a meditation on favoritism...
Friday, June 8, 2001 by kenray | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
firstly, don't get me wrong.
as a practicing Nazerite, i would love it if i could show my Bible at teh QT Mart and get half off my cigarettes...
Whilst browsing the coolplayer section, i notice a subset for "Christian"
does this not invite the question,
"If we subset for one religion, should we not subset for all?"
why not a "Hindu" section, or a "Buddhist" section, or a "Jewish" seciton?
Are we Christians so prevalent and artistically active that we deserve a subset?
Or is this a nod to the English speaking, Western Hemispherical crew who dominate this side fo the planet?
Don't get me wrong. I practice, adn i pray, and I love the special treatment.
Still, soemhting about that just doesn't strike me as fair.
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
Yep, thats what HE said.
as a practicing Nazerite, i would love it if i could show my Bible at teh QT Mart and get half off my cigarettes...
Whilst browsing the coolplayer section, i notice a subset for "Christian"
does this not invite the question,
"If we subset for one religion, should we not subset for all?"
why not a "Hindu" section, or a "Buddhist" section, or a "Jewish" seciton?
Are we Christians so prevalent and artistically active that we deserve a subset?
Or is this a nod to the English speaking, Western Hemispherical crew who dominate this side fo the planet?
Don't get me wrong. I practice, adn i pray, and I love the special treatment.
Still, soemhting about that just doesn't strike me as fair.
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
Yep, thats what HE said.
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Doreen
Reply #62 Monday, June 11, 2001 5:31 PM
Reply #62 Monday, June 11, 2001 5:31 PM
I know 
I just thought that was funny, some of my Christian friends and also my pastor rides a Harley, (that is why I laughed)
I just thought that was funny, some of my Christian friends and also my pastor rides a Harley, (that is why I laughed)
Jafo
Reply #63 Monday, June 11, 2001 5:56 PM
Reply #63 Monday, June 11, 2001 5:56 PM
I hated church....it took valuable time out of my weekends....and my mother was the Sunday School teacher, too....
I did learn one or two things, though....
We have God and Religion to thank for the majority of the world's violence and blood-shed over the generations of global conflict.
All due to the lack of tolerance of one religion to co-exist with any other, although one of the pivotal teachings of religion is 'tolerance' or 'love thy neighbour' - call it what you will.
I gave up on organized Religion when I could no longer stomach the fucking hypocrisy.
Sorry, people, but look really closely at pretty-well any conflict in the world, and ask where is your 'God' and what is his/her thoughts?....
Jafo gets off soap-box now, and returns to good-humoured Spell-checker once more...
I did learn one or two things, though....
We have God and Religion to thank for the majority of the world's violence and blood-shed over the generations of global conflict.
All due to the lack of tolerance of one religion to co-exist with any other, although one of the pivotal teachings of religion is 'tolerance' or 'love thy neighbour' - call it what you will.
I gave up on organized Religion when I could no longer stomach the fucking hypocrisy.
Sorry, people, but look really closely at pretty-well any conflict in the world, and ask where is your 'God' and what is his/her thoughts?....
Jafo gets off soap-box now, and returns to good-humoured Spell-checker once more...
jtfolden
Reply #64 Monday, June 11, 2001 6:13 PM
Reply #64 Monday, June 11, 2001 6:13 PM
Quite true jafo, though I'd been steering clear of bringing it up. 
I suppose it's just good that the US wasn't founded as a Christian nation or a lot of us here might have been hanged or thrown out by the fundies...
I suppose it's just good that the US wasn't founded as a Christian nation or a lot of us here might have been hanged or thrown out by the fundies...
kenray
Reply #65 Monday, June 11, 2001 7:20 PM
Reply #65 Monday, June 11, 2001 7:20 PM
Well, I for one beleive that there is a God, an active, living Spirit that can affect your life.
