How Stardock failed the skinning community in 2006

A look back at what we didn't do and what we need to do

Friday, December 22, 2006 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News

WinCustomize.com is a website owned by Stardock. It was founded back in 2001 when the dot-com collapse took out most of the skin sites.  Stardock wanted to ensure that there was a stable home for people who wanted to create cool stuff to enhanced their Windows experience.

While 2006 was Stardock's best year from a traditional success point of view (doubled in size, more than doubled in revenue, helped produce stuff for Microsoft on Windows Vista, building partnerships with OEMs, and the game's division made one of the top PC games of last year), I believe Stardock failed the skinning community. It failed it utterly.

This is going to be long but I will try to identify the areas where Stardock blew it and what I think it needs to "make good".

The Failures

  • Awful documentation
  • Lack of support for skinners
  • Lack of community support
  • Lack of leadership

Awful Documentation

As bad as the documentation for making cool stuff for Stardock's apps appears, it's actually far far worse. And if you think it's really really bad, trust me, it's even worse than that.  It's not that we don't try. The problem is usually the only people who are good enough to make the documentation are the actual development teams who tend not to be very good at writing documentation. Ever looked at the actual text inside a WindowBlinds .UIS file?

Part of the problem stems from what Stardock really is as compared to "normal" companies.  We're a bunch of software developers.  Historically, almost pure coders.  Until 2002, Stardock had one artist in the entire company and he was assigned to do our games. In 2003, we brought in a second artist (also to work on games). That's insane.  But it didn't seem so.  Not to us anyway.

We've always been a tech company. We created technology for the sake of creating technology.  The fancy term for that these days are "thought leaders". That is, we think of stuff before other and try to crank it out. Those familiar with the misadventures of "TextBanners.net" may recall that we came up with text ads first. Yay. Neat technology but of course, Google owns that.  We came up with full GUI skinning. First on OS/2 back in the early 90s and then on Windows. And we even had user-created mini applications created via JavaScript back in 2000 (DesktopX).  But so what?

Without good documentation, tutorials, step by step guides, what is the point?  With WindowBlinds, we got lucky. So compelling was that program that users were willing to figure out the arcane format.  How arcane? This is from a WindowBlinds skin:

[Personality]
TextShiftNoIcon=-2
TextRightClipNoIcon=84
UsesTran=1
BUTTONCOUNT=26
TextAlignment=0
TextShift=-2
TextShiftVert=-3
TextRightClip=89
TextOnBottom=0
Menubar=YellowTab\YellowTabMainMenuBarImage.bmp
Top=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameTopUis2.bmp
Left=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameLeftUis2.bmp
Right=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameRightUis2.bmp
Bottom=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameBottomUis2.bmp
TopTopHeight=23
TopBotHeight=48
LeftTopHeight=37
LeftBotHeight=9
RightTopHeight=26
RightBotHeight=9
BottomTopHeight=2
BottomBotHeight=2

This isn't a joke. That's what the WindowBlinds "language" looks like underneath SkinStudio. My favorite is the BottomTopHeight line. But like I said, it was compelling enough that people were willing to reverse-engineer it to make cool stuff.

Our documentation elsewhere has been much more lacking. We put out documentation but it's pretty awful. Probably the best documentation we have is for DesktopX. And it's not anything I'd consider competitive in quality to Yahoo Widgets's 308 page developer manual.  In fact, compare the DesktopX page to the Yahoo Widgets page

The problem at Stardock is myopia. I'm not a politically correct type of guy as many of you know but I say without ego being involved that DesktopX is far far superior to Yahoo Widgets or any of the other platforms from a technological point of view. In capability (on Windows) is a complete superset and then some.  As technologists, we simply assumed that was enough. Build a better mousetrap, etc.  But people won't use the "Better" mousetrap if it requires a PhD. to manufacture.

Let me ask you this -- Where is a modern WindowBlinds tutorial? Let's say I want to create a WindowBlinds 5 skin. How do I do it? Where's the nice friendly example that walks me through it?  Heck, the user guide that's on WindowBlinds.net is awful and the only reason it's not worse is that I went and edited what was originally put up there (complete with Times Roman font and MS Word artifacts).

In the beginning, when Stardock was smaller and the community smaller, much of these problems could be masked because me or one of the other developers at Stardock could personally answer questions on a forum.  But as Stardock has grown and we've gotten a lot busier, these glaring holes in our documentation became critical.  The WindowBlinds skinning guide that is on the page is from 2002. I kid you not. FOUR YEARS AGO!  The only thing that saves WindowBlinds skinning remotely is that SkinStudio, while not an easy to use application, is pretty decent. But it's not enough and the learning curve has only gotten worse.

