Thoughts on DesktopX's future
Life in a Windows Vista world
Monday, November 21, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: DesktopX
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Stardock makes DesktopX Enterprise which can export entire desktops as enviroments and even then has licensing involved per seat. Why does Stardock do that? Our answer: Because we don't really want people to do that because it could compete with premium content Stardock creates/sells with DesktopX. But the whole discussion touches on the problem that has plagued DesktopX since the beginning -- what exactly IS DesktopX? It's own versatility has been helped it and hurt it because no one knows what exactly it's supposed to do. It gets compared to the myriad of widget programs like Konfabulator because it can, amongst a zillion other things, do widgets. It gets compared to Litestep because you can build desktops. It gets compared to Avedesk because it can put desktop objects on your system. It gets compared to Visual Studio and Visual Basic because you can integrate COM/ActiveX controls into your creations seamlessly. DesktopX can essentially build anything that lives on a desktop. You could build a custom spread sheet: DesktopX can be used to create fancy auto-run programs. Stardock uses it internally to create its auto-run programs: But there is always the issue -- how much does one charge for this? Creating these things was non-trivial and there is some value in our stuff looking "Better" than would be competitors in other markets because of this. Value that would be greater than say $69.95 really. Someone could buy DesktopX Pro for $69.95 and start up a business creating auto-runs for companies. But still there's always a question on pricing.
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No because it requires immense effort still. Visual Studio can't turn out a Word processor in a couple of weeks. DesktopX Pro can build some very specific types of unique content without alot of effort. Let's use Natural Desktop as an example -- with DesktopX Enterprise, we built that in a few weeks with just a couple people. With Visual Studio, it would have taken many many many months to do it. For building desktops, DesktopX is very specialized at the types of content it can create just as programs like Maya are specialized to create 3D models. There were a lot of people at Stardock who didn't want DesktopX Pro or Enteprise to exist at all (particularly Enterprise). If Konfabulator has shown anything to be true it is that the CONTENT matters more than the technology of the thing that uses the content. DesktopX can create, relatively easily, a very specific type of unique content that people want. So the question is which direction is best? Turn DesktopX into a quasi-internal-only tool to create other stuff to sell that is stand-alone? Or to make it available to other developers who might compete with content Stardock might want to sell? There's no easy answer. Let me give you a totally unrelated example: The Political Machine. Stardock developed a Direct3D backend for DesktopX to take its .dxpacks and run them in a 3D environment. As a result, Stardock was able to crank out the user interfaces and screens for The Political Machine in a very short amount of time. This allowed Stardock to cut development time on the game in half. This led to the question -- should Stardock try to encourage/sell DesktopX Enterprise to other game developers to help them (And generate additional revenue) or should DesktopX Enterprise be used as a competitive advantage for Stardock's own internal game design teams? Like most things, the answer ended up somewhere in between -- we decided that we would tell people how we wer able to create all these game screens so fast but we wouldn't encourage people too much to use DesktopX for game making unless they came to us and negotiated licensing. The Desktop Pet is a good example and you'll see why when it comes out. That was created with DesktopX Pro (not Enterprise). The Desktop Pet will probably sell 5,000 to 10,000 copies on-line and if we get it into retail another 20,000 to 30,000 units. You couldn't create a desktop pet with say Konfabulator or any of the other "widget" programs because they're currently too limited. But DesktopX Pro, out of the box, can do it. One developer and one 3D modeler in a couple months. And there's nothing out ther that is anywhere near as sophisticated. But there's nothing stopping someone else from doing the same thing as we're doing. All some larger company would have to do is pick up a copy of DesktopX Pro for $69.95 and create "Virtual Rover" or something and have a hit leaving our pet in the dust. So again, there is always some conflict over how DesktopX should be marketed. Some might say "Why does Stardock even let DesktopX be available at all to the public?" A good example was a product we barely publicized because the pricing was never easy to nail down. It was called Impression Creator. It made it easy to create those auto-run menus that you see when you put your CD in the drive. We noticed something -- most of those menus look terrible and most of them look as if the developer was trying to make them quasi-skinned. But with Impression Creator (which is just DesktopX Pro re-branded) you could create spectacular ones in an afternoon. But what killed it is when DesktopX's price was moved to $69.95. At that point, it was too much of a niche market to