Are ratings by subscribers applying ?
Wednesday, January 3, 2007 by Fairyy~ | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
What I'm noticing is that a lot of different galleries the ratings on various items remain what they were given when uploaded from moderation. Its like the subscribers ratings are nulled out and can't over ride a moderators rating at all. Even in screen shots I've noticed that my rating doesn't change anything when it always did before.
For example:
WWW Link
This wall has 1 star. There is nothing wrong with this wall. It may not be a Masterpiece but it certainly merits more than a 1 star rating.
2 subscribers gave this wall 5 stars and yet it remains on 1 star. I cant see how this is possible if ratings are being applied.
This is only one example...Ive seen quite a few items like this. Ratings aren't changing from the initial rating even though some items have 10 + comments ( all good )
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Reply #42 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 8:39 PM
| If something is rated a 2 star and you feel it should be a 3 star, you give it a 3. You don't give it a 5 because it will help raise the average up to a 3 faster. |
I'm sorry Zoomba but I disagree with your statement entirely. You seem to be implying you can insist on telling people how they may vote and what reasons they may use for determining their vote. It is their vote. They may vote however many stars they want and for whatever reasoning they wish to apply to determine their vote.
| If I 'really like something'...I don't give it a '10'....to get that it has to actually be good. |
Jafo you seem to be implying that whatever your tastes are in "good" is the correct standard for good. What do you mean by really good? What others will also rate as really good, popular majority and all? My own view is you don't like rating's inflation and wish to use your vote in that manner. That's certainly your choice to do with your vote. I've also noticed my vote doesn't count at all and hasn't in the past 2 weeks or so. It used to, or that is certainly how it appears to me. The other use of this rating system, in my opinion, although noone has stated this, is to discourage floods of poor quality material and the same with moderation. The only thing I'm still willing to upload is Screen Shots. So far, I can see no reason to change my mind in that. I have made some pretty good material of my own lately, but I'm completely unable to convince myself that it won't be turned into a needlessly painful process to try and share it here. You may have screen shots only for now.
Reply #43 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 9:06 PM
| I'm sorry Zoomba but I disagree with your statement entirely. You seem to be implying you can insist on telling people how they may vote and what reasons they may use for determining their vote. It is their vote. They may vote however many stars they want and for whatever reasoning they wish to apply to determine their vote. |
I agree. And it concerns me this way. I know that the mods make an effort to keep on eye out for those that may slam a skin and knock it down more than 1 point/star. Sometimes, aan artist may have to bring it to their attention. Only once, that I brought it to their attention did it actually turn out to be something that merited a correction. That's fine. I'm just happy they listen to me 'bitch' and take the time to look. I appreciate it.
What concerns me with Zoomba's statement is that I get the impression it goes both ways. Correct me if I am wrong, but is it being implied that if the mods see something going up what they may think is too high, they will lower the rating themselves back to where they feel is appropriate?
If this is so, I suppose it's only fair that it 'does' go both ways..but then I have to wonder what the point of having the 'community' rate anything at all is all about. If it's more a less a fixed rating, and it's been predetermined that it can go 1 or 2 points either way (or 3 or 4 or whatever) before a mod intervenes and brings it back to what they think it should be, what good are our votes.
I'm probably cutting my own nose off with this, since any changes would have to go both ways.
Realizing that it is difficult to change how it is all done, I still would have to offer, perhaps letting the uploader decide if they want the ratings on, or just community rated, or mod rated would be one option. But that's not possible, I know.
I would still have to go with making it work so that you could not rate it unless you left comment. I think that would limit the drive-by's in both directions. I also believe it would make a lot of people happy (though you can't please everyone, but I think this would please more than less) and also make the mods job of having to keep an eye on the ratings a little easier. IMHO.
Reply #44 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 9:19 PM
| Jafo you seem to be implying that whatever your tastes are in "good" is the correct standard for good. What do you mean by really good? What others will also rate as really good, popular majority and all? My own view is you don't like rating's inflation and wish to use your vote in that manner. That's certainly your choice to do with your vote. |
No...I've been modding and rating walls here longer than most...and actually tend to rate along the lines of how I can reasonably expect 'most' will consider the walls' worth. I see the ratings applied, not just as an average but as each individual's rating including when and in which order they are applied. It gives an insight far more clearly as to what 'consensus' might be than even what the averaged outcome actually shows.
Example.
When people make THEIR OWN determination to place a '10' on, eg, the linked wall....are they actually thus stating "wow this is the best wall possible, hence its rating" ...no matter what arbitrary criteria THEY choose as determining 'best'. What if a BETTER one comes along, say, same author, same subject, but maybe greater execution standard [or 50 squillion resolutions to suit everyone]...is that now 'MORE BEST'? Does the rating then go 'Spinal Tap' and play on ELEVEN?
