Bad Idea
Be Google not Commit Cursor!
Wednesday, November 9, 2005 by killbush1984 | Discussion: WinCustomize Site Issues
I that what they are doing to wincustomize.com is bad business. What they are talking about with increasing adds for new users is dumb because it will wreck the trust they have with the general public. Nobody is going to use this site if they think it isn't safe for their computer, and bypassing add-blocking programs makes people think spyware; this will discourage people from using the site and finding out what great products you have. When you look at what internet companies do well and which companies fail or are marginalized you will see that the companies people trust not use spyware or have excessive advertizement such as google, download.com and firefox are successful when companies that have excessive advertizing and/or spyware disappear like Commit Cursor. You have some great free/shareware products and I am surprised that they are not more widely used. This Web site definitely has the potential to become the next download.com for computer customizing if it remains as it is, with a few adds and great content. What this Web site really needs is more visibility; advertize on other sites, try to get your name out there, make it embarrassing for people to use the plain windows desktop. This type of thing starts slowly, but you need to give people time to see how cool your stuff is and come to trust that you don't have spyware. Many of the most successful companies on the internet have had to wait years to get to where they are, follow the example of google, firefox, etc. The companies that have been patient with people and have given people time to come to trust them such as google and firefox have been rewarded when the companies that have been impatient and have overrun their sites with advertizing before they let people get to know and trust them like commit cursor have failed. Please for your own sake don't implement these policies, just be patient and you will be rewarded.
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artweasloh
Reply #2 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 2:09 AM
Reply #2 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 2:09 AM
You have made a very good point. I do agree that ads bypassing blockers is a no no no (in my opinion). It does create an impression that spyware or other threats are bundled with it. 
Starkers' POV should be considered.
Starkers' POV should be considered.
scorpio-logic
Reply #3 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 2:20 AM
Reply #3 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 2:20 AM
There are methods other than spyware and adware that are availble to WC site. I'm sure that the idea is not to "bypass" by embedding spyware, they don't want to know what you are doing elsewhere. And adware is not that bad, a lot of freeware comes with a share of adware. What is probably being considered is more use of javascript advertising, which most people who surf the net allow java to run because it would be pretty dang boring and bland if they didn't. One should not assume that WC is going to do something to intentionally placing adverse mechanisms into their website.
I hate it when people get all twisted out of shape before thinking. Try being a happy camper, you'll live a longer life. Happy skinning!
I hate it when people get all twisted out of shape before thinking. Try being a happy camper, you'll live a longer life. Happy skinning!
Cyberworld
Reply #4 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 5:51 AM
Reply #4 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 5:51 AM
It's a pretty good statement,but i don't think people here at WC aim to add spyware or adware. Adwares are programs that pop-up advertises and stuff. Those things have no place here. The adds Brad is talking i suppose are those that are already imbedded to the site and propably WC non-subs will see more in the future,which is also a valid statement too. But i do agree that WC really needs to be advertised to more sites...can't they just ask MS for a collab?
But i do agree that WC really needs to be advertised to more sites...can't they just ask MS for a collab?
Jafo
Reply #5 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 6:50 AM
Reply #5 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 6:50 AM
Wincustomize.com is owned by a Company [Stardock] which is essentially almost the only company to make a commercial success from Skinning and its associated programs/systems. If not the only, they were definitely the first and therefore longest-lasting....[not quite your 19 years of life...but a fair slice of it].
This has not been from good luck but rather from good sense/direction. Any supposed 'bad moves/ideas' supposedly pertaining to the site's current intended direction are very likely ill-founded.
As for company 'patience' with people.....it's very likely Stardock actually predates both 'Firefox' and 'Google'.
Your 'concerns' are probably spurred by the download cap you may just have reached, rather than any genuine business accumen...
kith
Reply #7 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:00 AM
Reply #7 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:00 AM
Who really cares what the general public thinks about this site. Customers are not really affected by any ads or junk so what is the problem?