justify putting scarce marketing resources into. Moreover, we've seen that the person or company creating the content gets more credit than the technology behind it. We'd be better off providing such content creation as a service that we could then bring in skinners from the community to work with us on. Despite all the power of DesktopX, third-parties have not really done that much with it. This is the opposite experience we've had with WindowBlinds where skinners run the show. So far, because people make trinkets like clocks or try to copy what's been done on Konfabulator, the issue with what DesktopX should and shouldn't do has never come to a head. A few months back someone made an Aero web browser using DesktopX that was fully compatible with Internet Explorer (it uses its ActiveX control). I know that raised some eye brows around here. Some people forget that DesktopX was developed during a different time in the skinning community. The target market for it was skinners (same as WindowBlinds). It was expected that the community would jump in and figure out all the neat things that can be done with it. But that didn't happen. And so 4 years later, Konfabulator shows up on the Mac and then eventually on Windows. And unlike DesktopX, its developer included abunch of really cool content it made itself. It wasn't made with skinners in mind, making a Konfabulator widget (especially when it was first released) was huge pain. They focused purely on the consumers -- the users. Imagine how different DesktopX's history might have been in 75% of the budget wasn't spend on the content creation elements -- the GUI for creating, manipulating, and exporting objects and desktops? 6 months alone were spent figuring out how to make ActiveX controls move seamlessly with other DekstopX objects. Nothing else can do that. But how many things use ActiveX controls? Hardly any. It's incredibly powerful stuff but instead people debate which is "better" based on how pretty the little PNG files that display clocks and weather monitors and other trivialities. In other words, Stardock developed DesktopX under the misconception that the key to success was getting "Skinners" on board. But that has changed in the past few years. What we've seen both in our own experience is that consumers are driving success. Consumers will choose what they find easiest/best to use and THEN the skinners will follow what the consumers are already doing. It doesn't matter that Konfabulator and the rest have no real development environment for the skinner. The skinner will sit down in some editor and peck out their XML and their JavaScript and deal with all the other hassles because that's where all the user are. The problem is that DesktopX is still saddled with all this development environment stuff which adds a great deal of complexity and overhead to the actual environment (unless you use just the DesktopX run-time which we did in 3.0). If there's a DesktopX 4, I think you'll find it a very very different animal. It'll not care about the content creation, it'll use XAML what content creation help it provides will mostly be about making it easier to do simple things (widgets for instance) but fancier things would be done using Sparkle and what not. But it's hard to say this early on. |
Reply #22 Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:39 AM
| That is also represents a failure on WC's part. In the future, WinCustomize should serve as a meeting place where people can work together more easily. |
Now that is something I agree with whole heartedly!
Reply #23 Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:42 AM
| Project pages would be an interesting feature at WC. People could create teams and set up projects. I know that there is nothing stopping people from doing that allready now, but if there was a premade system I think it'd encourage it. |
Something like how ArgoUML is developed?
Reply #24 Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:07 PM
If I were King, I'd take a kernel product like Desktop X, make sure that it creates robust and stable output, then add lots of modular extensions. Want an Object Bar menu? Great, use Desktop X and this plug-in to create them. Want to create an entire desktop? Have the entire workflow set up around Desktop X. But when its done, create a desktop that is rock solid. I do like the idea of using a separate image editor (like Photoshop). My feeling is that this product should not try to compete in any area except customizing the GUI and enhancing the desktop functionality.
Pricing is always tough, but if you get above $99 you are entering a realm that will probalby see fewer customers and less contributors to help sell the product.
Finally - I ran into Stardock by accident. I was looking for a launcher, Googled that, and found Object Bar. Then I found Stardock and a whole world of great extensibility opened up. I've referred quite a few people since, but how many folks are out there who would LOVE something like this but simply don't know about it? Just my $0.02.
Reply #25 Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:38 PM
Not knowing the diffences between DX and DX enterprise, I wouldn't say how much to charge. But it seems likely that if you price it in the range of $59-$79 you'll have a chance to build a large body of customers. And, yes, hit the schools. There are many sites run that deal with product interface individuality. This whole DX thing could just widen the market.
