Attention Mods; Missing Wall????
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 by PoSmedley | Discussion: WinCustomize Site Issues
My latest wall was approved, and shows in 'My Skins' but I can't see it in the wallpaper gallery. http://posmedley.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=29419&LibID=8&comments=1
I thought maybe it had to do with getting only 4 stars and my not having renewed my subscription and unable to see lower rated stuff...but...I can see my OD icon which also only has 4 stars.
http://posmedley.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=11487&LibID=29&comments=1
The wall has had zero downloads or comments since it passed moderation. which was sometime early this morning I believe..not to sound concieted, but I usually have at least one dl by now, so I am assuming no one else can see it either.
I thought maybe it had to do with getting only 4 stars and my not having renewed my subscription and unable to see lower rated stuff...but...I can see my OD icon which also only has 4 stars.
http://posmedley.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=11487&LibID=29&comments=1
The wall has had zero downloads or comments since it passed moderation. which was sometime early this morning I believe..not to sound concieted, but I usually have at least one dl by now, so I am assuming no one else can see it either.
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Zoomba
Reply #42 Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:10 PM
Reply #42 Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:10 PM
The only time a skin will be moved FROM the personal page to the main gallery is if it comes up for moderation again for a major update. This is NOT an invitation to resubmit walls previously placed on the personal page after you've had friends vote the wall up a bit. We can check the ratings records on skins and will spot attempts to manipulate the system.
Kenwas leaving WC had little to do with how the wall section was being moderated and more with the ratings system in general.
Kenwas leaving WC had little to do with how the wall section was being moderated and more with the ratings system in general.
Zoomba
Reply #44 Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:11 PM
Reply #44 Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:11 PM
The two are actually separate to a large degree.
Moderation determines if/where a submission is placed, and gives it an initial, stabilizing rating.
Ratings from that point come from users. The final score is based on an averaging of ratings given.
Moderation determines if/where a submission is placed, and gives it an initial, stabilizing rating.
Ratings from that point come from users. The final score is based on an averaging of ratings given.
Fairyy~
Reply #45 Thursday, November 30, 2006 1:11 AM
Kenwas wouldn't of had a problem with moderation as a Journeyman his walls by-passed mod que. Quite often after he put up a wall that went up with an automatic 6 rating - they kept getting d/rated to a 5. He felt someone was doing it for unknown reasons.
The good part is he can always change his mind and return after a break from it all.
Reply #45 Thursday, November 30, 2006 1:11 AM
| Kenwas leaving WC had little to do with how the wall section was being moderated and more with the ratings system in general. |
Kenwas wouldn't of had a problem with moderation as a Journeyman his walls by-passed mod que. Quite often after he put up a wall that went up with an automatic 6 rating - they kept getting d/rated to a 5. He felt someone was doing it for unknown reasons.
The good part is he can always change his mind and return after a break from it all.
Bandit4edu
Reply #46 Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:54 AM
Reply #46 Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:54 AM
IMHO...we've got a thread here initiated by one of the greatest icon artists I've ever witnessed, worried about a wallpaper.
In all truth, there has to be some checks (cheques for starkers) and balances or we'll have total anarchy and smiley faces drawn in MSPaint will populate every gallery! There are some flat out awesome artists here and no one is getting regulated to the personal page EVERY time, or rejected EVERY time...just keep submitting gang...The only reason I have downloads at all is because what's trash to 90% is treasure to the other 10. It takes all kinds...and thankfully, we have them represented here...would be a terrible mess if we all thought, created, and submitted the same stuff. If you're worried no one is looking at the personal pages, just the galleries, then maybe a quick fix would be to better advertise the personal pages. Not something like "see other work by this artist on his/her personal page", but "See more skins and art from this artist in their own personal gallery!" It's all in the wording and where you put the access points to the personal pages.
