Too little too late in New Orleans
Bush's zero tolerance policy
Thursday, September 1, 2005 by NetBadger | Discussion: US Domestic
I haven't posted any political blogs to this point, even though I feel strongly about what is going on. I don't think this administration really believes in free speech. If you critisize policies, the administration, or the actions of this government, you are branded as un-american and probably end up on some government watch list. This being said, I saw something on CNN today that made me so angry I couldn't keep quiet any more.
I am watching scenes of the people gathered around the Superdome, where people were told to go. There are people dying there with no help from our government. An old woman in a wheelchair dead with a blanket drapped over her, a man going into a seziure and dying, a baby unconcious in her mother's arms dying of thirst. Now I'm hearing about many dead bodies inside the Superdome. The fact that this is happening in America is hard to believe. This is where they were told to go and now the government is just letting them die.
I've heard Bush's "zero tolerance" policy. I've heard cabinet level people say there is no reason for any looting. They quote how much water and food is being sent to New Orleans, but the fact is it isn't getting to the people who need it. The statement was made, "There are ways to do things, and looting isn't one of them." Let me ask you the reader, if you or your family had not eaten for two or three days, the government has given you no help, would you go in and steal water and food? This is a matter of survival.
Of course there are the idiots taking TVs, jewelry, and abusing the situation. I don't think they'll by eating or drinking what they stole, but who knows they may be able to trade for things to keep them alive. I read about a bank president who was in a hotel with no food or water. He admitted to going into a convenience store and taking food and drinks. He said I would have been glad to pay for it, but no one was there to pay. He said I hadn't eaten for two days and it was a matter of staying alive. Under this government's no tolerance policy, he is a criminal. There are no exceptions.
In this sort of catastrophe, who cares about material things. Thousands upon thousands of people are just trying to stay alive. The idiots who are shooting at rescue workers should be shot on sight. But worrying about looters should be the last priority of the authorities in New Orleans.
It would be nice to belive that everybody would just work together for the greater good. But when it comes to keeping your family alive, any normal human would do almost anything to get them what they need to survive.
It would be great if everybody had the money to evacuate. If everybody had a car, the ability to pay for hotel rooms. If the elderly and disabled were able to walk or drive out, but with the poverty level of the New Orleans area it just couldn't happen.
I guess I'm through. I just had to vent. I'm disabled and stayed in the Daytona area through four hurricanes. Nothing near as bad as Katrina. But at one point the roof blew off the apartment above mine, and water poured through the ceiling. I lived in the apartment for a month as repairs were made. I empathize with those who were not able to evacuate, and this just made me angry.
I am watching scenes of the people gathered around the Superdome, where people were told to go. There are people dying there with no help from our government. An old woman in a wheelchair dead with a blanket drapped over her, a man going into a seziure and dying, a baby unconcious in her mother's arms dying of thirst. Now I'm hearing about many dead bodies inside the Superdome. The fact that this is happening in America is hard to believe. This is where they were told to go and now the government is just letting them die.
I've heard Bush's "zero tolerance" policy. I've heard cabinet level people say there is no reason for any looting. They quote how much water and food is being sent to New Orleans, but the fact is it isn't getting to the people who need it. The statement was made, "There are ways to do things, and looting isn't one of them." Let me ask you the reader, if you or your family had not eaten for two or three days, the government has given you no help, would you go in and steal water and food? This is a matter of survival.
Of course there are the idiots taking TVs, jewelry, and abusing the situation. I don't think they'll by eating or drinking what they stole, but who knows they may be able to trade for things to keep them alive. I read about a bank president who was in a hotel with no food or water. He admitted to going into a convenience store and taking food and drinks. He said I would have been glad to pay for it, but no one was there to pay. He said I hadn't eaten for two days and it was a matter of staying alive. Under this government's no tolerance policy, he is a criminal. There are no exceptions.
In this sort of catastrophe, who cares about material things. Thousands upon thousands of people are just trying to stay alive. The idiots who are shooting at rescue workers should be shot on sight. But worrying about looters should be the last priority of the authorities in New Orleans.
It would be nice to belive that everybody would just work together for the greater good. But when it comes to keeping your family alive, any normal human would do almost anything to get them what they need to survive.
It would be great if everybody had the money to evacuate. If everybody had a car, the ability to pay for hotel rooms. If the elderly and disabled were able to walk or drive out, but with the poverty level of the New Orleans area it just couldn't happen.
I guess I'm through. I just had to vent. I'm disabled and stayed in the Daytona area through four hurricanes. Nothing near as bad as Katrina. But at one point the roof blew off the apartment above mine, and water poured through the ceiling. I lived in the apartment for a month as repairs were made. I empathize with those who were not able to evacuate, and this just made me angry.
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Gideon MacLeish
Reply #2 Thursday, September 1, 2005 2:03 PM
Reply #2 Thursday, September 1, 2005 2:03 PM
OK, you're missing a LOT of points here. First, there is MUCH food being shipped. Much of it is stalled because (Hello?) the ROADS ARE FLOODED!