Reply #26 Thursday, November 24, 2005 10:40 AM
I think trying to re-invent DesktopX really not necessary (although I can see the draw to XAML) instead get some coders to go build anything that they/the community can think of, and some artists to make them look pretty. We've been hearing how powerful DesktopX is for years, and I'm pretty sure we all believe it, but powerful to who? I don't think your average skinner has the knowledge to utilize a fraction of the power that DesktopX has. That isn't a flaw in the programmer, the software, or in the skinner. There has always been a gulf between coder, and skinner. The really functional objects/skins/programs often look crappy and the eyecandy is generally otherwise useless. This is something that everyone in the customizing community has seen over and over again throughout the years. The only thing that Konfaulator did was take a limited program, and put it in a room with coders and artists. Had Stardock gotten TheSkinsFactory to help their script guys make 50 or so DesktopX objects this whole story would have turned out a lot differently.
Now don't get me wrong. I am definitely not faulting Stardock. You took a very community approach as you have done in the past, but the community didn't in the end show the versatility of the program. Konfabulator took a marketting approach and got the market, but if you look at the stuff that is being created with Konfabulator now (by the users), it's getting repetitious, and the quality of the art isn't the original polished stuff. In a year you'll see that the original widgets are the only ones still with big downloads.
DesktopX doesn't need to be reinvented. It only needs to take off the glasses, and let the hair down so everyone can see what a beauty it really is. Incorporate the ability to use XAML in there, and then when Vista launches throw up a couple dozen Beautiful XAML Objects/gadjets and present them with fireworks and ballons to the media with a DesktopX4 site. Everyone will Be talking about this Amazing new Program called DesktopX and how they wish it would have been around in the Windows XP days.
It'll be our little joke.

Reply #27 Thursday, November 24, 2005 10:51 AM
Immortal words..."May teh DX be with you." 
Reply #28 Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:53 PM
As a programmer, I'm an idiot. As a graphics guy, I'm okay. As a consumer, who's used DX off and on for the last several years, I've gotta say that I'm not finding DX desktops too useful these days, and the gadgets, while offering some appealing beta releases, make for a kind of interesting diversion, rather than a major achievement. They're fun to play with for a half an hour or so, but then they get forgotten, for the most part...
So what do I think DX is, and what do I think it COULD do? One thing, extremely well:
I think DX could take its' cue from the gaming community, and offer animated 3D, navigable desktop environments... not just tabs and meters. If anyone's seen the film "Disclosure", I'm thinking of something like "The Corridor". In other words, instead of clicking on a tabs to open folders or start programs, animated characters or icons could move through space to different paths in the navigation area, and pull drawers open, touch folders in the drawers to bring them up for selection, etc... I think you get the idea.
More than an animated graphics layout program, I think DX is capable of eventually bringing a desktop to life in some truly incredible ways. The programming seems to already be built into DX to be able to pull something like this off... even now. Yet I don't know of a single example of that being pushed to the limit in the ways I'm describing.
So where do we go from here? Well... if Stardock would really like DX to take off, maybe hiring out for one single animations expert do work up one demo would be a beginning... something that the rest of the DX community might be able to use as a template for further development.
Well... I hope that didn't sound too gruff. And I'm certainly not out to bash the fine developers who have given so much to the DX community over the years. Far from it... without their ingenuity, these levels of development wouldn't even have been thought of. There's loads of truly stunning graphics work out there for the downloading... thanks to the community. But now, maybe it's time we all thought about how possible it is, to give these objects some really arresting motion. Not just a pop-out via mouse clicks.
Bless You All.
Reply #29 Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:47 PM
First, redesign Desktop Gadgets to look more gui-riffic. Right now it looks like (no offense to who designed the GUI) a coder made it not a designer. This will make it more appealing to those shopping around for Gadgets. (To those who think it doesn't make a differce whether ths site looks better, I say humph and hog wash to you!)
Second, add a place where skinners and developers can talk to each other on Desktop Gadgets. Tie it into WinCustomize message forums.
