Permissions - again
Saturday, May 6, 2006 by vikram sheorey | Discussion: Community
Hi, having read through a previous thread regarding this issue the only thing about it that is black and white is that it's totally grey.
e.g. is there any difference between acknowledging someone elses work and getting permission from them?
Over the brief time that I've been coming to this site I've seen skins, if not partially but totally using someone elses work. Skins involving films and games are perfect examples with seemingly no credit given to the images used.
I've looked at the back of boxes of games that I have got, and they all clearly state that all images and logos incorporated into the product are trademarks/copyrights of so and so. OK, that I can deal with and if I would want to use such material would legally be required to obtain permission to use them in future skins.
So then we come to screenshots of a game you might be playing and you happen to get yourself in a situation whereyou think what's on the screen might actually make a pretty good skin. Sure you're using someone elses work (i.e. the developers) to get into the gameplay situation you're in, but in a sense it is your creation since this is how your game has panned out. What then?
If you need permission for this then where do you draw the line? Are you expected to acknowledge someone for producing a product that you may have used?
What about sports team logos? If it has the 'TM' mark on it that automatically means you can't use it without permission no matter how much you might manipulate the original image. Correct?
From a moral and ethical point of view I have no problem - simple rule is that credit where credit is due. As with most people also acknowledging the fact that you have been helped by other skinners to iron out some problems is good.
It's the actual legal point of view that concerns me.
I know what some people might say: well if you're having such problems make your own images! Believe me I would if I was any type of designer. Trying to cut out a circular image from a rectangular one has totally stumped me for now. That's how good I am.
e.g. is there any difference between acknowledging someone elses work and getting permission from them?
Over the brief time that I've been coming to this site I've seen skins, if not partially but totally using someone elses work. Skins involving films and games are perfect examples with seemingly no credit given to the images used.
I've looked at the back of boxes of games that I have got, and they all clearly state that all images and logos incorporated into the product are trademarks/copyrights of so and so. OK, that I can deal with and if I would want to use such material would legally be required to obtain permission to use them in future skins.
So then we come to screenshots of a game you might be playing and you happen to get yourself in a situation whereyou think what's on the screen might actually make a pretty good skin. Sure you're using someone elses work (i.e. the developers) to get into the gameplay situation you're in, but in a sense it is your creation since this is how your game has panned out. What then?
If you need permission for this then where do you draw the line? Are you expected to acknowledge someone for producing a product that you may have used?
What about sports team logos? If it has the 'TM' mark on it that automatically means you can't use it without permission no matter how much you might manipulate the original image. Correct?
From a moral and ethical point of view I have no problem - simple rule is that credit where credit is due. As with most people also acknowledging the fact that you have been helped by other skinners to iron out some problems is good.
It's the actual legal point of view that concerns me.
I know what some people might say: well if you're having such problems make your own images! Believe me I would if I was any type of designer. Trying to cut out a circular image from a rectangular one has totally stumped me for now. That's how good I am.
-scion-
Reply #2 Saturday, May 6, 2006 1:11 PM
Reply #2 Saturday, May 6, 2006 1:11 PM
many of the skins you see here that incorporate images from games, film...etc... fall under the "fan art" portion of the copyright law. the artist is not selling his/her work, only sharing it with the community. as long as you are not using an image created by someone else you should be okay. you can't go to the green bay packer's web site, copy the image and paste it into your skin, for example. no matter how much you modify it, the base image is still stolen, therefore copyrighted...in other words, theft. now, you could create your own image "inspired" by the green bay packer's logo from scratch to use in your work...that falls under "fan art". you can not copyright fan art, only share it. so if someone else uses your green bay packer image...ethically it's wrong, but you own no copyright to it. at times, companies will ask that fan art be removed for whatever reason as in the case with _kol's vista skin...they may have to no legal recourse against you but it's generally a good idea to remove it if asked.
rule of thumb: if you've copied the image from somewhere and intend to redistribute it...then you're in trouble. if you've created and imaged "inspired" by something from scratch, you should be okay.
rule of thumb: if you've copied the image from somewhere and intend to redistribute it...then you're in trouble. if you've created and imaged "inspired" by something from scratch, you should be okay.
vikram sheorey
Reply #3 Saturday, May 6, 2006 2:01 PM
Reply #3 Saturday, May 6, 2006 2:01 PM
I think I know what you're saying Scion. I can't use a team logo as it is. However I can if I were to distort it ( change colours - which is a bit silly for a team logo, skew it etc ) then that counts as 'fan art' and is OK?!
Surely an image inspired by a team logo relies on the base image from where the inspiration comes from? From what you say using a base image is wrong but "inspired" work is OK. Surely this is wrong as well since the "inspired" image has it's foundations in the base image and therefore has not been created from scratch.
What about downloadable images? Does the fact that if something is downloadable the creator has by definition given consent for that image to be used elsewhere as long as it is for non-commercial use whether that be for distributed or for personal use.
As for using my own images Double Zero I'm way too far down the evolutionary tree of skinning to make even some sucky images right now. I can just about manage a black shape. I can't even use that since someone has done that already and it's hanging in the Tate Modern Gallery selling for millions under the title of something like 'night'. Don't believe me, well I've seen it and it does exist Probably get knicked for that as well!!