Lack of Support for Skinners

You'd think the terrible documentation situation would be enough to cover the lack of support for skinners. But no, it's worse than that. Even setting aside the documentation, lack of organized tutorials, lack of step-by-step guides, etc. there's the fact that Stardock should have someone who is dedicated to doing nothing else but helping people become skinners.

Think about it. Stardock benefits from people making skins and themes right? Shouldn't it have a dedicated [email protected] type email address? It doesn't. Why not? We should. Heck, we wouldn't even need a full-time person. Just someone to help point people to tutorials (that presumably would exist), answer questions, give advice, etc. 

Instead, we leave people to the tender mercies of the forums (which I'll get to next).

Stardock doesn't even put out hardly any good example content any more (that it doesn't charge for! ) for people to learn from.  Stardock released one ObjectBar theme into the ObjectBar 2 gallery.  When was the last time Stardock released some new DesktopX gadgets, themes, etc?  How about some new ObjectDock samples?  ObjectDock 1.5 supports .dockzips. Do you see any in the gallery? I don't. We released nothing that uses it.

 

Lack of Community Support

Being good in the community was something we used to be great at. Sure, there were always the perpetual "free beer" people who objected to our existence (i.e. people who didn't like the idea of paying for software but themselves didn't write any software or make skins or anything) but overall, we were much more interactive.

Now, on the plus side, the # of "Frogboy is evil" posts we get in various places has declined. But I think, as a community, we were better off with some of that when Stardock people were more interactive. And, more importantly, setting an example.

The WinCustomize forums largely disgust me. Sorry but it needs to be said. WinCustomize's forums wreak of elitism and intolerance. Why are the forums not as busy as a site that gets millions of visitor should be? Because people come on, ask a question, make a mild criticism and then get creamed by old guard people who wish "newbies" would go away. One of the reasons why we really got behind WinCustomize.com in a big way after it was launched was because we were so pissed off at some of the elitism we saw elsewhere (I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about).  But while many of us old guys have been busy coding new stuff, the forums have become an increasingly hostile place.

And when they're not hostile, they're sterile and impersonal. I'd as much hang out on the WC forums as I'd hang out on the forums for my TV manufacturer.  Only because of the wondrous loyalty of many good-hearted folks are our forums even remotely capable of being rehabilitated.

Moreover, Stardock should have a community manager. Could even be the same guy who's helping skinners. Someone who's helping out on other sites. WinCustomize isn't the only skin site. What about SkinBase? They deserve more support from Stardock than they get.  Or tons of newer customization community sites too that I'm not even hanging out on.

Again, in the old days, Stardock's lack of infrastructure was masked.  I would get an email from someone ([email protected]) and quickly answer it.  But now, I get thousands of email a day. Hundreds of which request a response. As a result, I don't even see much of the email I get.  Realistically, I should ask someone to look through my email every day and flag anything that needs urgent attention.

 

Lack of leadership

We should be better at setting an example for how things should be done.  Stardock people should be in the forums. Stardock people should be making skins and releasing them. Should be making tutorials. Should be writing documentation. Should be answering questions. Should be commenting on skins. Should be hosting IRC chats. Should be making video demos. And so on and so on.  But we're not.

And so things tend to go to whomever is the loudest or has the deepest pockets.  I mean do skinners really envision a gadget future in which they're mucking with DHTML and Javascript to create a fixed size gadget for the Windows Vista Sidebar? Does that sound cool?  But what's the alternative? Making a PNG file that's tied up with some Javascript for a different multi-billion dollar company?

I've seen people on-line refer to us as "Those wizards at Stardock will think of something cool..."  Which is a very high complement. But if we want to be the thought leaders then we better bloody get back to leading on stuff.

Because I don't know about you guys but if my "skinning" options are either making another glass skin for the OS, making a weather gadget/widget for whatever or sitting it out, then forget it.

What needs to be done

It's easy for me to sit here and rip Stardock a new one. It's my company after all. Talk is cheap. What is Stardock going to actually do about this? And by do I mean realistically. Because if you read through my litany of complaints, the "solution" seems obvious -- in a perfect world. But it's not a perfect world.  We live in a world where I can't even hire a decent QA (Quality Assurance) person. We get people in for interviews who haven't even been to our webpage (first rule of thumb when interviewing for a job -- know something about the product or service that you are interested in being involved with).

