad. The insurance companies should be placed under direct control of the government/people so that this thing is NOT profit motivated. Make no mistake that this system is still profit driven.
 
What about the death threats to the Dem Congressmen and Women? Put those wacko "Tea Party" people in jail I say. Those Glenn Beck/Fox/Sarah Palin zombies need to be dealt with harshly. I am saying the ones making death threats and throwing bricks through windows and such.
 
How about all those men making judgments about abortions? Hey I got a good idea: Let's let the women decide. I can't remember the last time I got pregnant. The bill removed the government funding for abortion anyway so why do those Glenn Beck/Fox/Sarah Palin people keep talking/bitching about it?
 
Here's another idea: Let's get the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Those money pits sure don't help the so called debt now do they? Far as I can see Bin Laden is holed up in Pakistan so why the hell are we still in the wrong countries? Perhaps the cost of the health care bill could be covered by the money we are now spending killing people in the wrong places.
 
One final plea: Put Bush, Cheney and Rove in jail for the crimes they committed in the 8 years they were in office.
 
Have a nice day.
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Lantec
Reply #21 Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:49 AM

In the U.S. I would have died. I'm glad we have Health Care here.

Where I live (Florida) ANYONE can walk into a public hospital and must receive treatment regardless of ability to pay. It's been that way as long as I can remember.

WebGizmos
Reply #22 Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:59 AM

The bottom line is that they started this healthcare reform crap because everyone was whinning about it...the one thing people seem to be good at anymore, I seriously doubt it was ever the governments intent to actually give anyone better healthcare. They just want you to shut the hell up so they can rob the till some more. And I find it hilarious that they call it healthcare reform...as though there was ever any healthcare to reform in the first place. 

But like I said...this healthcare bill is just a "shut the hell up" bill...don't get your hopes up. Unless people grow a backbone and get serious about taking this country back and get rid of these professional politicians your just going to get more smoke up your asses. Geezus...wake up people!

Any time the people want something the answer 99% of the time is "we (the government) can't afford it"...but when it comes to war or some other halfbaked idea they come up with they manage to find billions for it. And what do the people do? They grumble a little bit then go back to their little lives and grumble a bit more...and then...Hey! The simsons are on!..."reality" tv is on...or some other brain dead program! And why do they do that? Because you've been conditioned to and they know it. And the worse part is...your paying them to do it to you! Ain't that a hoot!

 

Where I live (Florida) ANYONE can walk into a public hospital and must receive treatment regardless of ability to pay. It's been that way as long as I can remember.

It's like that pretty much all over. They can't refuse anyone if they get government funding. But you get the bare minimum of care...nothing more...unless of course your seriously ill...then they can bleed you for all your worth.

natas2
Reply #23 Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:11 AM

"Individuals have less responsibility for themselves and rely more and more on the ever increasing power of the government to shelter and nurture them. Rights slowly slip away in the name of safety and greatness gives way to mediocrity. Taxes  slowly and silently rise for the average citizen, but everyone has "free" healthcare."

Phoon
Reply #24 Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:12 AM

removed by author

OldMsgt
Reply #25 Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:30 AM

All I am going to say is

USA Rest in Peace (RIP) 1776 to 03-23-2010

I went to the levy on the day the Republic died.

OldMsgt
Reply #26 Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:45 AM

RE to JODA

That is not true, Emergency rooms at any hospital would have by law been required to take you. You are spreading a Myth, It is emergency room care for those without insurance that is driving the cost of health care up along with litigation. I wonder if Canadian health care is so great why did the leader of Newfoundland come to the USA for his heart surgery

loukeeya
Reply #27 Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:47 AM

as someone looking in from the outside (UK) i have to say i find it very bizarre that such a rich and powerful democracy is quite happy to let its poorer citizens die from lack of medical care. here in the uk we have the nhs which provided free medical care to all - rich or poor, and we pay tax to support this. i couldnt imagine living in a society where if your insurance runs out the porter from a&e dumps you on the street

 

i am far from being anti-usa but some of its government policies are beyond the pale, the iraq and afghan wars, the backing of israel no matter what outrages they commit.  surely the point of a democratic society is to help and support those less well off - makes me proud to be british

vStyler
Reply #28 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:00 PM

This was never about healthcare imo. More about getting a big foot in the door to socialism

 

Bring on November and they will see what the majority of American's think about that.

Healthcare does needs fixed, this isn't the way.

 

Lantec
Reply #29 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:01 PM

This is my quote of the day : )

But you get the bare minimum of care...nothing more.

and why is that.....because the government is involved.....

From now on that's exactly what EVERYONE will get....

Mumblefratz
Reply #30 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:08 PM

In the U.S. I would have died. I'm glad we have Health Care here.
Where I live (Florida) ANYONE can walk into a public hospital and must receive treatment regardless of ability to pay. It's been that way as long as I can remember.
Not exactly. And there are other ramifications of this that are significant.

Although it's true that anyone can present themselves at *any* hospital in the US and that hospital is required to "stabilize" them that does not in all cases mean the same thing as getting the care that they need.