Third, use Joe User as a platform for the gadget developers to write about pending projects, need for test subjects, and suggestions... now this can be done in the message forums too but considering that a blog post can be shown in the message forum... its just another way of having the creators of these things 'touch' the users and to add a personal touch... you will NEVER find this on Konfabulator's site.
I am telling you, you do these 3 things and 2 montsh later you will have more developers, more buyers and more people shouting out DesktopX as the best. I have NO DOUBTS in my mind about it.
As for DesktopX istelf, the more I think about it, the more I say this:
You have 3 DX 'platforms' - DX Run-Time, DX Developer and DX Enterprise.
- Desktop X Run Time is your major product. Sell it, make themes and widgets for it and DX will bump up in numbers just like that (where are you getting the people to make this stuff? Read DX Enterprise below). Once that happens, the skinners will want to skin it and the coders (who would have came onboard from the redesigned Desktop Gadgets website and from the tech/web design schools) will want to code it. PLEASE let DX RunTime be somewhat hackable IE make a simple object or something.
- Desktop X Developer is your 'educational edition' to what DX Enterprise does and what DX Pro does. Basically, a skinner or coder can make a theme or just widgets. Right now DX Pro allows you to make just widgets. With DX Developer you can make widgets and themes. While themes need DX RunTime to work (and widgets need DX RunTime to be on the system but not running), and gadgets don't.
Allow a person to buy a liscense and DX Developer can now make themes run without DX RunTime on the computer... the limitation is that the theme can only be so big in size and won't allow use of many options that you would be able to use if the person had DX Runtime on their system. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT if you want more buzz about DX, more people realizing that they can't live without it and so forth.
- DesktopX Enterprise should not be sold anymore. Keep it in house for development use and have contract employees on stand-by when companies need help to develope products (from DVD and Music openers to game creation). Eventually, there will be a need for you to sell it again after so many people would have played around with DX Developer. In the mean time use the contract employees to make widgets and themes for DX RunTime to get them into DX and when those companies start calling you will have an arsonal of people to help with the development of their product.
DX is the app of the future (even when it was at 1.0). With XAML it will be Web 2.0 ready. You can't beat that. Push DX Runtime of which will get people wanting to make stuff for it (DX Developer) and then after people see the power, all of a sudden, people want DX Enterprise.
A warning though...
Once it becomes popular, you will have to be ready or the onslaught of people asking about it and wanting to use it. While there is always a liklihood of people being turned away, you don't want a on-masse defection because they can't get the app or get developers.
Reply #30 Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:05 PM
Brad,
Not being a coder in any sense, and inexperienced in graphic arts (this one will change) - I have a limited amount of ideas.
It seems that the logical options are:
1 - Keep DesktopX in-house and bring in team members to create alternative GUI functions, and perhaps a few building programs that do not include the source code (compiled?) - again, not a coder so this may be off base.
2 - Provide an advanced DesktopX 4 program that has specific requirements, and let the community know well ahead of time what skills will definitely be needed to create and produce specific types of results. I think this would require Stardock to be clear and concise so that the end user is well prepared for the program.
3 - Go the other direction, and set up DesktopX with a large array of templates to design objects such as:
- Sidebars (wharfs)
- MediaPlayers
- LaunchBars
- Launch Menus
- Animated icon objects
This would/could include a large array of fairly advanced scripts.
I think this would appeal to the vast majority of customizers who have a reasonable belief that they could create the graphics to input into the templates > attach a script > test and adjust as necessary to create their own desktop creation. This would be more along the lines of SkinStudio, but the application would be seem to handle the things that are not "explorer shell" specific.
In any case - a lot of work if the full realization of DesktopX's potential is to be reached.
Reply #31 Friday, November 25, 2005 4:20 AM
Reply #32 Friday, November 25, 2005 6:40 PM
Darth Videlous
Reply #33 Friday, November 25, 2005 8:36 PM
1. PLEASE, make a 2-pane object browser already. There's no need to have all these seperate windows and sub-editors. Tree-view object-list on the left...property pages to the right. When a "root object" is selected it shows a custom config page (much like a widget's option box, or in the case of a widget[cause those should be listed too] the ACTUAL config page). Then each sub-object has the actual propeties of the object, just like the individual objects have now. One tab for position, one for actions, and one tab that is the actual script attached (dont need a whole seperate window to edit code!)