Here are the things I think Stardock must do in 2007:

  • Make is easier to create stuff for our software
  • Organize support for skinners
  • Get more involved in the community
  • Lead by example

Make it easier...

Updating documentation is an obvious thing that needs to be done.  But it needs to go beyond that.  Stardock needs to develop visually easy to understand tutorials that walk a user through how to create something.

It also needs to update its software (particularly SkinStudio) in such a way to make it easier to create skins.  More specifically, there should be beginner, intermediate, and advanced ways to create stuff both from a tools point of view and a tutorial/documentation point of view.

It should be consistent across the board. Everywhere on all Stardock's products there should be guides focused on beginners, intermediate, and advanced users.

Organize Support for Skinners

Stardock should create an off-shoot of the next WinCustomize.com (like skinners.wincustomize.com) that is dedicated purely to learning the art of skinning. Everything should show up there and it should be reasonably well organized.

Moreover, Stardock should have a person who is officially responsible for helping people get into this. Have a question on how to create an alpha blended title bar for WindowBlinds?  Need help creating an animated wallpaper (well, not yet but soon...), How do I make a new boot screen for Windows Vista? How do I make a docklet for ObjectDock? And so on.

Part of this also comes in the form of trying to support other people's standards.  For example, DesktopX 3.5 will export content to the Windows Sidebar. So people who don't think it particularly joyful to muck around with DHTML and Javascript can instead use a proven environment with updated documentation and tutorials to create new stuff.

But more to the point, someone at Stardock should always be on-hand to help out on this. It should be someone specific too. Not a "skinner support department" but literally someone who is part of the community that works at Stardock that you know and feel you can talk to individually.

Get more involved in the community

This is like the above example but it has more to do with non-skinners.  Stardock needs to be more involved on a day to day basis in the community. That means hanging out on forums.  I recognize that the days of me participating in some lengthy discussion on Neowin.net or deviantART or Customize.org are long gone. There's just not the time anymore.  But someone needs to be doing it. 

We're working on that already.  IslandDog is working on this already and I imagine you'll be seeing him in a lot of other areas as we develop this new strategy.

But there's going to be some pain on WinCustomize 2007.  We're going to bring down the hammer on elitism. Any user who comes across as a bully or "anti-newbie" won't be welcome.  WinCustomize.com's forums should be thought of as a lounge to hang out with friends. The forums will be modified to support a more "community" like atmosphere.

People email me and I just don't see the emails -- literally. One user on a blog said that "Stardock's success has gone to Brad's head".  My egomania aside, the reason I don't answer emails isn't that I don't care about folks anymore but rather a simple matter of logistics. Heck, I missed Microsoft's invitation to go to CES (luckily I found out via other channels).  I just don't see the emails. Most of my time is spent doing other things. I'm actually better known in the game industry these days than in the skinning world.

But it is still the company's responsibility to replace my presence with someone else's. Otherwise, Stardock might as well just be yet another Internet business out there to squeeze money from people. People who know us know that we're in this because it's fun to do.  But to a newcomer, if we don't behave any differently than any other "business" why should we expect to be seen as any different?

So we absolutely have to rectify that in a big way.

Lead by example

Picture this: The year is 2001. DesktopX objects are starting to become popular. WindowBlinds vs. msstyles have heated up. And the sky seems unlimited in terms of new cool stuff from not just Stardock but shareware and freeware people from around the world. Great eh?

But then the ghost of Christmas future shows up and tells you that by the end of 2006 that widgets have become various ways to skin clocks, weather readers and RSS feeds (there's nothing wrong with that but then a specialized app could/should have been made for those 3 things that is MUCH easier to create skins for and that skins could be shared). And Hoverdesk and Litestep were either dead or on life support and that the ObjectBar 2 gallery had one theme in it.  Who would have believed it?

Without leadership, you have inertia.

I wrote recently how the most damaging thing to skinning has been the length of time it took Microsoft to do Windows Vista.  This is true. That is, one can legitimately argue that the skinning community shouldn't expect Stardock to come up with all the new stuff. But on the other hand, if Stardock wants to be perceived as a "leader" in this growing trend, it needs to do stuff.

That means:

  1. Create state of the art content to give away to show what is possible.
  2. Show, in as many ways and places as possible, how that state of the art stuff was created
  3. Find new and cool things for people to do on their computers
  4. Create programs and tools (and make as many of them free as possible) to do those cool things.
  5. Present what you do with respect to others. Skinning should be fun. Skinning is fun.
  6. Interact with skinners and help them proactively.