We've heard the argument 'it's my vote, I'll use [abuse] it how I see fit' before....but would it please one and all in the Bootskin fraternity to know that there is one uploader who bought around 6 'subscriptions-in-different-nicks' just so these aliases could all post '10' on his uploads? They did exactly NOTHING anywhere else...on anyone else's work.
Sure, he paid for the 'right' [read 'privilege'], but it's an abuse of the system....and was stopped.
If people cannot take this 'right' to vote sensibly and fairly then they can just as easily lose that right. [It's definitely not 'inalienable']. Adults are supposed to act adult. More 'senior'/elevated-level members are supposed to lead by example.
Re my tastes of 'good' vs 'very good'....it's really an issue of relativity. No-one should be getting '10's just because they are a mate, or prior stuff was/is good. Reputation does not make good work....good work makes reputation. The determination of 'good' can, if you must, be equated with popularity, but that must be tempered by on-going comparatives and experience....eg Britney is a 'popular' female singer, whereas Joplin would be more equated with 'good'...
My opinion is that if a person cannot honestly say their history of rating has neither been favourist nor inflated [either direction] then they may as well just stop rating at all....
Reply #45 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 9:28 PM
| If this is so, I suppose it's only fair that it 'does' go both ways..but then I have to wonder what the point of having the 'community' rate anything at all is all about. If it's more a less a fixed rating, |
Po....it's EXTREMELY rare....probably twice, maybe thrice.....ever.
Drive-bys have been an issue with only around 3 people that I can recall....maybe 4.....that have come to attention and prompted reaction.
Nearly all emails [to me] regarding ratings issues are a knee-jerk concern/reaction to what appears a rapid fluctuation and which often turns out to be various servers getting out of sync and the numbers are all over the place until someone kicks another one back into line and the wobbles are over.
There WAS a little while in the past where my OWN rating ability went south [2K7 growing pains] which led to some quite odd happenings when I modded/approved things....but bug-squashers came to the rescue...
Reply #46 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:18 PM
A skin has a 7, a user thinks it's really a 5. They give it a 1, not because they feel it's necessarily a 1, but because they know that will help bring the average closer to the final 5 they feel the work deserves.
In that case, people get bent out of shape.
If you're OK with gaming the numbers to get a higher score, you're condoning the same method to drop a score.
To the concern that mods might be knocking skins down by removing those artificially high scores much like we do artificially low ones on the rare occassions we find someone is griefing another user. It doesn't happen. In general, we don't watch the relative motion of ratings on any individual skin, there are just too many. Most of the time, we don't look at a skins overall ratings unless a problem has been brought to our attention.
As Jafo said, it's actually very very rare for any mod to alter a rating given by a user. There has to be heavy evidence that the rating is malicious or very obvious fraud (i.e. an account that was created one day, and on the same day it gave an individual artist 10s on ALL their work... and then never logged in again. Not a real case, but a potential extreme).
Reply #47 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:23 PM
| When people make THEIR OWN determination to place a '10' on, eg, the linked wall....are they actually thus stating "wow this is the best wall possible, hence its rating" ...no matter what arbitrary criteria THEY choose as determining 'best'. What if a BETTER one comes along, say, same author, same subject, but maybe greater execution standard [or 50 squillion resolutions to suit everyone]...is that now 'MORE BEST'? Does the rating then go 'Spinal Tap' and play on ELEVEN? |
What difference does it make what they are thinking when voting is supposed to be one of the perqs for subscribing? It is no wonder voting secrecy became the standard when voting for elected officials. It was the only way to curb coercion. My money for subscribing was my money until I gave it to WinCustomize when it became WinCutomize's money. I'm not demanding an accounting of how its spent or specifying any personal ethics on what may or may not be done with it. Now it seems you want to maintain control of how I vote. Futhermore, I never said it's my vote I'll abuse it if I want. I said I can think and reason for myself. I will apply my own reasoning to my own vote just as you do. Your last two questions are simply a recasting of concern for ratings inflation.
"When people make THEIR OWN determination" Apparently you are implying that all members votes are the property of you and WinCustomize. That people have no capacity to determine for themselves, or when they do, they are only capable of abuse of the system. That's pretty horrible of you Jafo. Think about it. You are trying to argue I have no right to vote plain and simple unless I follow the same voting ethic you have. Let's hear it for the one party system. Diversity is not tolerated.
Reply #48 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:34 PM
Reply #49 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:43 PM
| Fair is fair. |
That's what I meant about it going both ways. There really is no way around it. Whatever you change to fix one side, would have to apply to the other.
