Is art worthless on the Internet?

People will pay for some crazy things but cry foul over paying for artwork

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News

Today Stardock Design released its first "Master" Dream to the Dream (animated wallpaper) gallery. It's the one Microsoft showed off at some of its events.  As some know, Microsoft worked with Stardock to make some of the animated wallpapers for use with Windows DreamScene. Windows DreamScene (the software) is a feature for Windows Vista Ultimate users.  Most of the content we created for Microsoft hasn't been released yet (it will be available from Microsoft).  In the process of creating the animated wallpapers for Microsoft, we made a bunch of extra ones for WinCustomize.com which had nothing to do with our work with Microsoft.

So far, Stardock Design has released 6 free .Dreams and 1 premium .Dream.  On top of that, Stardock has released DeskScapes as freeware and DreamMaker as freeware.  And of course, we host the Dreams here on WiniCustomize which, on their own, used over 2 TERRABYTES of bandwidth.  So from our vantage point, Stardock's been "the good guy". Providing lots of free stuff, lots of free software and providing a free site to get it on. 

But Stardock's also a business. The costs of producing all this has to be made up somewhere or else we wouldn't be able to keep doing it.  But some people seem to be very vocal in their outrage that artists won't work for free. They'll happily pay Microsoft $400 for Windows Vista Ultimate but cry bloody murder about paying third party artists $4.95 for content.  My Xbox 360 cost quite a bit too but amazingly, the games aren't free. Those "greedy" game companies! 

Here's some of the comments on Blissful Sunset:

"It's absolutely ridiculous that they're charging for this-- it's just wrong. But for people who own Vista Ultimate, just wait, I guarantee you that this will come w/ the final Dreamscene when it's released. "

According to this user, it's morally wrong for artists to be paid for their work.  He's quite incorrect about Blissful Sunset coming with the final.

Another user wrote this:

"The implication (with MS showing it at official events) is that this development is work that was part of your contract with MS and therefore has already been subsidized and is in fact being paid for by all of us by our shelling out extra bucks for Ultimate edition."

This falls under the "no good deed goes unpunished" category.  Microsoft was looking for high quality content to show off during their demos but didn't want to give away some of the stuff that will be coming in the final release so they asked us if they could show the extra content we made. We agreed to let them. After all, it's pretty cool to see your work up on stage. But this person (and others) have tried to argue that we should simply give away all the animated wallpaper for free that we've made because we made the ones that come with it.  How does that make sense?

Over at Valve's Steam website, a user posted "Stardock sux" and writes:

"This is just unbelievable. Stardock is now charging us for what is supposed to be a FREE Vista Ultimate Extra"

This line of thinking is equivalent to saying that someone who bought say Half-Life 2 via Steam is somehow entitled to HL2: Episode 0 and HL2: Episode 1 and so forth. After all, they paid for Half-Life, why should they have to pay for additional content?  In fact, that's been one of the trends in the "outrage" group. Sure, there's 18 dreams that are free. But they shouldn't have to pay for anything because they bought Windows Vista Ultimate. I just totally can't grasp that mindset.  In what universe does someone buying a version of Windows entitle them to free software and content created by third parties?  Heck, my cell phone tries to get me to pay money for additional ring tones!

So here's what's going to happen -- one of these 2 things are going to occur:

Possibility #1: Users decide animated wallpaper is worthless.  In that case, Stardock Design won't be creating any more for consumers. Remember, Stardock Design currently has a 6 to 1 ratio in free to premium content.  At that point, consumers would just have to hope that individual artists  --who understand that there's no chance they'll ever be able to even make some extra side income from their efforts-- will take the time to create spectacular animated wallpapers that loop perfectly and are encoded in high quality at high-definition. Maybe that would happen but I wouldn't count on it.

In addition, since the bandwidth bill would still exist, users would have to buy WinCustomize subscriptions to download after awhile.  So the "free beer" crowd would have to find their content elsewhere. But don't count on these being available on most sites. At 50+ megabytes a pop, it's a lot of bandwidth. Someone has to pay for it.

And of course, that would mean the software would have to start charging for extra features. Want to pay 3D dynamic content? The user would have to get the "Pro" version.  The point being, the costs of producing, supporting, and developing this stuff has to come from somewhere. Personally, I think a system which nearly everything is free but a handful of premium content isn't free is a pretty good arrangement for everyone.