For example if someone without health insurance is having a heart attack and walks into a hospital then they are pretty much guaranteed to receive the proper care. They may in fact be "stabilized" and then sent by ambulance to another hospital that is willing to deal with "charity" cases but one way or another the person will in fact receive pretty much the same care that someone without insurance would receive.

Now change this to someone needing dialysis on a regular basis. Again this will be treated pretty much the same as the above case where the person will receive the dialysis they need on an immediate basis (again perhaps after being transferred to a more charity friendly hospital) however unlike someone with insurance they will not receive any followup care nor will they receive any consideration for the fact that it's inevitable that in a very short while they will need the same treatment again.

So without insurance the person is simply put back out onto the street and if they are able to make it back into the hospital the next time then fine, their life will in all likelihood be saved. However this is essentially like playing a game of russian roulette and sooner or later they don't make it back to the hospital in time, or they do make it back in time but because nothing has been scheduled the equipment may be in use and the person has to wait. In any case there is far a greater likelihood of premature death that directly correlates to the lack of insurance.

But the above isn't the worst case. The worst case is that you have a form of cancer that is inoperable but that responds well to any combination of radiation or chemotherapy. In that case you can certainly present yourself to the hospital but you most certainly are not in any way guaranteed that you will receive the radiation or chemotherapy that you need. You might receive it if you're lucky and if the hospital feels like it. But the hospital is in no way required to provide a very expensive long term treatment for your cancer. All they are required to do is to "stabilize" you which in many cases is to give you narcotics for any pain and then they're free to send you back out onto the street to die. And this kind of thing happens everyday in the US "the land of the free and the home of the brave".

One additional point and that is the argument that is made that it is someone's *choice* as to whether or not they wish to have insurance. This argument is made on the basis that no one should have a right to force someone to pay for something they don't want. However this is a very flawed argument.

As has been shown above someone without insurance will in fact *usually* receive care and if they can't pay for it then they will in effect receive such care for "free". However it's not free at all. *I* pay for *their* care both by being charged higher premiums to account for the higher costs that hospitals have to pass onto their paying customer because a certain percentage cannot afford to pay and *I* pay for *their* care through my medicare taxes because of the "extra" medicare payments to hospitals that subsidize a portion of non-paying patients.

So instead of being the victim because someone is "forced" to purchase insurance that they don't wish to have, people like this are really "freeloaders" on the system because they know full well they (usually) won't be turned away at the hospital when something catastrophic does happen to them. Plus when someone has no insurance what happens is the hospital emergency room effectively becomes their "primary care physician". Their kid has a cold and they go to the ER. This also happens thousands of times a day across the US.

So by people *not* being forced to have insurance you are forcing *me* to pay for *your* care in the most expensive way possible, the ER. Whereas by forcing you to have insurance we're merely forcing you to carry your own weight and I get the break of having to pay less for "primary care physician" level of care instead of ER level of care for those that truly can't afford it.

The people against this bill say that they object to having to pay for someone else. I happen to basically agree with that sentiment. However the problem is that everyone that is paying into the system is *already* paying for everyone else and is doing so in the most inefficient manner possible. Forcing everyone to have insurance is merely forcing the deadbeats to carry their own weight.

*amazed this thread has survived past the first page*

Obiwan-Shenobi
Reply #31 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:10 PM

surely the point of a democratic society is to help and support those less well off - makes me proud to be british

Actually the point of being American is free to have choices and not be forced by the government to participate in unless entitlement program.  If you wish to help people out, that is fantastic, but I don't need to be forced to do it through taxes and fines especially when the economy is near the brink of disaster.

 

Obiwan-Shenobi
Reply #32 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:12 PM

Forcing everyone to have insurance is merely forcing the deadbeats to carry their own weight.

Not exactly, as the "deadbeats" will just be subsidized by hard working Americans.

Lantec
Reply #33 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:22 PM

free market vs. government run......hot off the presses

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-25-homeless_N.htm

Frogboy
Reply #34 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:24 PM

as someone looking in from the outside (UK) i have to say i find it very bizarre that such a rich and powerful democracy is quite happy to let its poorer citizens die from lack of medical care.

They don't.  The United States already provided Medicaid to poor citizens so that they can get healthcare.

Mumblefratz
Reply #35 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:32 PM

Not exactly, as the "deadbeats" will just be subsidized by hard working Americans
Obviously you either didn't read the entirety of my reply or perhaps you just simply didn't understand it.

"Hard working Americans" are *already* paying for everyone one way or another. Either through medicare taxes or insurance premiums.

There are two types of people that *aren't* paying into the system, i.e. "deadbeats". One type are people that don't bother to get and pay for insurance not because they can't afford it but because they think that they won't get sick or they know that even if they do get sick that the "system" will pay for their care. The other type are people that honestly can't afford health insurance, this second type are usually what most right wingers consider deadbeats and if you want to do so then fine go ahead.

