America Attacked Aftermath and news
Wednesday, September 12, 2001 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
Having been to the World Trade Organization on numerous occasions, I find myself completely stunned by the events. To imagine that gigantic building full of people simply gone is just horrifying.At the same time, the civilized world seems to have come together to join the United States in what may become a coordinated crusade to eradicate terrorism. Such a thing seems impossible but consider this:
If the United States and the world community can retaliate in such sufficient force, then political terrorists will have to weigh their goals versus the inevitable response. History has shown that massive retaliation does work. As barbaric has it has been in history, it was an effective means of keeping terrorism under control. Terrorism has always been with us and will be. But perhaps if the proper response can be achieved, it can be seen in the same light that we see nuclear weapons, that terrorism is so horrible and the consquences of it so painful, that it won't be used as a political tool.
Of course, this all assumes that there was a political ends being sought in some sick way rather than simply pure madness.
NATO has activated article 5. This has never been done. This means that NATO considers what has occurred as an act of war. This means Germany, UK, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, etc. all consider this attack as an attack on themselves and will respond accordingly. It is unprecedented.
Whoever did this, wherever they are, I do not think they realize the whirlwind they have just sewn.
What do you think?
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_Martin_
Reply #22 Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:18 AM
Reply #22 Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:18 AM
... which is the most frightening prospect of all
Frogboy
Reply #23 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:00 AM
Reply #23 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:00 AM
SSL: The United States gave no aid to Chechnya. So please get your facts straight. Secondly, the United states was only critical of Russia's acts in Chechnya when its military was being indiscriminate. At no time has the United States supported Chechnya's bid for independence.
Yugoslavia was a NATO action. A NATO action that targeted only military units. Did NATO try to level Belgrade? No. Why did NATO intervene in the first place? Because the Serbs were systematically esterminating (cleansing) the inhabitans of Kosovo. So why are you condemning the United States in Kosovo and not NATO? And how can you remotely equate military action in Kosovo with the murder of 20,000 civilians in an office building?
The United States has always been against terrorism. How short your memory seems to be. It was the United States who struck terrorist operations in Sudan and Pakistan not that long ago. How about the United States striking Lybia in '85?
But this attack changes everything. I think you'll see a willingness of the United States and the international community to coordinate their efforts and ignore international borders. This is war now. This isn't a police action. If a nation doesn't eliminate the terrorists in their own borders, you will see the Internetional community go in to those nations and clean it up for them by force.
Yugoslavia was a NATO action. A NATO action that targeted only military units. Did NATO try to level Belgrade? No. Why did NATO intervene in the first place? Because the Serbs were systematically esterminating (cleansing) the inhabitans of Kosovo. So why are you condemning the United States in Kosovo and not NATO? And how can you remotely equate military action in Kosovo with the murder of 20,000 civilians in an office building?
The United States has always been against terrorism. How short your memory seems to be. It was the United States who struck terrorist operations in Sudan and Pakistan not that long ago. How about the United States striking Lybia in '85?
But this attack changes everything. I think you'll see a willingness of the United States and the international community to coordinate their efforts and ignore international borders. This is war now. This isn't a police action. If a nation doesn't eliminate the terrorists in their own borders, you will see the Internetional community go in to those nations and clean it up for them by force.
_Martin_
Reply #24 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:10 AM
Reply #24 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:10 AM
I agree with Frogboy's comments whole heartedly.
My only fear is that only a few countries will bear the burden of risking their people's lives to do this.
It appears (and this is based on impression rather than hard fact), that in the majority of cases (especially within Europe) it is left largely to the US and UK to provide the military might (with occassional support from Canada and other European nations).
My only fear is that only a few countries will bear the burden of risking their people's lives to do this.
It appears (and this is based on impression rather than hard fact), that in the majority of cases (especially within Europe) it is left largely to the US and UK to provide the military might (with occassional support from Canada and other European nations).
feline
Reply #25 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:25 AM
Reply #25 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:25 AM
i am feeling confused by this whole thing
this is a great tragerty, but one view that is starting to emerge in the UK news is that what is important is how may UK citicens have died, rather than how many people have died.
why is the death of some total stranger from one contry far more "important" than the death of a total stranger from a different contry?
personally i feel that these people should be given more even consideration. i somehow suspect that if this had happened in the middle of a 3rd world contry then western news would be far less exctited by this tragic event.
this is a great tragerty, but one view that is starting to emerge in the UK news is that what is important is how may UK citicens have died, rather than how many people have died.
why is the death of some total stranger from one contry far more "important" than the death of a total stranger from a different contry?
personally i feel that these people should be given more even consideration. i somehow suspect that if this had happened in the middle of a 3rd world contry then western news would be far less exctited by this tragic event.
_Martin_
Reply #26 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:45 AM
Reply #26 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:45 AM
I don't thing you'll find we in the UK, and the UK news are doing this at all.
