I'm one of those you are referring to, Snides, & not only did I take no offense, I happen to agree with you.  I just don't believe putting our incompetent government completely in charge of it is the way to fix what's broken.  It's the incremental accumulation of bureaucratic control & perverse incentives that has screwed it up so badly in the first place.  It is hard to describe to those who don't have to deal with it every day, but the inefficiencies and obstacles to helping people that exist even today are mind-boggling enough.  Healthcare today is a combination of a steamroller of progressively more finely parsed algorithmic control mechanisms & gotcha games (existing only for the benefit of career bureaucrats who must continuously invent new ways to justify their wheel-spinning existence) which have paved the way for a relatively simple imposition of Massively Centralized Micromanagement, otherwise known as health care brought to you by the Ministry of Health.  We didn't win the Cold War, truth be known.  The Soviets just rope-a-doped us into adopting their system.

anyone who's a member of WC , in the context of not attacking people on WC directly in WC, like I won't attack you.

Mind you , I wouldn't go calling the waaambulance to the admins if someone did it to me , I can take care of myself, thanks.

There is no comparison between the events of WW2 and today.  We preepmtively invaded a country we had already defanged and declawed a decade earlier simply to complete Bush Jr.'s daddy issues, to hand a trillion dollars of graft to Buscho cronies, and in the hopes that we could tap that precious oil.

To compare a proven intellectual with decades of public service like Biden with a local beauty queen turned jerkwater governor like Palin is like comparing King Dufus Bush with a Rhodes Scholar like Bill Clinton.  The only thing they have in common is a job position/application.  The rest is night and day.

To hear anyone talking about the occasional verbal gaffe after 8 years of the Chimp in Charge is just ludicrous. 

Palin is just Bush in drag and I've had enough of intellectually challenged ideologues in the White House for one lifetime, thanks.  And so has the country I suspect.  We ALL can't take much more of their kind of leadership.

Your opinion only.  One not so strongly supported by Biden's own words & acts.

Occasional?  As in practically every time he opens his mouth.

Ah, I see .. anyone who is not a member of WC is fair game. By your measure you can be as nasty as you want with personal attacks towards anyone not a member of WC.

I find your attitude not only distasteful but divisive.

As far as hatred goes, it seems just reading on this thread that the hatred is mostly Obama supporters attacking everyone else.

Let's see, Bush is an idiot. Palin is an idiot/bitch. McCain is a bad guy. Republicans are stupid. Whatever.

To conservatives, such as myself, I can assure you we have every bit as much distaste for Obama and Biden as some of you have for Bush or Palin.  The difference is that we seem to be able to behave more civilly most of the time.

You can link to a YouTube video of a bunch of hateful McCains supporters all you want but I see vitriol from liberals/Democrats/leftwingers pretty much every day on the net - including this thread.

You know, the ironic thing is, if ONLY people who pay federal income taxes could vote, McCain would win by a landslide. The 30% of Americans who don't pay federal income taxes are so overwhelmingly for Obama that it completely tilts the system.  In 2004, for example, Kerry won net tax getters (i.e. people who not only don't pay taxes but get money back) 63 to 36.

So next time you get tempted of implying that Bush supporters or Republicans or conservatives are somehow brainwashed or stupid or whatever, let's bear in mind that when it comes to the people who actually pay the bills, they tend to vote Republican.

McCain's going to lose because he doesn't get very broad support (I won't vote for McCain). But that's certainly not an endorsement of Obama.

Not sure where your getting this "statistic".  As far as I know voting is still anonymous by law and such statistics are not being collected at the voting booth.

I'm sorry, Brad, but your argument (besides being a deliberately inaccurate use of statistics) is entire selfish and self-centered in the worst way.  It also defines everything that's wrong the today's GOP and why I, and MANY others, have turned away.  They've squeezed so much blood out of America that they've literally broken the middle class.

As a contrast, let me point out that the people who work for me earn six figure salaries to start. And they, and myself, are overwhelmingly pro-Obama.  Sure a couple of them are Ayn Rand types, but I'm much more of a Warren Buffet person myself, in that I don't mind paying taxes.  This country has been very good to me and as long as I see my money being spent wisely and for the common good, I don't have any problem chipping in my fair share.

But under this administration we have seen ALL of our dollars (rich and poor) drop to nearly 1/2 their value.  You're beginning to see the delayed inflation of that right now, in everything you buy.  We've seen the health care premiums we pay as employers go through the roof, while benefits have gone to utter shit - so we're eating more cost and losing morale...a very bad recipe indeed.  We've watched the deficit under this "president" become higher than all of the previous Presidents combined.  And we've seen 4,000+ of our troops die in a needless war for Cheney's graft while the real saboteurs of our nation, at home and abroad, lounge around unscathed and unpunished.

