i WANT this resolved.......
Friday, November 16, 2007 by Vampothika | Discussion: Community
when does a community skin become a community skin when the community is not involved? Where was the post to inivite skinners for harmoney and whitefire2?
there wasnt a post, it was created by maxstyles crew (and maybe a secret select few from the community)
and yet, suddenly its a community skin?
to me, a community skin is when someone posts they want to make a community skin, and people are allowed to volunteer their services to the skin. The WHOLE community knows about it....(unless they live under a rock) its not a secret and suddenly released as community skin.
yet again i ask, why is maxstyles skins being promoted as community skins when its clear that they are not.
This isnt a flame against Maxstyles.....I just am totally confused.........
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Reply #202 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:59 PM
I wouldn't exactly call you a bastard to work with...just a hard taskmaster that wants things to match...nothing wrong with that!
And it also pushes people to better their own skills which is a good thing in the end result. 
Reply #203 Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:43 AM
Yep, that was exactly my thought when I read Zoomba's original article at the time.
So while a agree with Karma's and Jafo's definition, I think naming a non-free skin a community project was initially just an error on behalf of the poster. I don't think he even knew that the WB was available off-site only at the time of posting.
It is not as long as all the other master skinners get the same kind of publicity for their Master-skins.
As an example: A Master-skin plus a free cursor would qualify as a community-suite (two or more skinners at work) and get a "news"-article on WC as a promotion. Another master releases a mini-suite but did all the work himself. This doesn't qualify as a community project and does not get any publicity?
As was mentioned before: Harmony was not labelled community-skin by the authors of the suite. But I hope that WC will draw up some guidelines as how to handle these things in the future, as they obviously lead to some discontent in the community.
Reply #204 Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:24 AM
peace better than war..
Reply #205 Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:39 AM
A 'Community' is made up of 'Masters' - not just many people.
OK..simple word relocation may miss the point....
Masters are ALSO part of the Community. They should not be excluded from Community projects. Some of a Master's output is non-free. That, too is part of the skinning community in this third millennium...
No one said the Masters should be excluded from any Community Projects - but I continue to disagree on the definition of what is a Community Project if you have to purchase the main component.
I have accepted from day one that Masters were allowed to sell their skins. I never had a problem with that at all. But lots did as I recall.
To me if I see a big announcement on the front page about a ' community ' effort I would expect it to be free and if not - then it should be stated as such.
Which was exactly my point. You never called it a Community Project at all. The windowblind wasn't even available at the time that the article was on the front page.
So you get a bunch of people clicking on all the links and downloading all the associated ' free' skins to the Harmony blind and then in the end they find out they can't have the windowblind unless they pay for it at another site. If I were a visitor I'd be pissed off. If I knew before I started downloading the free portions then at least I was informed Id be paying for something at the end. To not inform people they will be required to pay for some aspect of this " Community " project is misleading.
So call it a Community project if thats what you want but at least advertise it properly so people will know what to expect. The term ' Community ' skin gives a way different impression...
Reply #206 Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:48 AM
Reply #207 Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:11 AM
1.Private skins. where only one artist or Team like TSF etc make the skin/suite
2. Closed community skins. where a selected group or teams get together and build a skin, while not advertising it to the public til it's release.
3. Open community skins. Where it is advertised to the general public and all who offer up can take part...or a skinner is chosen for each suite element, from the offers.
4.the envelopment of Master skins in to the "Community skins" has been a new twist on the two "community skin" types. as now there are "Community Master suite/skins" (open and closed). Ie a part or all of the suite/skin are of Master status and for purchase..
This is the way I have understood the skin classifications to be for years..If I am wrong, so be it....
There is a difference between a community skin/suite and a skin with a port or two. typically a community skin/suite is comprised of a group of skinners in collaboration and built upon as a combined suite/skin.. the latter is a where another skinner a ported widget etc or two, of an other artists skin and uploads it to compliment the original...not collaborated effort...
As for the animosity?? there should be none.. It was a valid question, as not everyone is familiar with the terminology of all aspects of skinning...While the question could have been better worded. The question still held merit...
now im off to reminisce.. ahh H.E. the King of Community skins...
Reply #208 Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:27 AM
Words are very powerful they define who we are. Belonging to this community we all have different views; that is what makes this community GREAT!!! I have really enjoyed reading everyones opinions on this subject. But...in every community there are guidelines we must all follow whether we agree with them all or not. Otherwise there would be total chaos and anarchy. Thank You very much to our fine mods; they keep us in check. I do believe that seabass and Jaffo have given all of us a clear understanding of the guidelines on this subject. Everything else is semantics which I have enjoyed reading. btw One last thing WC did not choose us; we chose it!!! guidelines are guidelines they are in every aspect of our world.
