Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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Reply #22 Monday, February 11, 2008 7:11 PM
With that being said there are some areas that create delimmas.
1) Unlike other software that I use (besides games) this is unnecessary. I somewhat struggle each time that I renew with that in mind. In this respect the customization products are unique. And even with other non essential software in Mind, media players as an example, I would easily choose listening to music or watching a movie over the appearance of my desktop. Once again though I think the products in OD are awesome and just flat out cool. At the end of the day though cool just doesn't win out over function.
2) The big reason that I continue to renew is the content and this seems to be an area of concern. Without good content, which in my opinion has dropped off over the last year (JUST MY OPINION), the software loses it's appeal. I would feel the same way about music for instance. If I could no longer find music that I liked there would be no need for that new stero system. I know someone will say if you don't like it create a skin yourself but that would mean I would end up submitting one more poor skin to the site and besides this argument is somewhat like saying if you don't like the car you are driving create your own. Some people may have the ability but I do not.
3) Finally is the community itself. I have noticed that a lot of responses to forum posts are either dripping with sarcasm or are just rude. This is not isolated to this community though, it is rampant in the gaming community and others as well. Example: I started playing games on a Commodore 64 then moved from there into PC gaming. There was a time when the gaming community was for lack of a better term nurturing along with honest. Players respected one another. But things change and so has that community, for the worse. I have all but quit playing games online as a result. The fact of the matter is I can get insulted at home (don't tell my wife I said that hahahaha) I don't want to log in and get flamed for something I don't really need in the first place.
I have no doubt that the developers and skiinners have put a tremendous amount of blood, sweat and tears into this incredible effort and they all deserve respect. As for the cost of admission, that I think depends entirely on how much each person is willing to pay for make up.
Reply #23 Monday, February 11, 2008 7:12 PM
Ah....good old car analogies...
You buy a car and you expect to get wheels and tyres....and that you do.
Do you get those wizz-bang Centerline mags and 35 profile Pirellis with it or do you need to pay more for those?
Well....that's alittle bit like the Master Skins....
Except....
With the likes of Windowblinds [and dragging the analogy to it's painful conclusion] you get your wheels and tyres with the car...but you ALSO can choose to change them [and keep them] for thousands of others FREELY. Only a few other 'options' require a fee.
That's a darn sight better than any car I've ever heard of....so the analogy is bunk....
Reply #24 Monday, February 11, 2008 7:56 PM
Reply #25 Monday, February 11, 2008 7:58 PM
I wish you luck finding comparable software when you go elsewhere
Reply #27 Monday, February 11, 2008 8:19 PM
Just to be clear Im quite happy with OD. The strides that have been made since 3x are pretty amazing in both stability and performance.
Please bear in mind this isnt "bitching" it's a conversation that can hopefully benefit all involved in the long run, or not
The basis of the conversation leads one to sound "whiney".One key point is this isnt "required" software and as such I really dont need to go elsewhere. I've looked at plain Windows since EZDOSIT
Mitch
Reply #28 Monday, February 11, 2008 9:06 PM
Or... Plus costs no more than Ulitmate, but is only available to people willing and able to beta test.
Reply #29 Monday, February 11, 2008 9:22 PM
I have to say that the community is changing. Since customizing the GUI has become more main-stream, not only the price will change but the community as well. Since the main goal of “wondering how much everyone will like this” to “wonder how much money I can make from this” will cause the attitudes of all the end-users to change with it. Maybe this is where this type of community is headed. Maybe all the communities in the tech-world make this transition and maybe the customizing community is finally making its way to join the rest.
I have to say Wincustomize has sped this along with the implementation of the master Skinner project. Before the MSP (master skinner project) came along Wincustomize was a portal for all skinners to share their art. And quite possible allow a skinner to offer services by advertising their talents. And if a skinner was so inclined he/she could say “visit my web page for some more of my work”, but now that is no longer necessary. Because WC has become a selling point for their products, which I think pulls away from the true nature of WC and that is for people to share their stuff. Some artist have only offered their good stuff (the worth using stuff) for a price. Don’t get me wrong I have supported a few artists for their work. But I think that it shows that we are at a point where the community has made it to a point and changed the community forever. Money is now the motivator to offer good software and great skins. I think you will be lucky to find a great skin being offered by the so called Masters for the sake of sharing.
So many people who want everything handed to them without doing anything for it
True and not true, I'm not asking for free, but this community has always been about sharing, and that is slowing changing. And with that change comes the change of attitude with the users and artist and the devs. With the need to exchange money for all this will change this community to being more inpersonal
I agree, I like being the guinea pig, it made me feel more like a part of the community. A great satisfaction comes from discovering bugs and then someone fixing them.