end tirade (ramble for starkers)
In all truth, there has to be some checks (cheques for starkers) and balances or we'll have total anarchy and smiley faces drawn in MSPaint will populate every gallery! There are some flat out awesome artists here and no one is getting regulated to the personal page EVERY time, or rejected EVERY time...just keep submitting gang...The only reason I have downloads at all is because what's trash to 90% is treasure to the other 10. It takes all kinds...and thankfully, we have them represented here...would be a terrible mess if we all thought, created, and submitted the same stuff. If you're worried no one is looking at the personal pages, just the galleries, then maybe a quick fix would be to better advertise the personal pages. Not something like "see other work by this artist on his/her personal page", but "See more skins and art from this artist in their own personal gallery!" It's all in the wording and where you put the access points to the personal pages.
end tirade (ramble for starkers)
PoSmedley
Reply #47 Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:27 PM
Reply #47 Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:27 PM
Here's a thought (yes, I get them once in awhile and they are often very lonely up there)...what if we also had the option to upload directly to our personal page without any rating? Maybe, just to avoid the gallery or ratings all together? Some people, who have a problem with the whole rating thing might like that.
Like I said, it's just a thought..oops...there it goes. Ahh, I can hear the ocean when it's empty.
Like I said, it's just a thought..oops...there it goes. Ahh, I can hear the ocean when it's empty.
starkers
Reply #48 Friday, December 1, 2006 3:52 AM
Thank you both very much for your kind thoughts & generosity, it is much appreciated.
I've got a few things to do first, but I'll email you both a little later this evening (Fri night Oz time).
Reply #48 Friday, December 1, 2006 3:52 AM
| hey Starkers....not that I'm an expert or anything even close, but i would love to see the walls that you speak of and possibly give my input. you can email me if you like mylogic@msndotcom i'd love to help |
| Money is tight here too starkers . . but I'd kick in a few dollars towards a WC sub for you and the missus. Let me know how, I'll let you know how much. |
Thank you both very much for your kind thoughts & generosity, it is much appreciated.
I've got a few things to do first, but I'll email you both a little later this evening (Fri night Oz time).
Zoomba
Reply #49 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:05 AM
Reply #49 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:05 AM
There already is an option box to check if you want something to be personal-page only.
PoSmedley
Reply #50 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:10 AM 
You learn something new everyday.
Thanks Zoomba!
Reply #50 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:10 AM
You learn something new everyday.
Thanks Zoomba!
kenwas
Reply #51 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:33 AM
Reply #51 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:33 AM
An interesting thread indeed! Greetings to so many that I have missed. I would like to clarify why I left WC for those that care to know. The moderation people certainly had nothing to do with it, in fact, they are all excellent folks doing a often thankless job. Jafo , in fact, came to be a friend (at least from my point of view ) and was always helpful as were many others.
The rating system has one major fault in my opinion that was the reason for my deciding it was not worth the aggravation to post here. First, not many people rate things (click the stars). A few single star votes ( almost always without explanation or comment) can therefore lower the rating enough so that an image is no longer visible to the general public. The fact that some weird folks vote "against" something as opposed to "for" something is just part of life on the web. WC is however the only site that I know of where this behavior can make the work invisible to the general public. Once an image or skin passes moderation, it should be visible to all regardless of the rating. The general public can therefore see if something is rated a single star or five stars and make their own decision. I often heard forget the rating and pay attention to the downloads. If the work is not visible to the public the downloads will be almost non existent in comparison to the visible skin or image. To share my work with the general public is the reason I publish it on the web in the first place. I only complain that the rating system policy allows work to become invisible to the public. I have my own "personal gallery" on my hard drive. I seriously doubt that many here search through the personal galleries.
It was pointed out to be that there are many subscribers here to give a large enough audience even if the general public could not see a particular image. I do not think it works that way. There are many skins here that I download when I want to use them and do not therefore have to download everything I like immediately as I know it is here for retrieval when wanted. But, I do not want to split hairs.
WC is the premier skinning site and certainly the largest. All things considered, it is a fine site with fine people working for it and running it. I will always check here for skins and to see how many of my fellow artists are doing. The rating system for the reason I discussed just did not work for me and my desire to share my work with everyone.
The Best of the Holiday Season to all!