Gregory2001
Reply #8 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:28 AM
Reply #8 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:28 AM
Bad business? Who is more successful than Wincustomize? "People" don't think like this. You do. There should be ads. Buy a subscription. There is no spyware. Not more widely used? Where have you been? Starts slowly? Obviously, a newbie.
Lantec
Reply #9 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:37 AM
Reply #9 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:37 AM
Your examples are not consistent with your statements. Both google and download.com have LOADS of advertising that add blockers wiil not filter. Firefox on the other hand is open source software. This is a commercial software companies site.
What you say has a small measure of truth but has been widely debated here for several months. According to the owner the site has to purposes. One is to provide a place for their paying CUSTOMER to access content and the general public to "see" what it's all about. Two is about community. Specifically the skinning/customization community. You can get here both ways, as a customer or as a paying member of the community. It's your choice.
As far as I'm concerned, I believe the new policies are MORE THAN generous toward the non-paying public. I advocated shareware that was time limited with verifiable email addy registration to obtain.
What you say has a small measure of truth but has been widely debated here for several months. According to the owner the site has to purposes. One is to provide a place for their paying CUSTOMER to access content and the general public to "see" what it's all about. Two is about community. Specifically the skinning/customization community. You can get here both ways, as a customer or as a paying member of the community. It's your choice.
As far as I'm concerned, I believe the new policies are MORE THAN generous toward the non-paying public. I advocated shareware that was time limited with verifiable email addy registration to obtain.
starkers
Reply #10 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 9:54 AM
Stardock/Wincustomize does.....subscribers and customers were once just the general public, also. And if it's important to Stardock, then it is important to all who cherish this site and feel they belong here as community members.....important to all the would be customers who would like to subscribe but are turned away by such ignorance. In that context, Sir kith, we all lose something, so hopefully, we're not all tarred with the same brush.
Not every visitor is a freeloader who contributes nothing. Some have a genuine interest in what's on offer, and to treat them with such arrogance and contempt is detrimental to the community as a whole. I support the idea of restricting downloads to non-subscribers, perhaps even some ads (closely monitored for spyware/malware, etc), but not an arrogance that can, and does lead to accusations of snobbery and elitism, etc.
Reply #10 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 9:54 AM
| Who really cares what the general public thinks about this site. |
Stardock/Wincustomize does.....subscribers and customers were once just the general public, also. And if it's important to Stardock, then it is important to all who cherish this site and feel they belong here as community members.....important to all the would be customers who would like to subscribe but are turned away by such ignorance. In that context, Sir kith, we all lose something, so hopefully, we're not all tarred with the same brush.
Not every visitor is a freeloader who contributes nothing. Some have a genuine interest in what's on offer, and to treat them with such arrogance and contempt is detrimental to the community as a whole. I support the idea of restricting downloads to non-subscribers, perhaps even some ads (closely monitored for spyware/malware, etc), but not an arrogance that can, and does lead to accusations of snobbery and elitism, etc.
Studibaker
Reply #12 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 10:19 AM
Reply #12 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 10:19 AM
Stardock are only doing what they have to do to keep this site up and running.Its a great site and a show case for all the people who contribute to this site.WC is a large site and has a large traffic volume they also need the funds to run servers and back ups...running and upkeep of servers isnt cheap for a site as big as WC.If they have to have adverts on the site to keep it up and running then so be it.If you dont want the ads then subscribe and enjoy all the benifits that go with being a subscriber.I will be getting myself a subscription shortly only because i know i will be supporting a great site and be a part of a very talented community.
killbush1984
Reply #13 Friday, November 11, 2005 1:20 PM
Reply #13 Friday, November 11, 2005 1:20 PM
Everybody is so worried about making life miserable for the "freeloaders" without recognizing that every new customer starts as without having bought anything and so the computer will treat them as a "freeloader". Many people won't download anything from a site that they think might have spyware whether or not it does. I mentioned those sites not because they are advertizing free but because they are some of the most successful websites on the internet. The question is far less wether or not your site has spyware but wether or not your prospective customers think it does.
starkers
Reply #14 Friday, November 11, 2005 2:15 PM
This is not so....nobody is trying to make anything miserable for anyone.