Possibility #2: Enough users decide that there's value to animated wallpaper. If something comes along that is of exceptional quality happens to ask for a few bucks, then it's worth buying.  In that event, what would happen is that it would attract more and more talented people who would submit lots of free ones in the hope of eventually being able to occasionally release premium ones to help recoup their time and costs. It's worth mentioning one more time - Stardock Design's free to non-free ratio so far is 6 to 1. If other studios and independent artists of great skill start to do the same, that sounds like a win-win.

So far, the results have been good. In the first 4 hours of "Blissful Sunset" we sold over 200 copies of it. Whether that trend continues remains to be seen. There's always a big bump at the beginning. The typical WindowBlinds Master skin has an initial bump and then eventually trends to around 5 per day after awhile.  But even 5 per day, put over time, is worth it.  The author's share of that ends up being around $3,500 per year per skin (not counting the initial bump) -- enough to buy a new computer.  But skins are different because it's an established thing.  Animated wallpapers are brand-new. How things progress with animated wallpaper remains to be seen.

 

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Shadow Lord
Reply #121 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:25 AM
Whoever is doing that logo and all the extra work is a fool and in desperate need of work. Brand identity isn't just something you get for a few bucks. I've been in graphic design for 6 years working at a printing house and now an advertising agency, so I've seen the amount of time that goes into creating stuff like that. If you think $500 is a fair value, I think you're not in touch with reality. That's $20 an hour for 25 hours of work. I'll be surprised if you can get graphic designers to work for you for less than $60 an hour. Double that up and we're getting there.


I know a couple of Art Center graduates (the one in Pasadena) working for big design/advertising corps in NY. If you have STEADY/Full Time jobs willing to pay $120/hr please let me know I will get them to you ASAP as they are making a 1/4 - 1/3 of that right now plus payin NY living costs.

And I agree brand identity is important and depends on your brand: if your Brnad is AT&T, Kraft, IBM, etc. you will surely pay more than $500, work with a team of designers with years of experience and demand impressive work. But when you are designing brand identity for a local firm I don't think we need a team of designers who total more than our whole office.
Jafo
Reply #122 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:26 AM

Where in reality, it is stardock that is cheating out both the artistic folk and the consumer. That is the problem. Period.

How?

RockChok
Reply #123 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:36 AM
Here are my thoughts.

I thought skinners and the community loved making art because its what they enjoy. It's coming off as if this is their livelihood. They are only doing this to make money or they want to be compensated for their time. I spend many hours working with kids but I don't expect the parents to pay me. But if it were my livelihood then I would expect it. Actually I give away a lot of my time doing things I'm good at and don't get paid for it. I'm a looser I should find out how much I'm losing and start charging . Whatever happened to shareware? There are a ton of people spending hours of time writing code and giving it away or asking for a donation.

Like I said earlier I think $5 is too much for one wallpaper that is hidden about 90% of the time. Why is there so much content here? People get tired of what they have. I know that there are 6 others to choose from that are free, but what about a year from now? I much would prefer a subscription service like Stardock does with OD, all the free updates for a year. Premium content doesn't have a preview, trial, or anything. Just purchase it and hope it’s what you thought it would be.

To summarize I'm just a little turned off by the attitude we shall get paid. Yah, yah, I know we live in a capitalist society. What do you enjoy at the end of the day helping others or getting paid? I need to eat and feed my family but I enjoy helping others with no strings attached. I know I'm a sucker. I really don't mind paying for high quality stuff I just don't like the business model setup here that's all.
KarmaGirl
Reply #124 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:37 AM

I think $500-$750 would be a fair value for a skin to a whole suite of skins...

Hehe...Well, I can say you are wrong.

A suite of skins for $750?  Where can I get some???????

I work with contracting artists all the time (I'm the VP of Stardock Design).  I can assure you that a custom skin is worth more than $500. 

Artists should get paid fairly for their work.  It's just that simple.

The artists *do* make free content.  But, if they sit down and make something that they perfect so that they can sell it, why shouldn't they get paid?  Is time valueless?