Ken
) and was always helpful as were many others.The rating system has one major fault in my opinion that was the reason for my deciding it was not worth the aggravation to post here. First, not many people rate things (click the stars). A few single star votes ( almost always without explanation or comment) can therefore lower the rating enough so that an image is no longer visible to the general public. The fact that some weird folks vote "against" something as opposed to "for" something is just part of life on the web. WC is however the only site that I know of where this behavior can make the work invisible to the general public. Once an image or skin passes moderation, it should be visible to all regardless of the rating. The general public can therefore see if something is rated a single star or five stars and make their own decision. I often heard forget the rating and pay attention to the downloads. If the work is not visible to the public the downloads will be almost non existent in comparison to the visible skin or image. To share my work with the general public is the reason I publish it on the web in the first place. I only complain that the rating system policy allows work to become invisible to the public. I have my own "personal gallery" on my hard drive. I seriously doubt that many here search through the personal galleries.
It was pointed out to be that there are many subscribers here to give a large enough audience even if the general public could not see a particular image. I do not think it works that way. There are many skins here that I download when I want to use them and do not therefore have to download everything I like immediately as I know it is here for retrieval when wanted. But, I do not want to split hairs.
WC is the premier skinning site and certainly the largest. All things considered, it is a fine site with fine people working for it and running it. I will always check here for skins and to see how many of my fellow artists are doing. The rating system for the reason I discussed just did not work for me and my desire to share my work with everyone.
The Best of the Holiday Season to all!
Ken
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #52 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:55 AM
Reply #52 Friday, December 1, 2006 7:55 AM
I do wish you would reconsider your decision. Your walls are greatly
missed by me and are incredibly popular throughout the community as a
whole.
This isn't intended as a criticism but I feel removing your walls is depriving the very people you seek to reach of seeing your work. I appreciate your views of the rating system, but that system is unlikely to change anytime soon. I do believe work the quality of yours is highly unlikely to drop out of sight, I would be disappointed if it did. Again I hope you will reconsider.
If you do change your mind, just give me the word - restoring these fine walls would be a pleasure.
If anyone feels their skins have been marked down unfairly, please do contact a moderator for assistance - that is what we are here for
This isn't intended as a criticism but I feel removing your walls is depriving the very people you seek to reach of seeing your work. I appreciate your views of the rating system, but that system is unlikely to change anytime soon. I do believe work the quality of yours is highly unlikely to drop out of sight, I would be disappointed if it did. Again I hope you will reconsider.
If you do change your mind, just give me the word - restoring these fine walls would be a pleasure.
If anyone feels their skins have been marked down unfairly, please do contact a moderator for assistance - that is what we are here for
PoSmedley
Reply #53 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:26 AM
Reply #53 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:26 AM
I am asking this, only because I don't know...
Why, if the rating drops to a certain level, are the walls invisible to the general public?
If I had to guess, it either has to do with conserving space or server space (Like I said, I'm guessing, what do I know?) or to encourage people to subscribe. If the latter, wouldn't it (and I am NOT suggesting the site implement this) make more sense to hide the higher rated ones to encourage subscribing?
This makes perfect sense. The exception being something that maybe was found to be offensive by a significant number of people (like that boot I uploaded when I lost my mind a while back)
I understand that WC feels very strongly about the rating system. In all the threads I have read, regarding this, I can see that a lot of time and thought went into the best way to run it. Perhaps, though, just maybe...considering it is one of the most talked about subjects and talked about passionately....some changes could be tested with the understanding it was just that, a TEST. Try them out, one at a time for as long as needed to get feedback and all. As the mods have acknowledged themselves, it's not perfect, so why not try something to see if it can get a little closer to perfect?
Why, if the rating drops to a certain level, are the walls invisible to the general public?
If I had to guess, it either has to do with conserving space or server space (Like I said, I'm guessing, what do I know?) or to encourage people to subscribe. If the latter, wouldn't it (and I am NOT suggesting the site implement this) make more sense to hide the higher rated ones to encourage subscribing?
| Once an image or skin passes moderation, it should be visible to all regardless of the rating. |
This makes perfect sense. The exception being something that maybe was found to be offensive by a significant number of people (like that boot I uploaded when I lost my mind a while back)
| I appreciate your views of the rating system, but that system is unlikely to change anytime soon. |
I understand that WC feels very strongly about the rating system. In all the threads I have read, regarding this, I can see that a lot of time and thought went into the best way to run it. Perhaps, though, just maybe...considering it is one of the most talked about subjects and talked about passionately....some changes could be tested with the understanding it was just that, a TEST. Try them out, one at a time for as long as needed to get feedback and all. As the mods have acknowledged themselves, it's not perfect, so why not try something to see if it can get a little closer to perfect?