Reply #209 Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:47 AM
Reply #210 Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:54 AM
Which is why guidelines need to be clear and precise.
The introduction of Master skins has changes the guidelines. I see nothing wrong with asking for clarification nor do I see anything wrong with voicing my opinion about this.
I try to contribute and I support this site as best I can.
WC may not have chosen 'us' but without the 'us' what would WC have ?
It would just be another site selling 'stuff'
Reply #211 Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:28 AM
Or member.
I still feel, Master Skin's should be posted 'here' first and be exclusive to the sight for a short period before posting anywhere else. I understand that part of making someone a Master is to 'give back' to the skinner as it were..but if the share that WC gets for each sale is really going into running the site, the skins should be exclusive to the site for a period of time.
Reply #212 Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:57 AM
I still feel, Master Skin's should be posted 'here' first and be exclusive to the sight for a short period before posting anywhere else. I understand that part of making someone a Master is to 'give back' to the skinner as it were..but if the share that WC gets for each sale is really going into running the site, the skins should be exclusive to the site for a period of time.
The ' or member ' part was to be just a 'given' Besides most of us that are here a lot would have already known that Harmony was a master skin.
The part about a Master skin being released on WC first was I believe, the initial intent when it first was written about by Frogboy. I recall reading about it - but , since the initial introduction of the sale of Master skins that has changed.
If you read the final post by Master Skinner Z71 on the " Never Mind " thread - he has written that he has had an email discussion about this with Stardock and while they would 'prefer' that a Master skin be released exclusively on WC - they realize this may not always be possible.
So, as much as I agree with you on that aspect Po' they call the shots on that.
Reply #213 Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:01 AM
And I have only one squiggle yet its misspelled constantly...
Reply #214 Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:57 AM
Because it's EVIL!
Reply #215 Sunday, November 18, 2007 11:12 AM
I read the first 2 or 3 posts, skimmed the next few then skipped the rest. Quite ridiculous that something as insignificant as this is being argued over. It's not like some middle east peace treaty fell through, or someone has the cure for cancer and won't share it.
Reply #216 Sunday, November 18, 2007 11:57 AM
Some free skins are by Masters
Some skins cost money
Some skins can be gotten here at WC
Some skins need to be gotten offsite
As long as they are produced by members of this community for members of this community they are community skins.
It would be polite for the artists (or news reporters) to be clear on what is what (free @ WC, pay @ WC, free offsite, pay offsite, part of a mixed suite) but I don't think it critical.
There is no bait an switch here. There was just a uniformed user base. I still don't believe we need hard and fast rules here; just a little forethought and lessons learned by precedent.
But what do I know . . I can barely type.
Reply #218 Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:16 PM
I do understand the problem of definition we're having here. What I think needs to be understood is that to some extent, definitions shift over time, especially in the online space.
Heavy Equipment is the ultimate Community Skin project that everyone points back to because of its scale. And the recent Halloween project from theAVMAN and crew. These are great projects and should definitely be held up as some of the best examples of what can be achieved when members of the community come together to work on something.
But to be a community effort, a skin or set of skins put together by multiple members of the skinning community, it doesn't necessarily have to strictly adhere to how those two projects were handled.
Does it have to be an open invitiation to everyone? No. But the projects that do that will obviously be more successful and more fun for more people.
Does it have to accept anyone that wants to be involved? No. But those that do will likely be better for it.
Does every piece of it have to be free? Again, no. But those that are 100% free will have a more lasting impact on the community and be more fondly remembered.
Just like every skin is not created equal, the same is true for community projects. And I'm not talking quality of artwork necessarily either.
My goal has been to bring focus to any efforts made by the community to do bigger and better things with skinning. I see the MaxStyles sets as a wonderful example of what the community could be doing as far as skins and cooperation. The fact that they get a lot of coverage is partly because not many other groups are stepping up and doing the same. If 4 out of 5 group projects come from the same group, then 4 out of 5 news stories about group projects will be about them.
I originally hoped that by bringing attention to skin sets like Harmony, Whitefire2 etc that it would inspire and encourage more people to get together and work on more large projects like that. Not that it would turn into anger or jealousy over being excluded/not invited to the party/not warned beforehand etc.
I also see a slippery slope with people asking us to start more narrowly defining what does and does not constitute community. Clarification is one thing, but I do not for one second believe we should start to limit and scale down what we consider worthy of being labled as a community project, skin, effort, site etc. The more inclusive, the more broad we are in what we consider community, the more inviting we are to newcomers. The more encouraging we are to people who want to try something new. We're here to grow skinning and the skinning community, not whittle it down to fit the desired definition of any one user.
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Reply #201 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:03 PM