2. Obviously the most desirable outcome of DesktopX should be skin/object independance. I, as a user, should be able to easily make an object, and apply a skin to it. (and then also tweak it) What is mean is that DesktopX should allow for skins that only designate areas, borders, stretch-regions etc.
For example, a skinner would create a DesktopX-skin. The skin contains 3 different types of "window-borders" 10 different kinds of buttons, 3 different backgrounds, and 4 different text styles. Then I, can create my own object and easily apply someone's skin to it, without manually selecting from 35 different .png images. Additionally if I create a custom widget, a skinner could choose to "support" that widget-type.
3. It's extremely difficult to articulate all of the possibilities/problems I see with DesktopX....espexially in text. Honestly, I think the next step for DesktopX is to have a conference: round table discussions, brain storming, theory, etc. I think there's enough enthusiests to support such an endevour.
Reply #34 Saturday, November 26, 2005 1:13 AM
I've been an Object Desktop / WinCustomize subscriber for about 4 years now and as yet I still haven't seen a DesktopX theme that has really wow'ed me. Oh, some come very close (Oxidized Desktop) but it seems that 95% of what is available on WC in this category are barely more than glorified skins that don't do much more than what's available in WindowBlinds. What I'm looking for is a integrated desktop theme that I can run in a business environment (yes business people want customization too!) that:
A. Doesn't randomly start consuming massive amounts of CPU cycles
B. Doesn't lose/move ANYTHING from where I put it before I rebooted
C. Works at all resolutions (even switching between landscape and portrait mode on my TabletPC) and understands multiple displays (I run 3 on my desktop and it's office policy that no desktop have less than 2).
Bring on the stable sharp looking content that changes the UI in such a way that it make running my computer easier/faster while using my screen real estate wisely. Show everyone what DX can really do! My point is that DX first requires better content to drive the demand. That demand will drive more developers to DX and increase sales.
Let me also say that I understand that it's not always DX at fault for performance/UI breakage as some of the responsability lies with the theme/gadget/widget/whatever developers. But as an example I purchased Aquarium Desktop and had to request a refund as it was taking 99% of my cpu cyles. I was told it was because it didn't work well with my video card, which is an NVidia GeForce 4 MX4000. NVidia for goodness sake!
Anyway, I say follow the three pronged runtime/developer/enterprise approach but push for stability and content. Keep up the great work Brad & Co. and thank you for keep us informed and listening to our opinions!
-Z

Reply #35 Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:17 AM
| Honestly, I think the next step for DesktopX is to have a conference: round table discussions, brain storming, theory, etc. I think there's enough enthusiests to support such an endevour. |
Yes. But it would be helpful if not only "big" names sat on that table. There are others who work with DX on a regular basis who DON'T have dozens of widgets or themes here...
Reply #36 Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:34 PM
Its just still not user friendly, though made strides with DX3.
I also think Stardock has dropped the ball on trying to give examples of what can be done. Personally I don't want a bunch of little objects or widgets all over my desktop. Sure I could make them go front or back with the touch of a button, but if I want just a certain one I don't see how to do it.
I really think Stardock should use DX to create specialized desktops or themes such as the Natural Desktop and Aquarium. Or ones more geared towards office or play for example. I just don't see why most users would want to bother with DX as it stands.
WB is easy to see why people use it. Its easy to use and there is endless variety. I don't think you can compare DX though to WB to figure out what to do with it. DX should be more about productivity. Heck if it make use of WB skins for the widgets it creates, that would be amazing.
Reply #37 Sunday, November 27, 2005 4:44 AM
DX using WB-Skins : That would be a nice feature. Imagine a widget where You don't have to take care of the outer form but of content only.
Reply #38 Sunday, November 27, 2005 4:11 PM
1. Don't down yourselves or Desktop X. This is one of the most outstanding programs ever created!!!!!!! I use it all the time and I love it!!!! There are sooo many talented people out there in the Stardock community. I purchased DX about 2 1/2 yrs. ago and have been faithfully using and creating with it ever since!! The one thing that should be pointed out is to Hell with what the markets are "going" to due with DX. This program is the most user friendly and well publicized programs available out on the market.