To do these things, we are trying to build up the manpower to do this.  It has been slow going though.  The problems described in this article are things we've seen and been aware of. But solving them means bringing on talented people to help us. And that has been a real challenge. We want to hire people. But the # of people who can really do the job is amazingly small.

Conclusions

So there you have it. How Stardock failed the skinning community in 2006. I hope I do not have to write something similar next year.  The pieces are starting to come together now. But we have a lot of work ahead of ourselves. 

It mostly boils down to too much work for too few people. We've got projects going on with major PC OEMs, Microsoft, Take 2, and beyond which, for a company of around 50 people total is just immense. Especially when the ones who have traditionally "done" the stuff that made Stardock what it is today are now stretched between so many things.  But that's our problem and it is something we have to resolve.

I would appreciate any comments, suggestions, criticism you have to offer. There's a LOT to look forward to next year. And this year has been a great year. But it was definitely not a shining beacon for Stardock's support of the skinning community.  We'll do better.

First Previous Page 3 of 8 Next Last
Jafo
Reply #41 Friday, December 22, 2006 7:02 PM

A strong team of unified mods/supermods/admins can change a free-for-all into a productive community site... but it ain't easy, and it ain't without struggles. Mods who enforce rules are seen as tyrants who abuse their power, and are ridiculed for sucking up to "the man". Mods also can become victims of burnout when they have to shoulder too much (as in covering too much territory, bearing the brunt of the members' ire, and so forth).

Gosh....and you said you were new....

It's true that some have suffered 'burnout' and ceased/diminished involvement...but others still 'happily' work at it.  It's amazing [for me at least] to realise just how tolerant and patient admins/mods need to be to nOT be seen as tyrannical.

One of the issues with the Wincustomize community is the perception of 'elitism' within....though I've always imagined that is partly a result of the Citizen/Apprentice/Journeyman rankings ....which some may see as preferential treatment by those who do the 'promoting'.  For me, it's one of the pivotal things about the WC Community simply as an indicator for others to know who to seek for guidance both in skinning and general onsite behaviour.

Some on this thread have mentioned about wanting to upload works-in-progress to some specific location....well there's no reason they cannot be uploaded to their respective skin galleries...with the title 'WIP' or 'Work In Progress' in their description.  What HAS happened, however is unfinished works get flamed by people who should know better saying "how dare you upload unfinished crap", etc....yet, as with screenshots, galleries [in that history that people ignore/forget] were for skins to go out to the public AND for interactive assistance in construction/creation.  Instead we DO get 'elitism' from one person proclaiming another as 'inferior' because he/she failed to provide a progress bar graphic, or some such tripe.

There's really only two ways to re-invigorate the forum/community...through added interest in skinning [How-to's, etc would help there, definitely]...or through controversy and flame.  The latter isn't really an option, not for what purports to be a friendly community site.

Actually....that mention of a 'WIKI or FAQ' sounds great.  Imagine an online How-to that all skinners could edit/contribute to...as and when new 'tricks' were devised/discovered....it'd be more 'community' and less 'do-it-this-way-because-we-wrote-the-proggy.'

I expect 2007 to be a great time for Wincustomize.com.  The site will even have shiny new clothes... 2K7 really makes the 'current' site look tired and dare I say....'bland'.  The backroom 'admin' end actually has tools that work, so, considering the workload the Stardock crew was under at the latter end of 2006 the creation of the 2K7 site[s] is a tribute to all of them.  Frogboy and his coders have provided us the vehicle....now it's up to us ALL to steer it as a successful, supportive, and vibrant Community....

BigDogBigFeet
Reply #42 Friday, December 22, 2006 7:24 PM
Hi all and especially Frogboy. Well someone has to worry and identify where resources need to be applied to solve problems and it might as well be the owner.
From my stand point as one who is entering their second year with Stardock and WinCustomize, I summarize my first year as fun. The items of note with regard to areas needing work(as identified by the community) are:

1) Documentation
2) Tutorials
3) Library Organization
4) Forum friendliness

In my opinion the first two are the most important to solve for Stardock. For those who have the inclination and time to start skinning, the road needed to travel should be easy. Resources easily identified for skinners is one important key.