I believe it is a method of highlighting how this was not purely an attack on the United States, but on the entire democratic community. The WTC is a target specifically because it is international. If the aim was to strike at the US specifically, there would have been more appropriate targets.
The UK media is definitely focussing on the international tragedy, but the way to avoid to mentality of "it was an attack on the US" is to strike home the local impact.
I honestly believe (and thing most countries would agree) that the UK media (especially the BBC) is one of the most respected media in terms of honesty and impartiality.
I believe it is a method of highlighting how this was not purely an attack on the United States, but on the entire democratic community. The WTC is a target specifically because it is international. If the aim was to strike at the US specifically, there would have been more appropriate targets.
The UK media is definitely focussing on the international tragedy, but the way to avoid to mentality of "it was an attack on the US" is to strike home the local impact.
I honestly believe (and thing most countries would agree) that the UK media (especially the BBC) is one of the most respected media in terms of honesty and impartiality.
paxx
Reply #27 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:55 AM
Reply #27 Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:55 AM
Frogboy, unfortunately, that is not entirely true. There are no longer any cases now where the US is supporting any terrorist (not that we know of, anyway) but this was not always the case.
For 10 years, the CIA founded Ben Laden's group himself in the 80's when he was fighting against the Soviet invation in Afganistan. It only stopped when the USSR pulled away in 1989. Ben Laden turned against the US only in 1990, with the attack against Saddam Hussein, who himself as well was once a US puppet when he was fighting against Iran.
In not way am I even hinting the US people deserved what just happed. I just wanted to get the facts straight and remind you that indeed the USA did once support terrorism.
For 10 years, the CIA founded Ben Laden's group himself in the 80's when he was fighting against the Soviet invation in Afganistan. It only stopped when the USSR pulled away in 1989. Ben Laden turned against the US only in 1990, with the attack against Saddam Hussein, who himself as well was once a US puppet when he was fighting against Iran.
In not way am I even hinting the US people deserved what just happed. I just wanted to get the facts straight and remind you that indeed the USA did once support terrorism.
_Martin_
Reply #29 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:06 PM
Reply #29 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:06 PM
This highlights the key issue which is the definition of terrorism:
1) A weed is just a plant growing where you don't want it
2) Pollution is a substance in a place where it impacts negatively on the environment
... therefore to some extent ....
3) Terrorism is an armed campaign of fear which negatively impacts on you.
Not to push a point, but some Irish-Americans fund the IRA because it is a cause (i.e. doesn't impact on them), to UK citizens the IRA are terrorists (because it impacts on us)
1) A weed is just a plant growing where you don't want it
2) Pollution is a substance in a place where it impacts negatively on the environment
... therefore to some extent ....
3) Terrorism is an armed campaign of fear which negatively impacts on you.
Not to push a point, but some Irish-Americans fund the IRA because it is a cause (i.e. doesn't impact on them), to UK citizens the IRA are terrorists (because it impacts on us)
Amerasu
Reply #30 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:06 PM
Reply #30 Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:06 PM
okay... hmm... looks like the server thinks it needs to add the http://scripts.wincustomize.com/ prefix to my link...
anyone know how to get around this?
here's the URL anyways...
216.122.237.172/australian.jpg
anyone know how to get around this?
here's the URL anyways...
216.122.237.172/australian.jpg
migellito
Reply #31 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:17 PM
Reply #31 Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:17 PM
paxx, my good friend 
actually, at the time they were backed by US funds and personnel, the afghani forces were not engaged in terrorism. they were simply one of the elements defending against the CCCP military. unfortunately, once common goals are eliminated, people often realize how very different their long-term, wide-angle agendas are.
actually, at the time they were backed by US funds and personnel, the afghani forces were not engaged in terrorism. they were simply one of the elements defending against the CCCP military. unfortunately, once common goals are eliminated, people often realize how very different their long-term, wide-angle agendas are.
paxx
Reply #32 Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:24 PM
Reply #32 Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:24 PM
Man, I just read some more news... Looks lika a massive attack in preparing... If you live in Afganistan at the moment, take the next plane out!!! RUN!
Man, this is so scary. I don't even want to think about the future at the moment...
Man, this is so scary. I don't even want to think about the future at the moment...
Frogboy
Reply #33 Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:51 PM
Reply #33 Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:51 PM
Something to consider:
The Japanese probably never imagined that the attack on Pearl Harbor which killed around 2500 people would end with 2 of their cities being incinerated by nuclear weapons.
This attack is far worse than Pearl Harbor. I wouldn't be surprised to see tactical (key word tactical) nuclear weapons used on these bases to ensure that the base and everyone in it is gone. They woudln't be dropped on cities of course. But with article 5 of NATO activated, everything is on the table. I don't think the average person is aware of what article 5 means in the fine print.