Shadow Lord
Reply #125 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:38 AM
Artists: They take a profit as well as costs from each sale.
Consumer: By providing the good/better content as premium (it might not be much right now, but eventually all the good skinners will become masters so the only thing available for free will be the repetetive junk which fills most of the DBs) they devalue the consumers purchase. What is the point of buying WB/IP/or anything else if then to take advanatage of it you have to pay for the skins? If I buy WB I expect to be able to get premium content on a regular basis for free. After all, if there is no good skin to use on WB why buy it in the first palce?

But again I am not as pissed off about the above then the holier then thou atitude that is shown by the company. If the company just wanted to make money I would say o.k. but they act like as if they are some poor souls who are loosing money so that we can all be happy at their expense...
KarmaGirl
Reply #126 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:48 AM

If the company just wanted to make money I would say o.k. but they act like as if they are some poor souls who are loosing money so that we can all be happy at their expense...

What???

We sell things that we produce to be sold.  We also give away things.  All we have been saying is that not everything will be free, and that skinners who make exceptional content and want to sell it should be able to.

Why can only Master's submit content (which is moderated) to be sold?  Because they have to provide a lot of quality content for free before they can be a Master.  So, in theory, by allowing Master's to sell their products, you create more quality content from artists aspiring to become a Master.  I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

Jafo
Reply #127 Friday, February 23, 2007 8:59 AM

Artists: They take a profit as well as costs from each sale.
Consumer: By providing the good/better content as premium (it might not be much right now, but eventually all the good skinners will become masters so the only thing available for free will be the repetetive junk which fills most of the DBs)

I'm sorry....and you're claiming a holier-than-thou attitude is coming from where?

Artists....I don't understand that one.  Wincustomize covers distribution/exposure costs.....the artists provide the content.  A centralized outlet generates the traffic/popularity/fame...and perhaps fortune for the artist.

A single skinner/artist could not foot the bill personally for the amount of traffic Wincustomize.com receives on his own personal site and thus gain the same exposure, so he's definitely not being cheated.

Consumer: hopefully OTHER consumers won't degrade/insult the works of any/every skinner who has not [as yet] made it to 'Master' status. 

Shadow Lord
Reply #128 Friday, February 23, 2007 9:06 AM
All we have been saying is that not everything will be free, and that skinners who make exceptional content and want to sell it should be able to.


I quote the original post:

"So far, Stardock Design has released 6 free .Dreams and 1 premium .Dream. On top of that, Stardock has released DeskScapes as freeware and DreamMaker as freeware. And of course, we host the Dreams here on WiniCustomize which, on their own, used over 2 TERRABYTES of bandwidth. So from our vantage point, Stardock's been "the good guy". Providing lots of free stuff, lots of free software and providing a free site to get it on. "

You do all of this stuff because it directly benefits Stardock. You bring in more potential customers (people come looking for dreamscene see WB and some buy it). The site exists so taht you can sell more WB and IP and whatever else copies. As I said in my very first post if I could not get tons of skins to use on WB easily and freely there would be no value in buying WB.

So stop bitching and moaning about how the site costs money (yes advertising will cost you) and I realy don't care how much it cost you (thats why I pay for ODNT) and for gods sake stop calling yourselves the good guys. You are a corporation and in no way are you interested in the consumer just making a buck (which is a ok by me but don't take the noble road around the issue...)
Zoomba
Reply #129 Friday, February 23, 2007 9:08 AM
Karma is in a much better position than you, Shadow Lord, to know the value of a skin, suite, gadget etc.  Any thing you claim as to value and price of such work is a huge assumption.  Karma has actual numbers on this.  In an argument over the actual value of the artistic work and technical talent, she wins because she actually knows what she's talking about.

So stop bitching and moaning about how the site costs money (yes advertising will cost you) and I realy don't care how much it cost you (thats why I pay for ODNT) and for gods sake stop calling yourselves the good guys. You are a corporation and in no way are you interested in the consumer just making a buck (which is a ok by me but don't take the noble road around the issue...)

That's a pretty big assumption right there.  You obviously don't know what motivates us.