I am a consumer of themes, probably a member of the largest identifiable group of Object Desktop customers. My skills are sufficient to tweak things a bit that others have produced. As to library organization, my recommendation is to organize libraries by type of skin and by skinner. While we all have our own web pages that have our uploads in them, you currently have to do a search using a skinner's name to find an author's creations. A simple button appearing next to an item of interest would solve this. This button would appear for established skinners only and lead to other creations by the same author. And finally, with repect to library organization, what is happening is essentially what works well in one library doesn't work well in others. Window Blinds works well with a single category (a Blind theme), Object Dock doesn't. DX widgets are rapidly developing a similar problem. Themed widgets probably need a separate category. I certainly like the idea of having a themed weather widget and or calendar, a user who is looking for widget ideas though shouldn't have to wade through thirty(or more) themed widgets to find what they're searching for. So with that in mind, how to organize the libraries will take some more brainstorming and then some testing with the idea being lots of appeal to new consumers and skinners.

And lastly, forum friendliness, overall that has been an area that is and has been receiving attention. My goal has been one of wishing to treat others with as much respect as possible recognizing that all problems begin as misunderstandings. So, don't let the beginnings of misunderstandings develop into regrettable problems. Enough now from me. Merry Christmas all, I'm lookinf forward to the new year.
JeremyG
Reply #43 Friday, December 22, 2006 7:45 PM
I agree with almost all of this.

I knew things had gotten bad when ObjectBar 2 was FINALLY released and there's STILL no skins for it. However like the article says I do see that Stardock products are CONSISTANTLY better technically (in capabilities, stability and features) than anything they compete with.

I also browse by the forums once in a while and see very little of any interest. This has always been the case, but the lesser-known newsgroups were usually FULL of active conversation....it appears they are mostly dead as well.

I suppose there's trade offs with anything. If you work hard on product, documentation sufferes, and vice-versa. Stardock has signs of typical company growing pains, but it can all be worked through. So here's my advice/input:

1. Brad, get off your soap box! You often have good opinions, and are definately knowledgable. However in a growing company, generally the leader needs to be more 10,000 feet and less nitty-gritty. (You dont see Bill Gates chatting-it-up on news.microsoft.com) You're a great figure-head but your opinions and attitudes can inflame users at times. As the public figure head of a larger company, you need to be more neutral. (at least in the public eye) Let the users of the commuinty feel able to become the advocates (or detractors) of your products.

2. Don't make your political blogs part of the same persona as your WinCustomize/Stardock persona. It might seem petty, but some people will dislike your product just for your politics. (I learned this from my wife who REFUSES to talk about politics to anyone)

3. "Premium Forums" for subscribers? If you're talking about employed community support, then it should only be for WC or SD subscribers. Of course that could lead to even more elitism on the public ones? I dont know.

4. "Elitism" starts at the top. Don't want to rag on Brad for the whole post but it IS your post Brad I see a lot of elitism coming from your own posts. Maybe I insert some of that myself just by my overall opinion of him (see #2), but some of it is blatent, especially when commenting on other people's posts.

5. Good forum tagging/searching is one way to stop the "newbies" from asking the same questions, which is usually where elistism comes from. Of course at a certain point a forum post should be converted into a different form and automatically be available as part of a FAQ or Self-Help section, which is easily referenced/linked. (They should phsyically *look* different than forum posts as well)

6. Documentaton should be broken into bite-size section (even if that causes duplicate sections or overlap). As you put it, Yahoo has a 308-page development guide. Well that's certainly great, but not the way to win over a casual user....or even an advanced user who is uninitiated.


Hope that helps some....this didnt flow as nice as I had originally thought it out, but I kept getting interupted by dinner/family.
JeremyG
Reply #44 Friday, December 22, 2006 8:01 PM
Oh, and the SKINS themselves need to have tags....not categories!!! Update the library so I can find interesting things, not the "top 10" or "last 10". Definately more abstract than just searching by words and categories.
When I search for skins I want to see things like:

1. Singel view of all skins made with the same template/family.
2. Skins that are "dark" or follow a type of color scheme


And one last thing....ratings dont mean much when they're made by "idiots". In other words I need a little more merit to my voters opinions than just thinking that 20 teenagers thought it was "cool". Sometimes I might want an object rated high BY DEVELOPERS, or something like that. Perhaps the labels we use for our name like "Developer JeremyG" should have some bearing other than being just a pretty label. And they should have requirments.

So say in order to obtain "developer" status, I need to publish 5 original code-heavy skins/objects. In order to be an "artist" i need to submit original artwork. (Maybe even have multiple levels of each). Then a user could have more influence on a skin if they "know what they're talking about". A user could search for "items with good code", or "items with excellant original artwork", etc.