I alwasys tell my Scientifical friends to take a look at the "Big Bang" theory form one step back...they say the world was created in a big explosion...in order to have an explosion, you need material and energy. Where did the material and energy for the Big Bang come from.
and this too:
i can't beleive that the Almighty is just a "bean counter in the sky", running some giant abacus of our good deeds and our bad.
------------------------------------
Doreen, you shoudl not see this as a cornering of tman. thats not what it is. for the most part, this thread has been a "meditation", a sharing of ideas, about putting a "Christian" subcategory on this particualr website.
And, for the most part, everyone has been (mostly) polite while expressing their different beleifs on teh subject matter, which makes me think there are a lot of nice peopel here.
I alwasys tell my Scientifical friends to take a look at the "Big Bang" theory form one step back...they say the world was created in a big explosion...in order to have an explosion, you need material and energy. Where did the material and energy for the Big Bang come from.
and this too:
i can't beleive that the Almighty is just a "bean counter in the sky", running some giant abacus of our good deeds and our bad.
------------------------------------
Doreen, you shoudl not see this as a cornering of tman. thats not what it is. for the most part, this thread has been a "meditation", a sharing of ideas, about putting a "Christian" subcategory on this particualr website.
And, for the most part, everyone has been (mostly) polite while expressing their different beleifs on teh subject matter, which makes me think there are a lot of nice peopel here.
Doreen
Reply #66 Monday, June 11, 2001 7:32 PM
Reply #66 Monday, June 11, 2001 7:32 PM
I know ken
I read wrong...
I "Felt" T-Man was being cornered, I thought he was serious and under pressure.
and I have a problem w/ jumping in to back up when I "SHOULD" just learn to mind my own business...
sorry guys
I read wrong...
I "Felt" T-Man was being cornered, I thought he was serious and under pressure.
and I have a problem w/ jumping in to back up when I "SHOULD" just learn to mind my own business...
sorry guys
paxx
Reply #67 Monday, June 11, 2001 10:11 PM
Reply #67 Monday, June 11, 2001 10:11 PM
Jafo, I had a historian friend that told me once that religion wars never existed. It has always been, and still is about money and power. The religion bit is what the governments told their people.
Official statement from the King to his people and soldiers: Lets free Jerusalem from the unholy Saladin!
Pope to the King: We can't let the Saracens control this region rich in spices and gold.
But that is just an interpretation of History. But then again, that's what history is all about: interpretations. But I think I support that opinion, it definetly makes a lot of sense.
Kenray, you ask "Where did the material and energy for the Big Bang come from?", then I'll ask the same question: "Where did God come from?". I know your answer, so I can tell you that mine is the same as yours.
Official statement from the King to his people and soldiers: Lets free Jerusalem from the unholy Saladin!
Pope to the King: We can't let the Saracens control this region rich in spices and gold.
But that is just an interpretation of History. But then again, that's what history is all about: interpretations. But I think I support that opinion, it definetly makes a lot of sense.
Kenray, you ask "Where did the material and energy for the Big Bang come from?", then I'll ask the same question: "Where did God come from?". I know your answer, so I can tell you that mine is the same as yours.
kenray
Reply #68 Monday, June 11, 2001 11:40 PM
Reply #68 Monday, June 11, 2001 11:40 PM
and one more thing about us Christians here in america.
we say "In God We Trust"
God says "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
God says, "Vengeance is mine"
and today, we americans, in our wisdom and love, in our holiness and kindness, well, today we killed a man.
federally.
which means that each of us who vote, pay taxes and have social security numbers, each of us in a little way, held the sword and commited murder.
are'nt we a funny sort?
we say "In God We Trust"
God says "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
God says, "Vengeance is mine"
and today, we americans, in our wisdom and love, in our holiness and kindness, well, today we killed a man.
federally.
which means that each of us who vote, pay taxes and have social security numbers, each of us in a little way, held the sword and commited murder.
are'nt we a funny sort?
Jafo
Reply #69 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:12 AM
Reply #69 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:12 AM
kenray....if it would ease your collective consciences...I would gladly have topped him for you, and not batted an eye-lid.