If this was the McCain of 2000, before he sold his soul for one last chance at the brass ring, you might have something.  But he isn't that man anymore.  Obama is the American Dream personified and that, as a businessman speaking, is what this country is sorely lacking right now.

The American Dream itself is in danger, Brad. And you, of all the businessmen I know, should be most wary of the current state of affairs.  For your business is clearly a luxury item, not a necessity, to anyone..well except for me, I'd die without being able to work my way and you guys, bless you, make that possible.     But seriously, your products are on the frontline of the dispensible disposable income scale and I'd think that seeing consumer confidence return (and hence the stock market) might be higher on your list of priorities than a 1-2% income shift.  After all, who cares if your taxes are cut yet again if you aren't making any money?

I'd rather make a LOT more money and pay a wee bit more in taxes.  But then again, I never was a "penny wise, pound foolish" kind of person.  Funny thing, only one of the billionaires I have worked with would disagree with me on this...and he inherited his money.  Ahem.

Oh, and as always, I would die to protect your right to express the exact opposite opinion of myself and I respect you and your accomplishments. 

Well I gotta say.. if I made 200,000+ a year I would definitely be a die hard Republican hands down  lol  

btw.. I do pay taxes 

Um, let's see... maybe it's the footage of thousands of placard carrying Iraqis chanting "US Go HOME"... maybe it's because US forces are frequently targeted than Brit or other forces... maybe it's because Iraqi parliamentarians are complaining the majority of their constituents want the US out of Iraq... and maybe it's because many Iraqis feel they are worse off since the US invasion.

I mean, it's not like the Iraqis make it a secret they do not like, trust or respect the US Gov't and/or forces.  Sadly, they are very much in a Catch-22 situation, though many of them don't realise it.  The removal of Saddam Hussein's regime has greated a huge political/power vacuum in the region, and if the US were to pull out now, Iran would become a much greater threat, not only to Iraq, but also to Israel and other, more moderate Arab states.  While some Iraqis may not grasp/understand this, there are many who do, and thus resent the US for replacing on evil with a much greater threat.

Whether or not we liked Saddam Hussein, his strong-arm regime was a major, if not the primary deterrent to probably greater evils, given the first gulf war put paid to Saddam's aspriartions to become a nuclear power, stockpile WMD's or even have an airforce. Despite his inability to actually wage a full-scale war, however, Saddam Hussein's regime was still the one power Iran feared to attack/engage in a conflict, and thus it stood between Iran and weaker Middle Eastern states.

Do you have ANY sane reason to back that up? Or just a bunch of liberal finger-pointing that conservatives are so good at?

And there it is! BLAME THE LIBERAL MEDIA!

See, it's easy for the liberals to blame conservatives because they've run the country like total shit for eight years. But every time I see a conservative blame the liberals I just have to laugh. What exactly are you blaming? The legislative branch that's been outside of conservative control for a year and a half? Eight years of utter incompetence and disregard for our country's well-being, over half the country's support, and you'd still rather blame a political minority than the obvious.

If anything, I'd never vote republican because I've never got the impression that any of them, supporters or otherwise, feels they need to be held accountable for anything they do. Whether it's blaming the "Liberal _____" in every political discussion or for use as a scapegoat, or for using the Bible as justification to start wars. It's always everyone else's fault.

Just saw Sarah Palin on the news in damage control, backburning against the burning forest that is the Troopergate investigation into her abuse of power as Alaskan Governor... which of course she denies.

Again, there was a cloud of smoke shrouding the whole issue... but I guess that's what people do when they wish to conceal what they're really doing/have done, rely on smoke and mirrors to distract observers.

Hmmm, must admit that I'm confused and not so sure anymore. Palin's body language, facial expressions and hestitant pauses in interviews tell me she's lying and as guilty as hell... but the very same body language, facial expresions and 'let me think about that one' pauses says she's innocent by reason of diminished responsibility, being she frequently comes across as vague, clueless and far from being the brightest button in the tin.

She's not alone there, tho... quite a few politicians suffer that affliction.  Hmmm, I wonder if Sarah Palin is from the same gene pool as George Dubbya himself... given the often both look like they've lost their cue cards/teleprompters and give the impression they're making it up as they go along.

Wee bit OT, but just to clarify....currently there are 3.3 million members of Stardock's sites, each of whom is obliged NOT to publicly use said sites to attack, defame or otherwise insult his/her FELLOW members.