I'm not sure the best kind of system but the ideal thing would be for me to be able to do this kind of search:

Search =
Window Blinds Skins
For version 5 (full featured)
color mood of "dark"
Rated High Quality Code by Developers
Rated Artistic by Everyone
Quentin94
Reply #45 Friday, December 22, 2006 8:39 PM
Hello I am new in this community and French. (Not very good in English in more).
I come right data some ideas:

_ 1. Why not to make so that the people who wishes it can communicate between them by Message Personnal.
With the tools which go with like the possibility of blocking the undesirable people.
As that one can not communicate his email in all the world but everyone can communicate with you.
As on Deviantart.com or CrystalXP.net for example.
And as on deviantart when one has new a comments or a new message one is informed when one is logon on the site.

_ 2. why not integrate into the site a tool for translation like altavista for the people not speaking and not understanding English.

_ 3. In the same way, Why not make in kind in addition to the fact that the tutorials ones are clearer and on a single site (and not like now with a tutorial by application on the site of this one), that they exist in several languages.
(DesktopX is well in French for example, like objectdock and well of another products stardock).
for example in English, French, and Spanish as on CrystalXP.net.
That remains the three most current languages of the world and easiest to translate.

_ 4. Do not worry you too much for the remainder you remain the most complete site on the Net with best the applications of the market(it is a personal opinion.)

Moreover, it is well for that which I make the effort relearn English because it is not with my 2 to 3.5 of average out of 20 at the college that I could have written that.

Merry Christmas to you Brad and your family and for you all.
And continue to do this very good work for us.
Larry Tomczek
Reply #46 Friday, December 22, 2006 8:59 PM
AMEN TO THAT....im sick of bad skins....the ONLY good skinner is JJ Ying....well for the commerical front its SkinStuido with the alienware ones...
LittleBearJason
Reply #47 Friday, December 22, 2006 9:21 PM
Hey Stardock. Your products are full of incredible value and are worth more then a video game by itself is worth.

Something I would like to see one day is a U3 Compatible version of Object Desktop. A U3 version of this would allow you to take your desktop look where ever there is a Windows XP Computer without the need to install additional components on their machine. When the U3 Device is ejected, the desktop goes back to the way it looked before, and no harm is done
JeremyG
Reply #48 Friday, December 22, 2006 9:41 PM

Something I would like to see one day is a U3 Compatible version of Object Desktop. A U3 version of this would allow you to take your desktop look where ever there is a Windows XP Computer without the need to install additional components on their machine. When the U3 Device is ejected, the desktop goes back to the way it looked before, and no harm is done


This is a great idea. There's actually 3rd party tools to make apps like OD ones run on U3. I'm not sure if this would violate the license. I would assume it would NOT because it allows for you using it on a second computer as long as you're the primary user. Since a U3 device would count as installing it on a second computer...and then immediately removing it when you're done.....it seems like it would be OK.

I'd like Stardock to comment on this.
speedy5662
Reply #49 Friday, December 22, 2006 10:01 PM
Hey,

Wow, what an article!!!!

I would like to offer my services in anyway that they might be needed..

Speedy
Skinhit
Reply #50 Friday, December 22, 2006 10:05 PM
AMEN TO THAT....im sick of bad skins....the ONLY good skinner is JJ Ying


i beg to differ...there are quite a few very talented artists putting out high quality skins...i hate to sound like a broken record but try making something and see how hard it really is...
Erk.
Reply #51 Friday, December 22, 2006 10:33 PM
A wonderful and in-depth look into the way you guys think.

Some very pertinent points were raised in both the original post, and in the responses to same.

I too, see Stardock going on to bigger and better things as the years progress, and the fact that you have identified and are willing to deal with some/many of the problems that have arisen along the journey ~stands you in good stead with those who will be dealing with you in times to come.

I've put my hand up on several occasions with the offer to help out, even got a response to an email you [Brad} solicited at one point [a feat itself, considering your email inbox must be overflowing every day].

That offer still stands. If there's anything I can do to help out ...all you need do is say the word.

Keep up the great work, and all the best for Christmas & the New Year to Stardock Crew, and your respective families.

Erk
Sea Hourse
Reply #52 Friday, December 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Not only was the starting article itself an excellent one but so have the comments that have followed. I would not be so worried about some of the items that you discuss as this very long thread shows there is a very articulate and strong community with interest in this site. The fact that people come and go is nothing new. As long as you are able to integrate new blood into the system you will be fine. And I also would not worry so much about your own inability to be everywhere. You understand the need to delegate responsibility and find sufficient staff to cover all the bases.

It is clear that the most commonly seen fault of Stardock is in the lack of documentation to support its products. And this starts with actually using some of them and works its way along to the creation of new skins. I have tried to find as many tutorials as possible but even they are elusive. For starters, why not have a clearly designated "page" that is nothing but instructions on each product?