.
Surely an image inspired by a team logo relies on the base image from where the inspiration comes from? From what you say using a base image is wrong but "inspired" work is OK. Surely this is wrong as well since the "inspired" image has it's foundations in the base image and therefore has not been created from scratch.
What about downloadable images? Does the fact that if something is downloadable the creator has by definition given consent for that image to be used elsewhere as long as it is for non-commercial use whether that be for distributed or for personal use.
As for using my own images Double Zero I'm way too far down the evolutionary tree of skinning to make even some sucky images right now. I can just about manage a black shape. I can't even use that since someone has done that already and it's hanging in the Tate Modern Gallery selling for millions under the title of something like 'night'. Don't believe me, well I've seen it and it does exist Probably get knicked for that as well!!
.
Double Zero
Reply #4 Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:07 PM
LoL..If you create an image..no matter how much the resemblence..that image was created by you, and is infact *your creation...the concept of that image may belong to someone else..but thats another can of worms..
Graphics take practice and imagination... inspiration from others goes a long way..
You'll do great if you just keep trying..eventually it will all come together..
But you have to try at least, or you wont ever be able to make a circle from a square!...LoL
Read, read, read, Tutorials...as someone told me once, you dont have to re-invent the wheel when someones already done it...How you apply the lessons is what makes it unique..
Permissions are fine if you can get them, but it is more satisfying when you upload an image that you created yourself...and there is more than a grey area on the topic at WC...
Reply #4 Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:07 PM
| As for using my own images Double Zero I'm way too far down the evolutionary tree of skinning to make even some sucky images right now. I can just about manage a black shape. I can't even use that since someone has done that already and it's hanging in the Tate Modern Gallery selling for millions under the title of something like 'night'. Don't believe me, well I've seen it and it does exist Probably get knicked for that as well!! |
LoL..If you create an image..no matter how much the resemblence..that image was created by you, and is infact *your creation...the concept of that image may belong to someone else..but thats another can of worms..
Graphics take practice and imagination... inspiration from others goes a long way..
You'll do great if you just keep trying..eventually it will all come together..
But you have to try at least, or you wont ever be able to make a circle from a square!...LoL
Read, read, read, Tutorials...as someone told me once, you dont have to re-invent the wheel when someones already done it...How you apply the lessons is what makes it unique..
Permissions are fine if you can get them, but it is more satisfying when you upload an image that you created yourself...and there is more than a grey area on the topic at WC...
vikram sheorey
Reply #5 Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:20 PM
Yeah yeah yeah. I actually have over the ast few days sweated blood to be able to do this
Now if you could please tell me how to CUT it out of a square and use the blinking thing again somewhere else that would be of enormous help.
Reply #5 Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:20 PM
| But you have to try at least, or you wont ever be able to make a circle from a square!...LoL |
Yeah yeah yeah. I actually have over the ast few days sweated blood to be able to do this
Now if you could please tell me how to CUT it out of a square and use the blinking thing again somewhere else that would be of enormous help.
-scion-
Reply #6 Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:23 PM
Reply #6 Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:23 PM
what's i was saying is that if you take the exact image that you lifted off a website and recolor it, the image you started with is not yours...that's not fan art. fan art is done from a blank canvas which ALL of the work is done by yourself. think of it like this:
imagine a ford focus. if you buy the focus and repaint it and add new wheels, you didn't build the car, you enhanced it...therefore you cannot slap your own name and logo on it and sell it as your own brand of vehicle. the car is still a ford no matter what you do.
now if you gather the resources and fabricate the entire car youself, it may look exactly like a focus, but ford has put no physical work into it other than the design concept that you copied. your vehicle was "inspired" by the ford focus. if you were to try to sell this vehicle for profit, ford would want a peice of it. but if you were to put it on public display, ford can't say a word...that's fan art.
imagine a ford focus. if you buy the focus and repaint it and add new wheels, you didn't build the car, you enhanced it...therefore you cannot slap your own name and logo on it and sell it as your own brand of vehicle. the car is still a ford no matter what you do.
now if you gather the resources and fabricate the entire car youself, it may look exactly like a focus, but ford has put no physical work into it other than the design concept that you copied. your vehicle was "inspired" by the ford focus. if you were to try to sell this vehicle for profit, ford would want a peice of it. but if you were to put it on public display, ford can't say a word...that's fan art.
Double Zero
Reply #8 Saturday, May 6, 2006 5:58 PM
Hit the Del Key .. Click inside the marquee and drag it anywhere else on your matt you want...
Reply #8 Saturday, May 6, 2006 5:58 PM
| Now if you could please tell me how to CUT it out of a square and use the blinking thing again somewhere else that would be of enormous help. |
Hit the Del Key .. Click inside the marquee and drag it anywhere else on your matt you want...
vikram sheorey
Reply #9 Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:30 PM
Reply #9 Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:30 PM
It's kind of working.Thanks.
Trial and error I'm afraid. I'm using Photofiltre.
I think I sorted out the problem though and that is I need a circular canvas, I think. I don't suppose you've got one of those have you?