True, but what gets me is that some artist only offer the great stuff for cash and the rest is stuff you would be lucky to find a fit. Again I support it but, it seems now money has become the reason to make great skins not because they want others to say "wow” There is an artist that seems to make only Master skins. Since the master program began what percent of your skins to you offer for free compared to price.
As far as paying for what Stardock charges for their products, I have no problem paying these fees. Improvements will come, though I have to agree with some of the argument, that some of the bugs do get resolved rather slowly. I personally don't have issue with bugs, but read the forums and you see some old bugs that haven’t been dealt the needed hand and should have. But this part of software development. And do not forget that development is a permanent fixture.
Community Content is what started and built desktop customization to what it is today
If it wasn't for Community Content, you wouldn't be here.
To put this into a nutshell, the fact is that the community is changing and i have to say not for the best. The community will eventually fade out because the customization of desktop will become main-stream. This is how it goes.
Reply #30 Monday, February 11, 2008 9:48 PM
This of course should actually apply to all types of contributors. Whether they submit content, screenshots, or help out in the forums and IRC. All contributions have value and are needed for the community to thrive.
As far as the betas go, I think the problem lies partly in how they are distributed. It’s too easy for users to check “Show pre-release versions” and forget about it. Then they download the betas as if they were updates or new releases, expecting them to work as such. It might work better if you had to sign up for beta testing or make a request to be a beta tester. You will no doubt have fewer testers but the ones who get involved will more than likely provide better feedback. You could also put together some sort of crash report that could be sent in for analysis
Reply #31 Monday, February 11, 2008 9:49 PM
I understand that as time passes some are of the opinion that software needs to be given new and exciting functions to keep attracting new and repeat buyers.. I for one don't subscribe to that. My feelings would be to stop trying to add to a program that has problems going back years and tend to these issues. Then and only then would I add new features. I believe that people are far more likely to pay and repeat buy software that at it's core is completely functional.
I would be more than happy to fully test on an ongoing basis if the work i put into it.. paid off.
I wish Stardock the best as the future draws closer and I hope and pray that it all shakes out in a positive manner.
Reply #32 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:03 PM
All I am going to do is
.People who complain about having to pay for stuff really need to stop complaining. If they want something for free, they can spend hours, days, weeks, even months and make their own stuff and then I bet they will appreciate what programmers and skinners do.
Reply #33 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:06 PM
Umm, Frogboy ... some of your support guys may not be telling you everything
But, from the looks of it, Alberto (and team) is working on these known issues.
February 11, 2008 11:37:59
Reply #12
Not tested yet.
Fixed internally.
Much improved internally.. I dare to call it "fixed".
We are working on it. We can have 400+ animated previews.. it'll be both slow and take too much memory. We'll either have a paged system (recent, 1-20, 21-40, etc), or a threaded system that will load/unload depending on the visible themes.
It should be done by next week.
We are working to solve all inconveniences as soon as possible.
Reply #34 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:09 PM
Okay, let's be honest here. That is not a great comparison. There are plenty of great free options for file compression, personally I use IZARC.
I agree that when you do a value comparison, WB is tough to beat. That said, when many of us first bought the software you could take it for granted that the skins were all(99%) free. Now for the same amount of money we paid in the past we get less and less skins. Not trying to knock anybody just stating how I feel about it. Now it is a bit confusing on what we get for our money, especially with the open support of "for sale skins".
If Stardock started charging 50 bucks for WindowBlinds as long as it came with a great skinpack, AND put it on store shelves I would buy it like any other software. I would not buy OD at 200-300 bucks however, as at this price it would be hard to justify for myself considering I only really use WB.
With uncertainty about where the skinning community is going, the old/current model is a tough sell for me though, even at the current price.
In my opinion as long as Stardock makes it clear what the customers get for their money, it makes it a lot easier for customers to make a decision one way or the other. Not only that but I think it makes it easier for Stardock to measure the success of what they decide to do, and make changes as needed.
Really they should just get Microsoft to dump Plus(it's all crap anyway) and replace it with a nice selection of utilities from OD. With that kind of penetration they should still be able to keep the price reasonable.
Reply #35 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:27 PM
A couple of points for those still following...
There seems to be a misconception of betas around here...Stardock has 2 kinds.Pre-full release betas for community testing(true betas)...and bugfix betas(the more numerous beta)to sort out issues.