The idea mentioned above of having a page for ongoing projects is a good one as this would channel directly to one specific area all the issues regarding "how do I do this?" and "this is what I have but I don't know where to go next and would be willing to pass it on to someone else". Within both this page and the one regarding tutorials/instructions you need a very strong FAQ that can anticipate many of the reoccuring questions people have when they start out.

You and your company have a great deal to feel proud about. Your products are perfectly in tune with a consumer who demands ever greater personal customization and at a price that is affordable. And you have barely scratched the surface of the typical computer user who is completely unaware that everything they see on their desktop may be changed. Keep up the good work and my best wishes for a successful 2007.
SKoriginals
Reply #53 Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:19 AM
I for one love the idea of a wiki type site for skinning tutorials, facts, documentation and so on... one was started awhile back (Skin-wiki) but after a hack and lack of full support fell out. This I don't think would be anything of a problem with the proper support and backing of Stardock. This combined into a specific site for skinners (from the begainer to the advanced) would be great. I would be a regular staple at such a thing

Also, a 'standardizing' of creating skins would be great... I know I have crazy problems reading through such things as DX tutorials (being a graphics person and not a coder).

Everything suggested in the article is great and seems like one hell of a task in all. It would be great to see just 1/2 of it accomplished and I'm looking forward to seeing it come about.
starkers
Reply #54 Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:58 AM
AMEN TO THAT....im sick of bad skins....the ONLY good skinner is JJ Ying


This comment is the absolute opposite of what is needed around here. Not only does it contradict Frogboy's intent for Stardock/WC, it also is elitist in attitude and encourages no-one to upload/share their work.

Thank goodness people with such opinions are in the minority....otherwise the majority (those who are grateful for what is freely shared) may have been deprived of the truly fantastic skins produced by other very talented skinners. Granted, JJ Ying is a great skinner, but he is only one of many brilliant skinners producing quality work.

devin5801
Reply #55 Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:08 AM
Yeah I've always found it stupid that they charge you for skin studio.
Quentin94
Reply #56 Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:56 AM
#54 by Sir starkers
Sat, December 23, 2006 00:58 AM
Reply

Quote Watch
[starkers]
AMEN TO THAT....im sick of bad skins....the ONLY good skinner is JJ Ying


This comment is the absolute opposite of what is needed around here. Not only does it contradict Frogboy's intent for Stardock/WC, it also is elitist in attitude and encourages no-one to upload/share their work.

Thank goodness people with such opinions are in the minority....otherwise the majority (those who are grateful for what is freely shared) may have been deprived of the truly fantastic skins produced by other very talented skinners. Granted, JJ Ying is a great skinner, but he is only one of many brilliant skinners producing quality work.


thanks a lot for that.

I agree with you and I find really idiotic that some post for the pleasure of post. Especially that there it was not the subject but its opposite.

have a good day!
sViz
Reply #57 Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:49 AM
For those who have some place to be, the short story:

Some ideas:

A FAQ section for the popular programs like DX
More organized tutorial section
Streamlined forums
A place to share scripts
More examples in the DX documentation for the advanced stuff
Some kind of incentive to motivate people to help out in the community


For those who have time here’s my two cents.

If you take a look at my profile you'll see I haven't been here for very long so I'm actually still exploring and learning about the site. I'm here because I am a DesktopX user and I love DXscripting, widgets, DXthemes, and such. I can only speak to the issue that I identify with the most. The issue of the lack of support for newbies in the forum/community. It's not that people were mean; when I first arrived one of the best DX coders in the community, RomanDA, was quick to help me out (he's been doing a stand up job in helping out with tutorials) it's just that help seemed to come so few and far between. Looking at how there were so many amazing DX creations,I got the sense that there were alot of people who knew a great deal but weren't sharing for whatever reason. Could've been they weren't quite so eager to give away all their hard earned knowledge or it could've been they were tired of answering the same questions over and over. Understanding that, I did my best to learn what I could on my own and whenever I was stumped I'd come on the forums. I tried to leave good comments for people that shared their knowledge with the rest of us so they’d know it was appreciated (because it can’t be easy to spend all that time and energy to write up a tutorial or come up with a script only to share it and get nothing back) . Here are a few things that I thought would be nice speaking as a DX user:

A 'frequently asked' section-- I gather the general concensus is that noobs often keeping asking the same questions so wouldn't it be easier for everyone if these FAQs and their answers were rounded up and put somewhere that we can see them? Is there any way that someone could be in charge of updating the list by finding and adding more FAQs and their answers from the forum? Maybe the forumers could even suggest a FAQ along with the answer.