You complain about people making assumptions about you, but you make some pretty hefty assumptions yourself.
KarmaGirl
Reply #130 Friday, February 23, 2007 9:25 AM

for gods sake stop calling yourselves the good guys. You are a corporation and in no way are you interested in the consumer just making a buck (which is a ok by me but don't take the noble road around the issue...)

Hmmm...you obviously have no idea what WinCustomize would be like if we really were the way you claim.

I have been with Stardock for over 11 years, and I have sat in many meetings discussing how we can help the community (the first one being when skinz.org went down and the community didn't have a "home" to speak of).

We used to have skins on Stardock.com that supported the products, but it didn't support the community.  WinCustomize is for the community. 

We do *not* do everything with a profit motive behind it.  If we did, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

Bichur
Reply #131 Friday, February 23, 2007 9:57 AM
You do all of this stuff because it directly benefits Stardock.


The same reason the place you work has you take those free cases. Without those y'all probably don't get any govt money such as medicare claims.

Artists: They take a profit as well as costs from each sale.

and hospitals don't?

Show me one hospital that would only charge me their actual cost of medicine, supplies and the staff's actual time spent with me. please.

Trust me I wish I could turn all these people away at door and only take patients with cash in hand but ethically and legally I can not. And trust me it isn't because I need the "Free Work" or the experience, or to get their name on my pt. list (yes your highness I operated on Bob, the homeless guy under the overpass, why don't you see him as a reference.)


So you obviously didn't choose your profession for altruistic reasons.
Since you do what you do for the money, then everyone else must therefore being doing the same. Ask your psychiatric staff to explain that if needed.

Does this site help SD? Sure.
Is it absolutely necessary. I doubt it. You can find skins for these apps at quite a few sites.
Are they taking the high road? Maybe. But then again, if they were a hospital, I have to say they're probably closer the being a "St Judes" type of organization than where you work.

The_Llama
Reply #132 Friday, February 23, 2007 10:19 AM
For the HL2 analogy, I think Frogboy is a little off. When you pay for HL2 via steam, you expect multiplayer, CS:S, etc to be free if you shell out for the game... and they are. Those are add ons to the program that took time and money and artistic talent that are simply given away. HL2 Ep 1 is different in that it is considered a different game.

To the people saying that the majority of art is free, I'm curious as to how you mean? If you mean it's free to go into a museum to look at, then technically everything here is free since you can view it via your computer. If you mean it's free to put on your desktop, well yes, anything that sits outside of copyright laws (renaissance, impressionist, etc) are all free. But anything created recently, or that still holds a valid copyright must be paid for unless the artist says it's ok for you to own or use for free.

Lastly, those saying that if you can afford Vista Ultimate, you can afford $5... That's a very immature approach to money and the marketplace not to mention it's completely not the point. If MS is selling Dreams as a Vista feature, and people think that this is the place to come for premium MS Dreams, then they'd have a right to be upset for being charged money. Plus it's short sighted to talk about "only $5" Future premium skins will cost the same. Download 10 and it's now "only $50."
My original gripe was exactly that. I wanted the thing that came with my pricey OS for free. Now I see that SD is completely separate and I can only "wish" all content were free. Personally I'll do without.
But really, if you had enough money to buy a BMW and found out that it didn't come with a radio, I'd like to see your reaction when the sales person said something like "if you can afford a BMW you can afford a radio." It took someone time and effort and parts to construct the radio, but since you plunked down a ton of cash for the car, you expect a nice radio for free. It's the way of business.

Again, my only gripe is the seemingbait and switch. In the end, there's really nothing to complain about except that MS hasn't put out great content yet and that there's nothing out yet that really makes you go oooh and aaah. Well, plasma is really cool.
Bichur
Reply #133 Friday, February 23, 2007 10:43 AM
if you had enough money to buy a BMW and found out that it didn't come with a radio,


Check the full sticker - if it comes with a radio, they charged you for - hell, they charge you for cleaning it up and getting it ready (dealer prep) - yet we expect it to be clean and ready to go when it buy it.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #134 Friday, February 23, 2007 11:54 AM
All this coming from someone who charges you $20.00 for a band aid.
Shadow Lord
Reply #135 Friday, February 23, 2007 12:08 PM
The same reason the place you work has you take those free cases. Without those y'all probably don't get any govt money such as medicare claims.