However those hard working Americans that *choose* to not pay for medical insurance are what I consider the true "deadbeats" because they can afford insurance and yet they simply "choose" to have me pay for their ER visits. That's what I find totally obnoxious.

THe deadbeats that will be forced to carry their own weight are those that can afford it but simply choose not to. The ones that can't afford it, can't afford it, but we're already paying double for them to visit the ER every time their kid gets a cold.

Personally I pay $19,200 per year for health insurance for my wife and myself. I happen to be able to afford it. Double it or quadruple it and I could still afford it. But there are many people in this country that *can't* afford that much and believe me in ten years $20K per year will seem cheap.

natas2
Reply #36 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:33 PM

*amazed this thread has survived past the first page*

 

It has survived because it has managed to stay civilized.  Or are you saying you are amazed that it has stayed civilized.  Not everyone wants to get into a knock-down drag out fight over things like this, but there are people out there that will drive things toward confrontation.  Is that what you secretly are hoping for?

Lantec
Reply #37 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:34 PM

So instead of being the victim because someone is "forced" to purchase insurance that they don't wish to have, people like this are really "freeloaders" on the system because they know full well they (usually) won't be turned away at the hospital when something catastrophic does happen to them. Plus when someone has no insurance what happens is the hospital emergency room effectively becomes their "primary care physician". Their kid has a cold and they go to the ER. This also happens thousands of times a day across the US.

Valid point, however, it's NOT because the care is not available.............people are just lazy or uninformed.

HRSA already has free clinics (no one has to qualify) in virtually every County in the Country. Go HERE and put in your zip code........there are 10 within 20 miles of my house.......

the important stuff........

Federally-funded health centers care for you, even if you have no health insurance. You pay what you can afford, based on your income. Health centers provide

  1. checkups when you're well
  2. treatment when you're sick
  3. complete care when you're pregnant
  4. immunizations and checkups for your children
  5. dental care and prescription drugs for your family
  6. mental health and substance abuse care if you need it

Health centers are in most cities and many rural areas. Type in your address and click the 'Find Health Centers' button to find health centers near you.

Mumblefratz
Reply #38 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:36 PM

Or are you saying you are amazed that it has stayed civilized.
Yes.

Is that what you secretly are hoping for?
No.

Although you do seem to be trying to be confrontational with this statement.

Mumblefratz
Reply #39 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:40 PM

Federally-funded health centers care for you, even if you have no health insurance. You pay what you can afford, based on your income. Health centers provide
Do they provide long term radiation and chemotherapy cancer treatment, or dialysis on an on-going basis?

Do they provide long term care that saves lives but totals hundreds of thousands of dollars on a per person basis? I don't think so.

[edit] Clearly this is a much better way to go for routine care for those without insurance than visiting the ER. But my point above is that people do die in this country directly attributable to the fact that they do not have insurance and a lower cost option than the ER does not preclude that fact. [/edit]

WebGizmos
Reply #40 Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:44 PM

 

and why is that.....because the government is involved.....

From now on that's exactly what EVERYONE will get....

It's a requirement if you receive government funding. The hospital that refuses anyone will lose that funding. And just going to the ER doesn't guarantee you anything other than they will do what they can to keep you from dying on the spot...then patch you up and send you home. And in some cases it's far from free.

3 years ago I wound up in the hospital and for 4 days they pretty much did nothing...but I got a bill for over $10,000...which also had some doctors name on their who was billing me for stuff that never happened...in fact I never saw an actual doctor...just RN's...and to this day I still have no idea what's wrong. Great health care huh? Minimum care at maximum cost. Are you F'n kiddin me?

I am so fed up with this...I belong to this party...I belong to that party bullshit....HEY!!! The parties over already and the boat has left!!

And I feel so sorry for anyone that ever fought for this country and lost their life in the process...it was for nothing!!! And let me clarify...what they did was honorable...but it was in vain. The people in this country don't appreciate or deserve the freedom they take for granted! And please...don't tell me you appreciate it...if you did you would excersize that freedom and fight back...but you know you won't.

 

as someone looking in from the outside (UK) i have to say i find it very bizarre that such a rich and powerful democracy is quite happy to let its poorer citizens die from lack of medical care. here in the uk we have the nhs which provided free medical care to all - rich or poor, and we pay tax to support this. i couldnt imagine living in a society where if your insurance runs out the porter from a&e dumps you on the street

 

Lou...How do you think this country got so rich and powerful? Here's a clue...it's called butt cancer! They blow so much smoke up your butt you become stupid from it and die...then they rob you blind. Oh...and there is no democracy...that's just part of the illusion.This is a dictatorship in sheeps clothing....they dictate...everyone listens. They pit everyone against each other and then they spend the rest of their lives pointing fingers and nothing gets done.

Actually it's brilliant because it works so well. Think about it....we have billions of people in this country being told what to do...how to live...what they will and won't get...by a small group of people...less than a few thousand and that's being generous.. that we pay hard earned money to for that privilege. And all anyone ever does is grumble about everything that's wrong. We could literally march on washington and stop it all...but...it'll never happen.

 

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