Organize the tutorial section—There’s alot to search through in that section. If only the titles were listed instead of the entire length of the tutorial it might be quicker to find what you're looking for (or not find what you're looking for and move on). Most of the tuts I came across were too advanced for me so maybe they could be rated beginners, moderate, advanced. Do the tuts have author defined tags? It would make categorizing and searching much easier. Did a search for RSS tutorial, got nothing. Googled and found that there was in fact one among the DX tutorials.

Streamlined forums—When I first arrived I was a little confused on where to post as regards to where I would get the quickest and most appropriate response. There was DX Stardock which one day seemed more active than here, and the next day DX Wincustomize seemed more active. Then there were several categories and sub forums which might’ve been appropriate but just seemed dead. Like over at Stardock there’s DX Development, wishlist, theme concepts, widget ideas etc. I see questions asked there that could just as well have been asked in general DX. Perhaps a short description of what applies to each of these forums would’ve helped guide users. I was also wondering why Stardock has seperate forums for DX etc. instead of a link back here.


A place to share scripts?— The really good tutorials are descriptive, have commented codes, and pictures to go with. Making tutorials can be time consuming and some of us aren’t the most clear & concise teachers. BUT it doesn’t mean we aren’t eager to share our work. I’ve seen some cool and dynamic scripts floating about lost in the DX forum. They weren’t exactly tutorials but if it’s just the piece of code I’ve been looking for how will I find it buried on page 10? Even if it isn’t a script to make a fully functioning object—could be a short piece of code that gets you a shortcut to ‘my computer’— it’d be nice to go to a place that’s wall to wall scripts. Commented, uncommented, long, or short.


DX Documentation—As was said the DX documentation is very good but some of the examples just say “you can do like this” and then there’s some code I don’t fully understand, e.g. the pop-up menu example is broken up. Until you read RomanDA’s tut you won’t know how it all goes together. I can do like what? Do I just insert this line here? Nope, I get an error. How about those activeX examples? I learned how to make a webpage that navigated to wincustomize and then I was totally lost.

Okay now here comes my silly idea:

I had an idea that there could be some sort of incentive for people to help out in the community. I’m not talking about the heavy duty stuff I read about going from a Citizen to a Super Wizop. Some of us will never be that talented even if we had all the free time in the world. Some kind of rewards points for making tutorials and answering questions. Depending on their accumulated score the person would be eligible for different rewards. The rewards could be an extra MB of downloads or something of that nature. Nothing that big just something that motivates users to remain active in the community (every little bit helps, right?) and gives new users something to work towards.


You still reading? Okay well, I gotta give props for this article seeing as how you mostly hear CEO’s talking about how fantastic everything is and how they have a classy, world-class company. Even if half the ideas in these comments aren’t realized it’s nice to see that this kind of discussion still exists, and that it is prompted by the big wigs theirselves. So props for keepin’ it real, Stardock/WC rules, and I’ll be watching how things go in ‘07.

Long comments are arduous aren’t they?
vStyler
Reply #58 Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:55 AM
havent read the whole thread but ive suggested a WIP forum many times, you wouldn't believe the amount of interest it would generate blows me away there isn't one here already, its 5 am , ill read this HUGE thread tommorrow and leave another comment.
TIM MOORE
Reply #59 Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:59 AM
well that answers why i cant find much on how to build here...i was going to buy some software,wanting to make my own themes,but being a complete novice..now i dont know.unless the other develpoer tools/software are as easy to use as object dock, drag and drop stuff, that i can do..good luck in 2007
Alternate Setting
Reply #60 Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:47 AM
I wouldn't like to work out exactly where Stardock's parenting role of the community begins & ends. I don't even know if there is a responsibility beyond that of producing an honest product with a degree of technical support to the consumer,who may or may not choose to become part of a skinning community.

All that aside, it's passion & dedication that keeps the community going, that brings new people in and producing ever more challenging pieces of work.

Everynow and then, the passion overheats, a torch is lit and some villagers go-a-marching towards someones castle ..... unfortunately, it's what happens in passionate communities sometimes.

So for what it's worth I figure as long as Stardock injects a little freshness every now and then with revised versions of it's products.......and as long as hubs like Wincustomize can offer an inviting atmosphere with easily navigable sections, then folks will be drawn to the energy that passion creates.

As with all passions, don't take it for granted and let it whither, nor make access too complicated and smother the work and support.

With all that in place, the only way I can see the community fail, is if it ceases to value itself.

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