Rabid animals of any species endanger and defile our very existence....If he were fat enough, each victim could have had his pound of flesh..
The real blot on society is its willingness to allow people to have access to weapons of destruction and mass-murder...and ironically that is considered a 'right' in the US.....what a load of tripe....
Any minute now, I'm gonna start throwing slain children's bodies at Chuckie Heston and his clan.....
Jafo trips and falls off soap-box yet again....muttering 'debate is good.....totally useless, but good'...
Rabid animals of any species endanger and defile our very existence....If he were fat enough, each victim could have had his pound of flesh..
The real blot on society is its willingness to allow people to have access to weapons of destruction and mass-murder...and ironically that is considered a 'right' in the US.....what a load of tripe....
Any minute now, I'm gonna start throwing slain children's bodies at Chuckie Heston and his clan.....
Jafo trips and falls off soap-box yet again....muttering 'debate is good.....totally useless, but good'...
jcg
Reply #70 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:22 AM
Reply #70 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:22 AM
While many religions have much to be ashamed of regarding persecution of others, the fact remains, the worst atrocities ever inflicted by man against his fellow man have been perpetrated by atheistic societies against their own citizens. The excuse that religion is the cause of all the worlds wars/misery is not sustainable.
Third Eye
Reply #71 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:26 AM
Reply #71 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:26 AM
Every religion comes down to 2 things. What is right and what is wrong. But ultimately who are we to tell another what is right or wrong for them?
jcg - Religion, as it has been for many thousands of years, is used to control. It is used to place fear into the unknowing and in turn keeps them in line and out of the way. Jesus was a terrorist. He had a new way for people to live, but it went against the Romans so what did they do? They crucified him because he threatened their power and control. Everything is for power and control. Be it ones own self power and control or to have power and control over another.
It has been proven that cultures 20,000 + years ago had the intelligence that we have and more. They understood and knew how to use the land and it's life to heal both the body and soul. What do we use? a bunch of chemicals and artificial ingredients to help heal and nourish. and in the end it only hurts us. Heart disease and cancer has become more and more prevalent since the invention of "refined" sugar in America.
And to those who actually think that the crusades were righteous and justified... are you actually saying that all of the knowledge and wisdom that was lost when they tried to destroy the books and culture of the other cultures was a good thing? They knew about every planet in our solar system without even having a telescope! HELLO McFly?! What about the book of Geometry that the Mayans had that was found some years back that had survived the crusades?
I believe that there was a Jesus, if that was his true name, and I believed he had a great understanding of this illusion we call our 3 dimensional reality, but I will and cannot believe that the church has stayed true to his original teachings. Anyone seen the movie Stigmata? Has anyone read the Gospels of St. Thomas? These writing were found near were they found the Dead Sea scrolls. They are said to be the actual words of Jesus BUT the church has denounced them as heresy. Know why?
This is why, Jesus said:
If your guides claim that the kingdom is in the sky, the birds of the sky will be there before you. If they see it is in the sea, the fishes of the sea will be there before you.
The kingdom is within you and without you.
When you know yourselves, you will be known.
Then you shall know that you are Sons of the Living Father.
But if you do not know yourselves you are in poverty, and you are poverty.
This statement alone denounces the church as a controlling body and it quite clearly states that you do not need to go to a church to pray nor do you do not need to fear this fictitious place called hell. Seriously, do you think that there is this red guy sitting in flames waiting to torment you for all eternity? Sounds like a fear tactic to control people with a lesser intelligence to me.
One more thing... Who gave King James the right to rewrite the bible? And why do you think he did this?
Just look around people. I respect what everyone believes, but belief is not knowledge.
jcg - Religion, as it has been for many thousands of years, is used to control. It is used to place fear into the unknowing and in turn keeps them in line and out of the way. Jesus was a terrorist. He had a new way for people to live, but it went against the Romans so what did they do? They crucified him because he threatened their power and control. Everything is for power and control. Be it ones own self power and control or to have power and control over another.