Reply #14 Friday, November 11, 2005 2:15 PM
| Everybody is so worried about making life miserable for the "freeloaders" |
This is not so....nobody is trying to make anything miserable for anyone.
killbush1984
Reply #15 Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:09 AM
Reply #15 Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:09 AM
Making life miserable for freeloaders is exactly what these new policies are designed to do, but I never said that it was out of malice. People want to make life miserable for freeloaders to force them to spend money on the site instead of just using it.
If this site does not show anyone more adds then google or download.com on a bad day I have no concerns. My concern is about excessive advertizing discouraging new customers.
What about charging 1-5$ per premium skin or other item depending on the item? That could greatly increase revenue because a lot of people who don't want to pay 20$-50$'s at one time wouldn't hesitate to spend 3$'s on a skin and that can add up very quickly. Maybe even make these premium skins enable features usually disabled on unregistered shareware programs, for example if you buy a WindowBlinds skin and you have an unregistered version of WindowBlinds it would skin scroll bars and other things that the unregistered version usually doesn't skin (it seems only fair if you pay for the skin, and it will encourage people to buy skins).
How many freeloaders are students? Maybe a special student rate might not be a bad idea and could help the freeloader problem.
If this site does not show anyone more adds then google or download.com on a bad day I have no concerns. My concern is about excessive advertizing discouraging new customers.
What about charging 1-5$ per premium skin or other item depending on the item? That could greatly increase revenue because a lot of people who don't want to pay 20$-50$'s at one time wouldn't hesitate to spend 3$'s on a skin and that can add up very quickly. Maybe even make these premium skins enable features usually disabled on unregistered shareware programs, for example if you buy a WindowBlinds skin and you have an unregistered version of WindowBlinds it would skin scroll bars and other things that the unregistered version usually doesn't skin (it seems only fair if you pay for the skin, and it will encourage people to buy skins).
How many freeloaders are students? Maybe a special student rate might not be a bad idea and could help the freeloader problem.
starkers
Reply #16 Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:51 AM
Again not so......the owners of Stardock are not that petty. Stardock made a business decision for the prolonged future of the site, nothing more, nothing less. When the subscription drive failed to reach the mark, advertising was implemented to help pay for the bandwidth and operational costs, etc....thus keeping the site alive for subscribers and non-subscribers alike. Seems fair to me
Reply #16 Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:51 AM
| Making life miserable for freeloaders is exactly what these new policies are designed to do, but I never said that it was out of malice. |
Again not so......the owners of Stardock are not that petty. Stardock made a business decision for the prolonged future of the site, nothing more, nothing less. When the subscription drive failed to reach the mark, advertising was implemented to help pay for the bandwidth and operational costs, etc....thus keeping the site alive for subscribers and non-subscribers alike. Seems fair to me
Jafo
Reply #17 Saturday, November 12, 2005 7:40 AM
Reply #17 Saturday, November 12, 2005 7:40 AM
| Making life miserable for freeloaders is exactly what these new policies are designed to do, |
Not quite accurate. What these policies are designed to do is help make Wincustomize.com pay its way and be self-sufficient. At the moment it's a 'money pit', not a 'cash cow'.
As I mentioned earlier, hitting the download cap may spur you to comment...but it's actually intended to spur you to help contribute to the financial cost of running the site. This isn't about paying for premium skins...it's about paying for all the content which incurs a cost by its hosting....
joetheblow
Reply #18 Saturday, November 12, 2005 8:28 AM
Reply #18 Saturday, November 12, 2005 8:28 AM
I sorry but I don't quite get this thread.
The new policies won't do anything to stop WinCustomize from being as big as it is.
Having more people downloading stuff isn't the problem, the cost of running the site is the issue.
All the new layers of user types and the redesign are to STOP the bleeding the site does in money. What it seems to be said in the beginning of this thread is that it is ok for Wincustomize to bleed out money and it should in fact advertise MORE to bring even more people here to download stuff.