sydneysiders
Reply #54 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:39 AM
Agree whole-heartedly…
Has happened to me a couple of times…one already had about 300 downloads with 3 or 4 positive comments and then disappeared from sight with only trickle downloads since. Another, I think went in at 3 stars and within a day was 1 ½ stars and invisible with no comments/explanations……deleted it in disgust…
Definitely takes the edge off keenness to submit…especially for newcomers and the ‘not so artistic but just having some fun’…very demoralizing…many work hard to have their work accepted by the moderators, then are at the mercy of people who may not always be responsible in the way they approach rating another’s work or who do not create/submit any work themselves and are perhaps ignorant of the effort put into it, or do not take into account the age and experience of the creator……all these are things that should be taken into consideration before clicking a star…not just what personally appeals to you.
Kenwas, while I’m very glad someone of your talent and stature in this community has brought this to the fore for those of us at the other end of the star scale…I’m very saddened that it means we have lost you and your work. Very much looked forward to your beautiful walls…most especially the nauticals…
…and while I’m putting in my 2 cents worth…personally, I would prefer to have a submission outright rejected so I can work on it and improve it and try again or have the choice of submitting to my personal page…not have it automatically go to my personal page……somehow doesn’t sit right…
Come back Kenwas…
Reply #54 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:39 AM
| The rating system has one major fault in my opinion |
| A few single star votes ( almost always without explanation or comment) can therefore lower the rating enough so that an image is no longer visible to the general public. |
Agree whole-heartedly…
Has happened to me a couple of times…one already had about 300 downloads with 3 or 4 positive comments and then disappeared from sight with only trickle downloads since. Another, I think went in at 3 stars and within a day was 1 ½ stars and invisible with no comments/explanations……deleted it in disgust…
Definitely takes the edge off keenness to submit…especially for newcomers and the ‘not so artistic but just having some fun’…very demoralizing…many work hard to have their work accepted by the moderators, then are at the mercy of people who may not always be responsible in the way they approach rating another’s work or who do not create/submit any work themselves and are perhaps ignorant of the effort put into it, or do not take into account the age and experience of the creator……all these are things that should be taken into consideration before clicking a star…not just what personally appeals to you.
Kenwas, while I’m very glad someone of your talent and stature in this community has brought this to the fore for those of us at the other end of the star scale…I’m very saddened that it means we have lost you and your work. Very much looked forward to your beautiful walls…most especially the nauticals…
…and while I’m putting in my 2 cents worth…personally, I would prefer to have a submission outright rejected so I can work on it and improve it and try again or have the choice of submitting to my personal page…not have it automatically go to my personal page……somehow doesn’t sit right…
Come back Kenwas…
ZubaZ
Reply #55 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:45 AM
This argument has been made before and it makes sense on the surface. But if non-subscribers didn't see the higher rated skins would they subscribe at all?
*I* always thought that the best fit would be to allow download of lower rated skins but display the higher rated ones.
In regards to testing alternative rating schemes, there is significant database work needed to manage the rating system as it is. Spending time and money developing alternatives (of which only one is going to be chosen) would likely not be a good use of resources. It brings up the whole question of Stardock resources being used for WC. Would we rather that time and money go into apps or web dev? Which brings up the question of whether WC makes SD more money than it costs to run . . etc.
Reply #55 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:45 AM
| If I had to guess, it either has to do with conserving space or server space (Like I said, I'm guessing, what do I know?) or to encourage people to subscribe. If the latter, wouldn't it (and I am NOT suggesting the site implement this) make more sense to hide the higher rated ones to encourage subscribing? |
This argument has been made before and it makes sense on the surface. But if non-subscribers didn't see the higher rated skins would they subscribe at all?
*I* always thought that the best fit would be to allow download of lower rated skins but display the higher rated ones.