It has been proven that cultures 20,000 + years ago had the intelligence that we have and more. They understood and knew how to use the land and it's life to heal both the body and soul. What do we use? a bunch of chemicals and artificial ingredients to help heal and nourish. and in the end it only hurts us. Heart disease and cancer has become more and more prevalent since the invention of "refined" sugar in America.
And to those who actually think that the crusades were righteous and justified... are you actually saying that all of the knowledge and wisdom that was lost when they tried to destroy the books and culture of the other cultures was a good thing? They knew about every planet in our solar system without even having a telescope! HELLO McFly?! What about the book of Geometry that the Mayans had that was found some years back that had survived the crusades?
I believe that there was a Jesus, if that was his true name, and I believed he had a great understanding of this illusion we call our 3 dimensional reality, but I will and cannot believe that the church has stayed true to his original teachings. Anyone seen the movie Stigmata? Has anyone read the Gospels of St. Thomas? These writing were found near were they found the Dead Sea scrolls. They are said to be the actual words of Jesus BUT the church has denounced them as heresy. Know why?
This is why, Jesus said:
If your guides claim that the kingdom is in the sky, the birds of the sky will be there before you. If they see it is in the sea, the fishes of the sea will be there before you.
The kingdom is within you and without you.
When you know yourselves, you will be known.
Then you shall know that you are Sons of the Living Father.
But if you do not know yourselves you are in poverty, and you are poverty.
This statement alone denounces the church as a controlling body and it quite clearly states that you do not need to go to a church to pray nor do you do not need to fear this fictitious place called hell. Seriously, do you think that there is this red guy sitting in flames waiting to torment you for all eternity? Sounds like a fear tactic to control people with a lesser intelligence to me.
One more thing... Who gave King James the right to rewrite the bible? And why do you think he did this?
Just look around people. I respect what everyone believes, but belief is not knowledge.
craeonics
Reply #72 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:26 AM
Reply #72 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:26 AM
Which is why it is called "belief" and not "fact". Religion may have started out as a means of explaning the world around us back in our animistic days, but enter the shaman... Nowadays it's merely a means of power.
feline
Reply #73 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:21 AM
Reply #73 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:21 AM
Third Eye - One more thing... Who gave King James the right to rewrite the bible? And why do you think he did this?
i read a book about the history of the bible a few years ago, and it said that King James commissioned a group of scholars to go back over the "origional" documents, and to produce a "new" version of the bible that was closer to the origional that the one that was in use at the time.
when the King James bible came out, it was burnt as heresy. and now it is hailed as the one and true bible.
of course that all may be wrong, but if true its quite interesting.
from what i have read it seems that often religious leaders of established christian religions dont follow their own tenants, but expect all of their followers to. combined with the vast number of deaths in the name of a religion that says "thow shall not kill", and it is no wonder that many people seem to become disillusioned with organised religion.
personally i accept the existence of god as an observed fact. i also realize that humans are not god. since human language is understandable by humans, any true attempt to describe god (beyond human) in human language is bound to fail. so why get so excited by the exact wording? cannot people concentrate more on the message than the messenger?
i read a book about the history of the bible a few years ago, and it said that King James commissioned a group of scholars to go back over the "origional" documents, and to produce a "new" version of the bible that was closer to the origional that the one that was in use at the time.
when the King James bible came out, it was burnt as heresy. and now it is hailed as the one and true bible.
of course that all may be wrong, but if true its quite interesting.
from what i have read it seems that often religious leaders of established christian religions dont follow their own tenants, but expect all of their followers to. combined with the vast number of deaths in the name of a religion that says "thow shall not kill", and it is no wonder that many people seem to become disillusioned with organised religion.
personally i accept the existence of god as an observed fact. i also realize that humans are not god. since human language is understandable by humans, any true attempt to describe god (beyond human) in human language is bound to fail. so why get so excited by the exact wording? cannot people concentrate more on the message than the messenger?