Trial and error I'm afraid. I'm using Photofiltre.
I think I sorted out the problem though and that is I need a circular canvas, I think. I don't suppose you've got one of those have you?
Jafo
Reply #10 Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:32 PM
Reply #10 Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:32 PM
| What about downloadable images? Does the fact that if something is downloadable the creator has by definition given consent for that image to be used elsewhere as long as it is for non-commercial use whether that be for distributed or for personal use. |
No, the capacity to download and redistribute does not define copyright, in the same way that an unlocked car does not entitle its theft.
Generally downloadable images will be for PERSONAL use only...which means they remain on your OWN computer, or are printed out to stick on your OWN fridge.
To be redistributed here in any shape or form they need to be value-added-to, eg as a logon with ALL the other parts skinned as well. Image source should then be linked to to verify terms of distribution.
Now, by and large, the Moderators here are NOT 'thought-police' responsible for determining the viability of a 'skinner's uploads. The terms of submission here actually REQUIRE the uploader to be responsible for what he/she submits.
People have been excluded from Wincustomize.com simply for continually ignoring this.
I found it the height of stupidity/ignorance for one to end up asking ME where to get 'suitable' images to turn into bootskins since each and every site he was sourcing strictly prohibited public re-use.
The answer is...if you cannot 'find' suitable content you won't be uploading anything....
Or...
You do it yourself. If the outcome is crap well, guess what...it's telling you you may be better off reading a book.
Not everyone is a competent 'artist'/'skinner'.
Claiming you are at least trying hard and plagiarising won't win friends and influence people....
Double Zero
Reply #11 Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:57 PM
Ok..well then do you know where there is a unlocked car I could steal?..
LMAO
Reply #11 Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:57 PM
| I found it the height of stupidity/ignorance for one to end up asking ME where to get 'suitable' images to turn into bootskins since each and every site he was sourcing strictly prohibited public re-use. |
Ok..well then do you know where there is a unlocked car I could steal?..
LMAO
vikram sheorey
Reply #12 Saturday, May 6, 2006 8:21 PM
I do hope this was a general comment and not one directed at me since I don't remember EVER having asked anyone where to get suitable images for any type of skins.
I've only uploaded one skin so far ( Chaos - Logon ) and I got permission from the artist and acknowledged the fact that I had some technical help from one of the other skinners.
As you can see from most of this thread I am new to skinning and just wanted to have some clarification as to what needed permission and what does not.
Scion gave me a great analogy and that's now understood.
Reply #12 Saturday, May 6, 2006 8:21 PM
I found it the height of stupidity/ignorance for one to end up asking ME where to get 'suitable' images to turn into bootskins since each and every site he was sourcing strictly prohibited public re-use. |
I do hope this was a general comment and not one directed at me since I don't remember EVER having asked anyone where to get suitable images for any type of skins.
I've only uploaded one skin so far ( Chaos - Logon ) and I got permission from the artist and acknowledged the fact that I had some technical help from one of the other skinners.
As you can see from most of this thread I am new to skinning and just wanted to have some clarification as to what needed permission and what does not.
Scion gave me a great analogy and that's now understood.
Jafo
Reply #13 Saturday, May 6, 2006 8:39 PM
Reply #13 Saturday, May 6, 2006 8:39 PM
No...it definitely wasn't you....but it's politic that the twit remains nameless...
Double Zero
Reply #14 Saturday, May 6, 2006 9:58 PM
I have a good idea who it was...I think he even posted a request on the boards for people to give him ideas ..LoL
I must admit..I havent seen him around much...lately
Reply #14 Saturday, May 6, 2006 9:58 PM
| No...it definitely wasn't you....but it's politic that the twit remains nameless.. |
I have a good idea who it was...I think he even posted a request on the boards for people to give him ideas ..LoL
I must admit..I havent seen him around much...lately
vikram sheorey
Reply #15 Saturday, May 6, 2006 11:04 PM
Agreed
Reply #15 Saturday, May 6, 2006 11:04 PM
No...it definitely wasn't you....but it's politic that the twit remains nameless... |
Agreed
mossedmoon
Reply #16 Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:39 PM
Reply #16 Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:39 PM
The safest road is, permission, permission, permission. Having said this, I feel that credit given should be sufficient. When I upload a poem or it is published in a periodical or quarterly, the copyright is automatic. I can use someone else's words or phrase within quotation marks, add a footnote stating who the quote came from, and this is legal. I'm not stealing his stuff and passing it off as my own. I can even receive payment for my work, and I don't need permission from Mark Twain's estate, nor do I have to give them a percentage of my profits. If someone wants to use my stuff and states that the work come's from me, I'm more than fine with that. I've never seen more sensative feet than on the internet. Everyone wants to protect their peanuts. I hold the sites at fault more than the individual skinner. I'm sure my comment will make some faces stern or red or both, but the law needs relaxing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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Reply #1 Saturday, May 6, 2006 12:28 PM
I cant figure it out... im told one thing but I see the opposite..
I give up...LoL
When you figure it out..let me know...
For now I will just make my own images..they may suck, but their mine!