To the Masterskin program dissenters...Heres some numbers for you...In 2007 I produced over 80 skins(not just windowblinds,but still skins...that took time and effort).Only 2 of them for sale...out of over 80.
I contributed for years before 2007,but apparently nothing I did beore my first skin for sale has any merit.
(or any of the free skins afterwards) So for 5 years of skinning I have pulled in a grand total of just over 1000$Not enough to cover the effort of creating a single WB.So your whining falls on deaf ears here.
Slider was released with a demo...it got 1 comment I think.
My personal best skin,my favourite...was free.
Reply #36 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:29 PM
Thats an idea I like
Reply #37 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:33 PM
Reply #38 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:35 PM
Jeffrey,
Great comment and you illustrate the point perfectly:
You are willing to pay more for stuff.
But that is what the change is. Historically, the unspoken deal was that we made the software, users would work with us actively to get problems fixed, and skinners would make content.
But now, we still make the software. But only a tiny number of users help us get problems fixed (and I'll try not to be too impatient with people who say "But I posted something and my problem wasn't resolved so I stopped posting). The responsibility for getting probems resolved has been totally shifted onto us -- which is normal in other markets but was not the tradition in the skinning community. It was a partnership, not a producer/consumer relationship. And lastly only a handful of people make skins requiring us to provide even a lot of that content.
On the games side of things, we already have that kind of setup. The serious QA is done by us and we basically hand users a finished product ready to go. BUT they also pay $40 to $50 for those products, not $20.
I can easily see a day where WindowBlinds 7 is a $39.95 product but it comes with a dozen high quality skins plus a year subscription to Stardock Design where they get new skins as they're made for free. And only the really popular programs continue being developed with Object Desktop being $69.95 where it comes with just a few key components but lots of content.
I'm not saying that's what will happen. But looking at how I see things going from here to 2010 that's the direction I see things taking. So there wouldn't be updates to ObjectBar or RightClick or the other programs that just aren't as popular as the core parts. Maybe freeware developers would pick it up or some competitor might come and pick it up.
But the days of $20 programs where the developer is wholly responsible for doing the QA AND the content are pretty much at an end one way or the other.
Object Desktop 2008 will be interesting because it's going to focus on providing a lot of content for customers but have a LOT fewer programs to support.
Reply #39 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:43 PM
Yes but the cost of development has gone up. (People like a cost of living raise occasionally), and the price of the software hasn't.. In reality most other companies push the rising costs of business on to the customer. This has not been the case with SD.
We have more than gotten our moneys worth, in the fact of while content has risen (tho at a slower pace lately) and development is still ongoing, the prices have not been raised .. EVER. We have been very lucky up to this point on that fact alone..
IMO SD may have to raise prices to bring on paid skinners to fill the gaps left by the declining #'s of active skinners and contributions.
Not to mention all the griping threads with no real explanations of whats not working, tends to be a pain and offers support no real way of helping.
Reply #40 Monday, February 11, 2008 10:54 PM
dang HG,we was thinking z same thing...hahah.
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Reply #21 Monday, February 11, 2008 7:06 PM
Brad, remember the public ass kicking you gave yourself about letting the community down? Part of that was poor documentation. Do you not think that perhaps that small act in itself contributed to a very large decline in contributions?
How about a rating system and comment section that knocks the wind out of most all new contributors works? That's not at all conducive to repeat efforts of growth.
Master Skins...
I like the idea, but it just sickens me to no end to open the Windowblinds category, filter it by Vista AND WB6 ready and see in excess of 30% Master content. (which is a classic example of the perils you describe.)I think the program has been somewhat of a double edge, necessary sword in some regards. While I'm sure it's generated revenue for all concerned, I think it has turned away quite a large amount as well.
I would gladly pay an additional $10-$20 per year for an ODNT renewal. I will occasionally purchase a master skin if it really strikes my fancy. I will not however continue using the products if the percentage of free content continues to decline.
While I see your frustrations with the lack of productive feedback I also feel like I've been slapped in the head somewhat. Why don't you do more to promote the lost growth within the community. DO something with the rating system. DO something about the non-productive negativity on comments. Many of us as practically pleaded here for a Works in Progress / Workshop type area where users can get HELP as they go. This suggestion has been flat out ignored.
So, to sum it all up.. I think Stardock / Wincustomize could blossom again. That's up to you though, and if you are willing to endure the growing pains. If not, then I guess it's time to pack up the virtual paintbrushes and remember the good 'ol days.