Jafo
Reply #74 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:35 AM
Reply #74 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:35 AM
Um feline....the word is 'tenets'....
Although it IS reasonable to expect that religious leaders could also be landlords....
Although it IS reasonable to expect that religious leaders could also be landlords....
feline
Reply #75 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:59 AM
Reply #75 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:59 AM
as i recal, for quite a lot of the medieval ages in europe they were landlords
Third Eye
Reply #76 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:40 AM
Reply #76 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:40 AM
feline - personally i accept the existence of god as an observed fact. i also realize that humans are not god. since human language is understandable by humans, any true attempt to describe god (beyond human) in human language is bound to fail.
Humans as an individual are not god but life as a whole is and that, as a fact, will not fail. Now one may "fail" to see this but as a constant it is true. What exactly is "human" language? Can we not communicate without words? Can we not express an emotion or concept just by expression alone? Anyone that has an animal can testify to that statement. Can one understand "dog"? Can a dog not express its need to go outside or it's feelings of love/compassion with just a gesture or motion? It is a learned communication just as what life truly is. Life is a learned communication based on knowledge. As a whole in everything we do we are learning and will always learn. But it is what we chose to learn that enlightens us.
feline - so why get so excited by the exact wording? cannot people concentrate more on the message than the messenger?
You have hit it right on the nose. It is the message that one must "know". It is good to have beliefs but unless you know what you believe it is just a theory. Sad to say, most people are just "lemmings" (for the most known analogy). They except what others tell them and just carry on with their lives.
feline - when the King James bible came out, it was burnt as heresy. and now it is hailed as the one and true bible.
The original scripts that the bible was based upon were written in metaphors. It was written this way to separate the sheep from the shepherds so to speak. If the manuscripts were the actual truth then why did it need to be rewritten?
Interesting though that only a handful of people actually know how to speak ancient Hebrew and can actually read them... but when was the last time someone actually released those manuscripts as individual readings? Hmmm, I wonder why that might be. And as another question to ponder, why do you think they left out the other manuscripts from the Bible?
I respect what everyone has written here. What I write is all IMMHO of course.
Humans as an individual are not god but life as a whole is and that, as a fact, will not fail. Now one may "fail" to see this but as a constant it is true. What exactly is "human" language? Can we not communicate without words? Can we not express an emotion or concept just by expression alone? Anyone that has an animal can testify to that statement. Can one understand "dog"? Can a dog not express its need to go outside or it's feelings of love/compassion with just a gesture or motion? It is a learned communication just as what life truly is. Life is a learned communication based on knowledge. As a whole in everything we do we are learning and will always learn. But it is what we chose to learn that enlightens us.
feline - so why get so excited by the exact wording? cannot people concentrate more on the message than the messenger?
You have hit it right on the nose. It is the message that one must "know". It is good to have beliefs but unless you know what you believe it is just a theory. Sad to say, most people are just "lemmings" (for the most known analogy). They except what others tell them and just carry on with their lives.
feline - when the King James bible came out, it was burnt as heresy. and now it is hailed as the one and true bible.
The original scripts that the bible was based upon were written in metaphors. It was written this way to separate the sheep from the shepherds so to speak. If the manuscripts were the actual truth then why did it need to be rewritten?
Interesting though that only a handful of people actually know how to speak ancient Hebrew and can actually read them... but when was the last time someone actually released those manuscripts as individual readings? Hmmm, I wonder why that might be. And as another question to ponder, why do you think they left out the other manuscripts from the Bible?
I respect what everyone has written here. What I write is all IMMHO of course.
All this Bible talk, Is making me sooo...