The Japanese probably never imagined that the attack on Pearl Harbor which killed around 2500 people would end with 2 of their cities being incinerated by nuclear weapons.
This attack is far worse than Pearl Harbor. I wouldn't be surprised to see tactical (key word tactical) nuclear weapons used on these bases to ensure that the base and everyone in it is gone. They woudln't be dropped on cities of course. But with article 5 of NATO activated, everything is on the table. I don't think the average person is aware of what article 5 means in the fine print.
Paul Andree
Reply #34 Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:55 PM
Reply #34 Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:55 PM
My feelings are very well articualted by this gentleman at the Miami Herald. Take the time to read this....
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565.htm
_Martin_
Reply #35 Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
Reply #35 Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:52 PM
And it is these sort of sentiments that are the most dangerous. I understand why this man and no doubt many others feel this way, and to some extend concur, but the tone is PURELY one of anger.
The biggest risk is of retaliation without consideration. This article exudes an arrogance and a sense of superiority which is precisely the sort of attitude which the terrorists justify their actions upon.
The time of the SuperPower is gone, it is time to realise that no nation is beyond the reach of terror. It is now an international conflict of good vs evil. That's not to sound apocalyptic but a fundamental time when the 99.9% of the world which is reasonable lets the 0.1% know their attitudes are unacceptable.
A rational reasoned case against the individuals and/or nations that are responsible for this attrocity, and appropriate action (be it diplomatic or military) is the correct course of action.
The biggest risk is of retaliation without consideration. This article exudes an arrogance and a sense of superiority which is precisely the sort of attitude which the terrorists justify their actions upon.
The time of the SuperPower is gone, it is time to realise that no nation is beyond the reach of terror. It is now an international conflict of good vs evil. That's not to sound apocalyptic but a fundamental time when the 99.9% of the world which is reasonable lets the 0.1% know their attitudes are unacceptable.
A rational reasoned case against the individuals and/or nations that are responsible for this attrocity, and appropriate action (be it diplomatic or military) is the correct course of action.
paxx
Reply #36 Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:55 PM
Reply #36 Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:55 PM
The problem is that the leaders can very easily hide in the mountains of Afganistan. It could be an impossible job to locate them... What then?
I sure hope there will be no bombing of the cities...
I sure hope there will be no bombing of the cities...
_Martin_
Reply #37 Thursday, September 13, 2001 5:40 PM
Reply #37 Thursday, September 13, 2001 5:40 PM
My point exactly ... whatever the response it needs to be measured and precise.
TheSkinsFactory
Reply #38 Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:14 PM
Reply #38 Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:14 PM
I'll say here what i said on our site...
Our love and respect to the Brave New Yor City Firefighters and Police Officers who gave their lives in the Line of Duty.
You will always be our heroes.
superheroes arent only in comic books. They are our neighbors, our brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers. They are our military, police, firefighters and paramedics. They are the stranger who puts their own lives in danger and sacrifice themselves for the good of others. The men on the flight that crashed in Penn are true american heroes and we need to recognize that. As a person born in NYC, i am proud of the new yorkers for stepping up and helping as i am proud to be an american. I feel a sense of closeness more now than ever with all the other countries who feel the pain we are feeling and are willing to step up and help us. In light of the terrible things that have happened it feels good to be an american and it feels good to be part of a caring global village.
Jeff
Our love and respect to the Brave New Yor City Firefighters and Police Officers who gave their lives in the Line of Duty.
You will always be our heroes.
superheroes arent only in comic books. They are our neighbors, our brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers. They are our military, police, firefighters and paramedics. They are the stranger who puts their own lives in danger and sacrifice themselves for the good of others. The men on the flight that crashed in Penn are true american heroes and we need to recognize that. As a person born in NYC, i am proud of the new yorkers for stepping up and helping as i am proud to be an american. I feel a sense of closeness more now than ever with all the other countries who feel the pain we are feeling and are willing to step up and help us. In light of the terrible things that have happened it feels good to be an american and it feels good to be part of a caring global village.
Jeff
craeonics
Reply #40 Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:53 PM
Reply #40 Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:53 PM
craeonics is going to give his true opinion here, without taking other people's feeling into account, so be warned
No disrespect (and this has barely slipped through my "don't say that, crae" filter), but feline has a point there. Many of you would not have lost one moment of sleep over this, had it happenen in say, Cambodya. That is why the British media are highlighting the Britains killed in the accident. Events like these and the reactions they invoke make me think that this world would be a better place without the human race and its hypocrisy. *spits*
No disrespect (and this has barely slipped through my "don't say that, crae" filter), but feline has a point there. Many of you would not have lost one moment of sleep over this, had it happenen in say, Cambodya. That is why the British media are highlighting the Britains killed in the accident. Events like these and the reactions they invoke make me think that this world would be a better place without the human race and its hypocrisy. *spits*
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Reply #21 Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:52 AM