In regards to testing alternative rating schemes, there is significant database work needed to manage the rating system as it is. Spending time and money developing alternatives (of which only one is going to be chosen) would likely not be a good use of resources. It brings up the whole question of Stardock resources being used for WC. Would we rather that time and money go into apps or web dev? Which brings up the question of whether WC makes SD more money than it costs to run . . etc.
ZubaZ
Reply #56 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:49 AM
If it goes straight to your personal pages . . you still know that it needs work. You can then decide whether it's good enough for you ("the mods wouldn't know "good" if it walked up and said "Hi"" argument), update it ("I bet it got rated low for this") or delete it yourself.
I would think it gives you more (easier) options.
Reply #56 Friday, December 1, 2006 9:49 AM
| …and while I’m putting in my 2 cents worth…personally, I would prefer to have a submission outright rejected so I can work on it and improve it and try again or have the choice of submitting to my personal page…not have it automatically go to my personal page……somehow doesn’t sit right… |
If it goes straight to your personal pages . . you still know that it needs work. You can then decide whether it's good enough for you ("the mods wouldn't know "good" if it walked up and said "Hi"" argument), update it ("I bet it got rated low for this") or delete it yourself.
I would think it gives you more (easier) options.
PoSmedley
Reply #57 Friday, December 1, 2006 10:01 AM
You mean, 'not' being able to dl the higher ones unless you subscribe? 'That' would make sense. It may not be 'liked' by a lot, but it would make sense.
Not realizing (after ALL this time) that we had the option to upload right to our personal pages (and I am going to stop after this, because I think to freakin much)..perhaps a categorie or a 'Featured Personal Pages' section to encourage people to actually look at the personal pages and maybe even encourage members to make more use of them?
Reply #57 Friday, December 1, 2006 10:01 AM
| *I* always thought that the best fit would be to allow download of lower rated skins but display the higher rated ones. |
You mean, 'not' being able to dl the higher ones unless you subscribe? 'That' would make sense. It may not be 'liked' by a lot, but it would make sense.
Not realizing (after ALL this time) that we had the option to upload right to our personal pages (and I am going to stop after this, because I think to freakin much)..perhaps a categorie or a 'Featured Personal Pages' section to encourage people to actually look at the personal pages and maybe even encourage members to make more use of them?
ZubaZ
Reply #58 Friday, December 1, 2006 10:46 AM
On the new site (http://test.wincustomize.com/), second column, 4th section down.: "Today's hot pages"
Reply #58 Friday, December 1, 2006 10:46 AM
| perhaps a categorie or a 'Featured Personal Pages' section to encourage people to actually look at the personal pages and maybe even encourage members to make more use of them? |
On the new site (http://test.wincustomize.com/), second column, 4th section down.: "Today's hot pages"
Bandit4edu
Reply #59 Friday, December 1, 2006 12:43 PM
easy lad...I'm an educator, remember
Didn't I suggest something similar just a few posts back? Hey folks! mine are the posts with the bandit mask in the upper left hand corner...
personal "galleries" and posting directly too them should give a visitor an insight into the artist and work that they may not even want to submit to the general galleries.
Reply #59 Friday, December 1, 2006 12:43 PM
| (and I am going to stop after this, because I think to freakin much) |
easy lad...I'm an educator, remember
| perhaps a categorie or a 'Featured Personal Pages' section to encourage people to actually look at the personal pages and maybe even encourage members to make more use of them? |
| On the new site (http://test.wincustomize.com/), second column, 4th section down.: "Today's hot pages" |
Didn't I suggest something similar just a few posts back? Hey folks! mine are the posts with the bandit mask in the upper left hand corner...
personal "galleries" and posting directly too them should give a visitor an insight into the artist and work that they may not even want to submit to the general galleries.
Pumakitten57
Reply #60 Friday, December 1, 2006 12:47 PM
Reply #60 Friday, December 1, 2006 12:47 PM
Thanks zoomba! Just figured out how to make a personal page.... 
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Reply #41 Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:53 PM
Money is tight here too starkers . . but I'd kick in a few dollars towards a WC sub for you and the missus. Let me know how, I'll let you know how much.
[you can email me by clicking on my name in this post and choosing "Email ZubaZ']