2. Just because you don't see all the awesome things that some people do with it does'nt mean that they are not or will not be using your software. I personally love taking all the "un-functional" desktops and recreating them with my own talents and making them functional for me. I don't repost them because I feel it could be insulting to the original designers....that and I don't want to go through the hassle of getting permissions. And then not to mention that all of the Stardock suite looks just as awesome (soon to puchased by me.....maybe(it just depends on the "future" of DX)).
3. Who cares if the commercial market might come out with something else that's "better looking or more functional or what ever the case maybe", The fact is that Stardock has done one thing that no-one else has and that is to combine all visual softwares and xml and java and all computer languages into one design standard! That alone separates you from the other markets.
I do agree with some of the other posters that an orientation of what the DX is capable of would be nice. And maybe offering some wanna be(including myself) designers that don't know all these programs used for designing a chance to learn those programs and see where there skills can take them.
If you take DX away from us though you may be closing the door that is currently standing wide open to your financial future!!! And then my question to you also is it really about the money? I seem to notice the trend with this site is to make the community happy by giving them the chance to use their talents.
Abraham Lincoln:"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time."
In Conclusion: You are pleasing most of the people right now!! Don't disappoint ALL of us faithful DX users!!!!!!!
Sincerely,
Jonathan
Reply #39 Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:11 PM
| 2. Just because you don't see all the awesome things that some people do with it does'nt mean that they are not or will not be using your software. I personally love taking all the "un-functional" desktops and recreating them with my own talents and making them functional for me. I don't repost them because I feel it could be insulting to the original designers....that and I don't want to go through the hassle of getting permissions. And then not to mention that all of the Stardock suite looks just as awesome (soon to puchased by me.....maybe(it just depends on the "future" of DX)). |
I completely agree with this. Just because people dont upload thousands of objects, doesnt mean that end-users dont use it. I have many little objects that do things "just for me". THey aren't pretty, and the functionality of most of them wouldnt be useful to everyone (even if I *could* explain what they do properly).
Just because I have made several templates in Word and Excel doesnt mean I ever bothered to try to get them onto a website. Thousands of people make word documents every day that the online world never sees.
Reply #40 Tuesday, November 29, 2005 7:05 AM
The key is making this easy and flexible. If a developer is creating reusable code for themself or others then we need a simple syntax for the variables and a GUI for the "non-script-savvy" develop to use them.
For example, I have various reusable weather/news code. For weather a developer needs to be able to see what functions are exposed and then use them easily along with "template objects".
For example, for a weather location a developer needs to be able to simply add a "location" edit box or preference. They don't want to have to worry about weather it is a ZIP, or a city/country combination. They simply need to be able to stick a "location" and "get weather" object in their widget and have it work.
We could then create a simple tutorial to show how this can be used in practice.
Brad/Alberto, if you want me to work through this concept as an example of how it could work then let me know.
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Reply #21 Wednesday, November 23, 2005 6:47 AM
I say that is true. I try work-arounds when it comes to that though...
Anyway, I thought about it some more and I do think having 2 different DX's works best; a DX run-time only and a DX developer tool.
DX Run-Time will have all sort of stuff made by Stardock and skinners who use DX Developer. This way it is custermer focused and them the skinners fwill want the DX developer tool to make the skins.... if I am not mistaken, it is sort of set up that way now.
I say:
Sell the DX RunTime (smaller foot print, easier configuraton and so forth) for a little money... make it a little bit hackable (you can do some stuff without the DX Developer tool) and done.
The Developer tool... instead of being 300 dollars, or 69 dollars, make it 49... maybe 39. Why? Becuase if no one is developing anything with it, then selling it on the level of Photoshop CS or Micromedia Flash won't help. It needs to get out there to become something that people use. Once it seems people are using is... BAM! Put it at a normal price (Basiclally, pull an XBOX... sold at a loss to get a foot hold in the market... you got to get in to show people what it is worth first).
As for DX Entrprise... keep it internal until there seems to be a craving or it. If someone wants to use DX at that level, then liscence it.