JavaBrain
Reply #78 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:25 AM
Reply #78 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:25 AM
What is really entertaining (but kind of impossible if you grew up learning from a church) is to read the bible as just a piece of literature. I, personally, have only been to "church" a few times in my life. But, I have read most of the bible. It is stories of life. There are lessons to be learned, and different ways of interpreting those stories (which is really what makes christian religions different from eachother). But, most literature does have truths held within them and give examples of right and wrong.
For me, I believe that there was a creator. I can not label this creator, because I don't know what it is. Because I have not attended church, I can not relate to using the bible for anything more than it is- a very famous piece of literature.
Now, before anyone starts flaming me, or thinking that I am an athiest, or against religion- that's not the case. I think that churches are good, for some people. Some people need that faith to fall back on. I believe that there was a creator, but unlike organized religious beliefs, I do not label that creator. I don't believe that any religion is wrong, as long as the person involved in it truly believes in it. I am also not a hyprocrite. I did not get married in a church, I don't try to get people to "see my way", and I did not have my daughter baptized. If she, however, decides to go to church, and get baptized when she can decide for herself, I will totally support her. Religion is personal. To ever criticize or fight with somebody about religion never produces anything good. I am actually lucky. Since I do not have one "god" that I believe in, I can openly learn about different religions with an open mind. It is truly fasinating.
Here is an interesting thought of mine on Heaven, hell and death. First of all: Death. Anyone here ever been put out for an operation? While you're out, there is nothing. You do not exist. That is death. Heaven and Hell: Yes, there is heaven and hell, but not as people Believe it is. You live it, it is here every day on earth. You see your new born baby for the first time- that is heaven. Your family dog dies- that is hell. It is constant. It is life. This is all IMHO. Not saying any of this to try and change anyones beliefs, or to pick a fight with anyone, it's just another view point with ideas to ponder.
For me, I believe that there was a creator. I can not label this creator, because I don't know what it is. Because I have not attended church, I can not relate to using the bible for anything more than it is- a very famous piece of literature.
Now, before anyone starts flaming me, or thinking that I am an athiest, or against religion- that's not the case. I think that churches are good, for some people. Some people need that faith to fall back on. I believe that there was a creator, but unlike organized religious beliefs, I do not label that creator. I don't believe that any religion is wrong, as long as the person involved in it truly believes in it. I am also not a hyprocrite. I did not get married in a church, I don't try to get people to "see my way", and I did not have my daughter baptized. If she, however, decides to go to church, and get baptized when she can decide for herself, I will totally support her. Religion is personal. To ever criticize or fight with somebody about religion never produces anything good. I am actually lucky. Since I do not have one "god" that I believe in, I can openly learn about different religions with an open mind. It is truly fasinating.
Here is an interesting thought of mine on Heaven, hell and death. First of all: Death. Anyone here ever been put out for an operation? While you're out, there is nothing. You do not exist. That is death. Heaven and Hell: Yes, there is heaven and hell, but not as people Believe it is. You live it, it is here every day on earth. You see your new born baby for the first time- that is heaven. Your family dog dies- that is hell. It is constant. It is life. This is all IMHO. Not saying any of this to try and change anyones beliefs, or to pick a fight with anyone, it's just another view point with ideas to ponder.
Doreen
Reply #79 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:59 AM
Reply #79 Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:59 AM
oh brother here we go, cant help myself...
take a "Good" look at the Earth, mountains, beaches n the depths of the oceans, look up at the stars n the moon then listen to your heart.
you know there IS a loving God that made that for you!
or does your heart say it's all from a bang? or that you are from the monkeys you go and visit at the zoos today?
if so your brain has not evolved much from the monkey stages... hehe
Doreen runs off to DA for cover...
take a "Good" look at the Earth, mountains, beaches n the depths of the oceans, look up at the stars n the moon then listen to your heart.
you know there IS a loving God that made that for you!
or does your heart say it's all from a bang? or that you are from the monkeys you go and visit at the zoos today?
if so your brain has not evolved much from the monkey stages... hehe
Doreen runs off to DA for cover...
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Reply #61 Monday, June 11, 2001 5:25 PM