No, we take free cases because we have to (legally) and because it is the ethical thing to do. They are free because we don't get paid by anybody including medicair/medical/etc...

Show me one hospital that would only charge me their actual cost of medicine, supplies and the staff's actual time spent with me. please.


Oh, just about any hospital. That is why it is called a NON-Profit organization. You pay as much as you do because 1. other for profit corporations charge us that much for equipment, suuplies, meds, and 2. you liek to live and be healthy. If you feel at anytime you are being charged too much feel free to stop by your nearest alley for some quicky surgery.

Since you do what you do for the money, then everyone else must therefore being doing the same. Ask your psychiatric staff to explain that if needed.


No duh! As much as I like to train for 12 years under super gruelling conditions, working for free for 8 of them and practically free for another 4, then working for 60-70 hour weeks on a regular basis away from my family and charge you nothing so that you can have free health catre I can't. See me and my family have this bad habit... It is called eating.

I believe that most of the human populace is afflicted with this disgusting habit. So yeah, I believe most people who work do it to make a living. Get over it most doctors are not in it because we want to cure the sick. We are need it because we enjoy it and it makes money! I have no problems with that. I don't try to hide behind a shield of oh I am noble, see I save lives... The moment they stop paying me you bet your ass I'll be moving to a different line of work...
Emily
Reply #136 Friday, February 23, 2007 12:24 PM
It's always interesting watching parasites rationalize their leeching.

Not only does the parasite class not want to give anything back from which they take, but they take on a holier-than-thou attitude in arguing that nobody else should give anything back.

Then there's the dumb people who think that other people are enslaved to Microsoft. Anybody with master access can create a master skin. That Bliss wallpaper could have been submitted by Treetog or Essorant or Mormegil. Are they indentured to Microsoft too?
NightTrainthedark
Reply #137 Friday, February 23, 2007 12:26 PM
No, we take free cases because we have to (legally) and because it is the ethical thing to do


Free emergency care. If your not dying, no service.   

John Hamp
Reply #138 Friday, February 23, 2007 12:34 PM
For the HL2 analogy, I think Frogboy is a little off. When you pay for HL2 via steam, you expect multiplayer, CS:S, etc to be free if you shell out for the game... and they are. Those are add ons to the program that took time and money and artistic talent that are simply given away. HL2 Ep 1 is different in that it is considered a different game.



But an animated wallpaper created by an entirely different entity isn't considered a seperate thing from Windows DreamScene?

Again, my only gripe is the seemingbait and switch. In the end, there's really nothing to complain about except that MS hasn't put out great content yet and that there's nothing out yet that really makes you go oooh and aaah. Well, plasma is really cool.


What bait and switch? Even I saw the dream site had a very very clear place for premium content. WinCustomize has been talking about master skins for months.

If people want the selection of animated wallpapers limited only to what can be created by someone in their spare time then by all means, scream and shout against "premium" content. But for those of us who want to have a wider selection, we wish the folks ranting against it would shut the hell up.

Only a total baffoon or someone who has never done any video editing would be so ignorant to how long it must take to do this. I haven't made an animated wallpaper but I have edited video before and it's a time eating tedious task and that's with my home video.

I can't imagine the frustration in trying to get high definition video to loop just right and encode without artifacts or whatever only to have a bunch of whiney jerks telling me that I shouldn't even consider putting in the extra time to make a really good one because a month's worth of weekends aren't worth 5 bucks to them. Screw that.

Since I have neither the time or inclination to spend a month's of weekends trying to make a high quality animated wallpaper, I say kudos to those who do and kudos to those who can make money on it. I hope the artists are able to make lots of money so that they can justify the time to keep making these cool things.
Bichur
Reply #139 Friday, February 23, 2007 12:43 PM
No, we take free cases because we have to (legally) and because it is the ethical thing to do


interesting 'because we have to' is your 1st reason

Oh, just about any hospital.


you're telling me that just about any hospital will only charge me exactly what they pay - so then, hospitals are actually paying $5 and up for aspirin? that they don't try to recoup unpaid costs?

bullshit
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #140 Friday, February 23, 2007 5:26 PM
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.


That was my exact thought Craig...and the rest was pretty good too.  

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