That's why, I'll say again, (lol),
| I would still have to go with making it work so that you could not rate it unless you left comment. I think that would limit the drive-by's in both directions. I also believe it would make a lot of people happy (though you can't please everyone, but I think this would please more than less) and also make the mods job of having to keep an eye on the ratings a little easier. IMHO. |
I really think this is worth trying.
Reply #50 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:44 PM
| That's pretty horrible of you Jafo. Think about it. You are trying to argue I have no right to vote plain and simple unless I follow the same voting ethic you have. Let's hear it for the one party system. Diversity is not tolerated. |
You are really and profoundly missing the point.
Each work should be considered on its own merit...and if you think it is effin-damn good...give it a '10'...that's entirely fine....but do NOT try to put a 20 on it because it currently is only 6 and you think everyone's AVERAGE MUST EQUAL YOUR TOTAL '10'.
If it is OK...show so by giving it an OK vote...YOUR OK vote....not push it to stupid levels so the average becomes what you think its average should be...in YOUR own opinion.
THAT IS NOT THE INTENT of the system.
Some clearly seem to think that rather than vote FOR the Democrats simply shoot the Republicans and they'll be in by default....
Do you see the distinction?
Reply #52 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:47 PM
| I really think this is worth trying. |
Reply #53 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:48 PM
| If you don't think its not fair to give a person 5 stars because you believe its rated to low at 2 stars, then quit pissing and moaning when someone gives you 1 star because he feels that its rated to high at 5 stars. Fair is fair. |
I didn't.
Reply #54 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:50 PM
Po, the visible/listed ratings beside your name...if public would deter honest opinion...if at odds with 'expectations', adding fuel to flame and dissatisfaction. I doubt it would ultimately benefit as it would lead to more 'nice = 10' comments and/or just no 'rating applied if wanted to be low'....
Reply #55 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:53 PM
Reply #56 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 11:01 PM
1. Suffeciently large numbers of people vote on a given skin
2. Those people cast their honest opinion of the work as their vote
Most works don't receive a very high number of votes overall, so one extreme vote wrecks the curve.
The way the ratings system is setup, is to protect artists from having a few low ratings ruin the overall score of the work. The consequence of this is that it is also takes more people to RAISE the score.
Reply #57 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 11:28 PM
| Jafo:fairyy ... I'm betting the problem you are seeing is a lag between you rating it and the site servers/cache/etc catching up and displaying the applied new rating input. |
Thats what I thought- then I tried logging in/out and it was the same rating after I did that in 99% of the cases.
Like I said, the site has been a bit off lately. Its running sluggish and downloads are just not up there even if have a 5 star wall. Maybe its just the time of year and things are a bit slow and no one is taking the time to rate.
I do have to agree with 'Po - sometimes I feel that its all pointless to even spend the time to download and look over something and rate it if its all pre-ordained to never be more than 3 stars from the start.
The bottom line is - you basically have the same people that bother to rate and the rest are just here to d/load and be on their merry way. Not much you can do about it.
Reply #58 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 11:28 PM
Voting aka submitting a rating on a skin was/is and always has been an opportunity for an individual to cast an opinion of what a skin's 'quality' is.
1. Jafo thinks it is good...and votes 4 stars.
Voting has never been a free-for-all interpretation of how to alter a skin's overall average, be it by inflated opinion [exaggeration] or flooding through multiple accounts.
2.Jafo thinks it is good...but it only has a current average of 3...and votes 5 stars so the average will become maybe '4'.
3. Worse still...Jafo sees a '3'...thinks it should be '4' and creates 10 accounts and applies a '5' 10 times.
'1' is how and what voting/opinion is intended to mean.
As mentioned earlier...people are SUPPOSED to be doing it correctly. Anything less is a disservice to yourself and your fellow Wincustomize.com Users and Skinners....
Reply #59 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 11:34 PM
Reply #60 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 11:45 PM
| As mentioned earlier...people are SUPPOSED to be doing it correctly. Anything less is a disservice to yourself and your fellow Wincustomize.com Users and Skinners.. |
That is one of the things I noticed that isn't happening anymore. I can remember a time if a something had a rating of 2.5 I could give it 3 stars and it actually changed the rating - or maybe at times it was 4 stars. But, lately it seemed even 5 stars did nothing at all. Which was my whole point of this thread. I figured if there was a bug not long ago that was messing up the Mods rating then it could be working visa versa.
Maybe just moderators should do the ratings...most dont bother anyway and it sure would solve the issue.
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Reply #41 Wednesday, January 3, 2007 7:29 PM
I find it funny how ones posse all rate ones work a 10 and no one bitches but when it starts getting lower ratings from people outside of the gang the person cries that my ratings have tanked. Oh well. Something to think about.
I don't comment on all the things I rate, only the good ones. I guess I could start if that would make people feel better. Something like, I don't like this. Or I hate this or its OK. I think that goes along with the star rating.