WinCustomize becoming a subscriber site with Object Desktop customers as well as specific custormers who buy specific programs having access to skins is great. Allowing those who want to join the community freely to also add content (and thereby becoming full members) is great. Revenue Sharing is great. The 'freeloaders' should see just enough to want more (and I hope that Frogboy and gang design how the unsigned user gets to see what is so cool about WinCustomize, otherwise then it WOULD be harder to get people to see and understand what skinning is about). Then if they want more, they can be easily redirected to other sites (although those other sites can be pretty sucky and IN FACT have those spyware and adware programs advertised on there site to an extent that is not very... for a lack of a better word... pleasing)
I personally think the new WinCustomize will bring MORE people into it and those people will be more respectful of what it takes to be a skinner as well as what skinning is. With sites like the NY Times and others going with a quasi-subscription based site and succeeding, I think it is ok for WinCustomize to use that strategy as well. Advertising on works but so far. I do agree that in advertising dollars WinCustomize is worth more than it gets, but it still wouldn't pay any where near an exceptable level to run the site.
The new policies won't do anything to stop WinCustomize from being as big as it is.
Having more people downloading stuff isn't the problem, the cost of running the site is the issue.
All the new layers of user types and the redesign are to STOP the bleeding the site does in money. What it seems to be said in the beginning of this thread is that it is ok for Wincustomize to bleed out money and it should in fact advertise MORE to bring even more people here to download stuff.
WinCustomize becoming a subscriber site with Object Desktop customers as well as specific custormers who buy specific programs having access to skins is great. Allowing those who want to join the community freely to also add content (and thereby becoming full members) is great. Revenue Sharing is great. The 'freeloaders' should see just enough to want more (and I hope that Frogboy and gang design how the unsigned user gets to see what is so cool about WinCustomize, otherwise then it WOULD be harder to get people to see and understand what skinning is about). Then if they want more, they can be easily redirected to other sites (although those other sites can be pretty sucky and IN FACT have those spyware and adware programs advertised on there site to an extent that is not very... for a lack of a better word... pleasing)
I personally think the new WinCustomize will bring MORE people into it and those people will be more respectful of what it takes to be a skinner as well as what skinning is. With sites like the NY Times and others going with a quasi-subscription based site and succeeding, I think it is ok for WinCustomize to use that strategy as well. Advertising on works but so far. I do agree that in advertising dollars WinCustomize is worth more than it gets, but it still wouldn't pay any where near an exceptable level to run the site.
killbush1984
Reply #19 Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:59 PM
Reply #19 Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:59 PM
The idea of having people pay for skins was an idea of another way to raise money for the site. It somebody who is hesitant about spending a lot of money at once on the site buys a 3$ skin twice a month then they end up spending about 70$ a year on the site, the same amount that they would spend buying ObjectDesktop and a subscription. It could raise a lot of money for your site. Maybe level 4 users should get a discount on these items and level 5 get them free but level 1,2&3 have to full price. I don't completely disagree on your idea of putting a time limit on programs and I think that might be a better way to raise revenue than flooding the site with advertizing. The only thing I have suggested so far for my own benefit was having a student price.
Jafo
Reply #20 Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:24 PM
Reply #20 Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:24 PM
Again, putting a 'fee' on some of the skins won't cover the cost of leaving the bulk of the works freely downloadable...as it's a reality of nature that people will 'take' the freebies instead. The economic model would demand that all downloads of content attracted a financial contribution...in one form or another.
Think of it as a car-yard.....you cannot sell Rollers but give away the Hondas for free. All that will do is mean everyone is driving Hondas...and you're flat broke.
The advertising is not just 'revenue', but also an incentive to become a paying member and bypass it's 'nuisance value'.
The course of action/change proposed is quite sound, and not the result of rash or poor planning.
'IF' it's found to be less than perfect, result-wise, it can be amended/revised....
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Reply #1 Wednesday, November 9, 2005 1:58 AM
Obviously, Wincustomize has to be able to give assurances that advertising content on the site contains NO spyware/ malware, etc, and to make provisos with the relevant companies that any breaches of this policy will result in the immediate removal of their ads. I'm sure, however, that Brad and his colleagues have considered all this, and will take the necessary steps to protect WC visitors, as well as their reputations and the sites best interests.