It's a condition of membership/use of these sites....

I say ban political parties.  They don't do much for uniting our country and bring out the worst in us every 4 years.

Yes indeed!  Hard to beleive but there actually was a time when the government functioned reasonably well and there were no parties!

Most Amerians seem to have forgotten there is any line between opinion and fact. Heck I know people that think Limbaugh is a reporter, instead of a wacko windbag making obscene amounts of money spewing hate whenever he can.

Give me a break, the average American has a two digit IQ and hates anyone that can spell Intellectual.

When did it become a sin in america to be smart and liberal? Why is quasi-conservative neo-fascism thought to be a positive value?

And most importantly why does one have to say they beleive in god to be thought a "true" American?

Qualified to be VP or President? Hell Sarah Palin is barely qualified to be a bible-thumping wacko in a tent revival somewhere.

They're called exit polls.

man...these replies are indeed revealing;revealing as to the poster's knowlege of their world around them, and revealing in their mindset & integrity as citizens of the world...that being said, Excalpius, you truly exemplify the old world meaning of a gentleman in that you are well educated, well informed, maganimous & generous...and Starks, you truly 'know' what is going on on the global stage;your facts are sterling & unassailable unless arguing with an idiot, & as we all know, one never wins those arguments....SK, you too are in the Starks camp and Hawk, bravo! for that manifest statement....nice to know the constituency of a site like this....

I had started a post asking what exactly is "wrong" with Palin, and there were no serious answers, just as this post has shown.  They seem to hate her because she's a conversative, and nothing more.

No, what it does is highlight the difference between liberals and conservatives.

Liberals think that their beliefs determine whether they're selfish or not. Conservatives think that it's their actions that define whether they are selfish or not.

For example, I give more to charity in one year than Joe Biden has given in the last 10 years.

Liberals believe that it's compassionate to support policies that have the goverment confiscate property from one person to give to another based on "need".

Conservatives believe that compassion is a personal responsibility that does not involve the government.

The GOP hasn't squeezed any blood out of the middle class.  I am not sure how you can argue that.  

I am not sure what this has to do with anything.  My point still stands, the only reason the elections are close, statistically, is because those who do not pay any federal income taxes are overwhelmingly voting for the candidate that promises to give them the most free goodies paid for by money confiscated by other Americans.

I don't mind paying taxes either. I feel confident in saying that I pay more than anyone else participating in this thread.  But I don't think the government has an inherent right to my earnings in order to simply hand it to someone else who has done nothing in return. That's not "the common good" that's charity.

You're blaming Bush for the current financial crisis? You're kidding right?  I am not going to touch the whole Iraq thing as we'll have to just agree to disagree.

The American Dream itself is in danger, Brad. And you, of all the businessmen I know, should be most wary of the current state of affairs.  For your business is clearly a luxury item, not a necessity, to anyone..well except for me, I'd die without being able to work my way and you guys, bless you, make that possible.      But seriously, your products are on the frontline of the dispensible disposable income scale and I'd think that seeing consumer confidence return (and hence the stock market) might be higher on your list of priorities than a 1-2% income shift.  After all, who cares if your taxes are cut yet again if you aren't making any money?

Everything beyond food, clothing, and shelter are luxuries.   

Your belief rests on the assumption that businesses aren't adaptable.  I've led my company through the collapse of its entire platform (OS/2) where revenue dropped within 18 months to 20% of where it was previously.  That said, as a worldwide software developer of hundreds of different products, I feel confident in saying that we'll be alright.  

Perhaps you would list the billionaires you work with.  For all we know, your sampling is of billionaire movie moguls or something.  

Certainly Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have no problem with other people's taxes going up. After all, they made nearly all their money off capital gains (15% tax rate).

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet pay lower taxes than I do as a percent.  So it doesn't shock me that they are willing to pay more.

Unlike them, my tax rate is at 35% -- over twice as high as theirs. Because I don't earn my money selling stock but rather through salary like most Americans.

But let's stick with documentated facts:

Since people seem to be okay with using CNN as "fair and balanced" let's use their 2004 exit poll data:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Bush beat Kerry in the last election with every income segment that makes over $50k per year by over 10 points!

The only reason the election was even remotely close is because to the part of the electorate that pays little to no taxes Kerry won by over 20 points.

So my statement stands: People who actually PAY taxes tend to vote for the GOP candidate and the people waiting to be given money taken from others tend to vote for the Democrat.  While you may know people in person who make lots of money and that's very interesting and all, it's irrelevant to the facts at hand.