Second, I see you wrote this on Sept 1, almost 24 hours after it was announced that the Superdome refugees are being removed to the ASTRODOME in Houston, because the Superdome is fast becoming uninhabitable.
Third, I see you've fallen into the typical trap of expecting the government as giant babysitter to protect us from all ills. Should we abandon all of those in Biloxi and rural Mississippi because New Orleans receives more media attention?
The FACT is that Katrina hit with a ferocity that, frankly, wasn't expected except as a worst case scenario and that we don't have the manpower to adequately handle all things at once. Sure, we have unemployed men and women who would probably jump at the chance to gain temporary work assisting these individuals, but we have no way to mobilize them, plus there is the added concern that PAID help will require setting up a structure by which to PAY them, and voluntary labor would require additional resources of food and housing in a region already desperately short on both. Everything we can do to make things better will take TIME.
Rather than casting blame, your time and energy would be better served on speculating ways that you can help with this tragedy.
COL Gene
Reply #3 Thursday, September 1, 2005 4:47 PM
Reply #3 Thursday, September 1, 2005 4:47 PM
The day after the storm, when it became clear the size of the problem, Bush should have acted to send the Active military which is the ONLY agency that can deal with the security, medical, supply and transportation needs of this storm. Meetings at the White House and TV statements do not get the job done! It is hard to believe this is taking place in America!
drmiler
Reply #4 Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:38 PM
Get a clue will ya? And do some reading! While you're at it find something else to bash on.
First off, just what do you call 30,000 troops in New Orleans. Plus all the helos and C 130's? And 5 million MRE's? Along with FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers.
Secondly, The first line of defence should be state and local government NOT the feds.
Reply #4 Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:38 PM
| e day after the storm, when it became clear the size of the problem, Bush should have acted to send the Active military which is the ONLY agency that can deal with the security, medical, supply and transportation needs of this storm. Meetings at the White House and TV statements do not get the job done! It is hard to believe this is taking place in America! |
Get a clue will ya? And do some reading! While you're at it find something else to bash on.
First off, just what do you call 30,000 troops in New Orleans. Plus all the helos and C 130's? And 5 million MRE's? Along with FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers.
Secondly, The first line of defence should be state and local government NOT the feds.
COL Gene
Reply #5 Friday, September 2, 2005 7:11 AM
Reply #5 Friday, September 2, 2005 7:11 AM
Guess what? The national guard and FEMA have failed! The Guard are civilians and were cought in the same problem as everyone else. How do you get the guard menbers from the devistation to their units which were also impacted. If Bush had used the Active Military, they could have been in place the next day. Anyone who believes the response of our government was correct needs to look at the pictures from the area 5 days after the storm! The Governor of Louisiana taday she asked Bush for "ALL AVAILABLE FEDERAL HELP ON TUESDAY" They are still not in place and are just starting to appear! GREAT JOB, MR. PRESIDENT!
dharmagrl
Reply #6 Friday, September 2, 2005 7:40 AM
Where would you have him send them from???? I'm here to tell you we simply don't have the people to send! The military has a mission to complete here adn overseas, and we don't have enough people to man that mission as it is....without mobilizing people to go to help in N.O.
What have YOU done, ColGene? Have you got off your arese and done anything? Or are you content to play armchair quarterback and tell people what the guv'ment should and shouldn't do and blame Bush for the whole shebang?
Reply #6 Friday, September 2, 2005 7:40 AM
| Bush should have acted to send the Active military |
Where would you have him send them from???? I'm here to tell you we simply don't have the people to send! The military has a mission to complete here adn overseas, and we don't have enough people to man that mission as it is....without mobilizing people to go to help in N.O.
What have YOU done, ColGene? Have you got off your arese and done anything? Or are you content to play armchair quarterback and tell people what the guv'ment should and shouldn't do and blame Bush for the whole shebang?
COL Gene
Reply #7 Friday, September 2, 2005 8:01 AM
Reply #7 Friday, September 2, 2005 8:01 AM
The 82nd Airborne for example. There are 100,000's of thousands of Army, Marine, Navy and Air Force personnel on active duty is states all over the country. The fact is that the first team ( Pres Bush) is ineffective as usual. Make all the excuses you want. The fact is the response of the Federal Govenment was poor. We knew this storm was comming. Why did Bush not preposition the Active Military to move just as soon as the storm allowed?
Chaos Manager
Reply #8 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:11 AM
Reply #8 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:11 AM
Here's a thought. And something that doesn't come up very often. If the military (active duty) were supposed "do something" as COL Gene says, how does that get around the fact that the State Legislature in LA has to official request assistance from the federal government for defence against "domestic Violence"? Last I checked, the legislature in LA is still able to meet, so the governor's request for aid is invalid (according to Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution and my interpretation thereof).
Now, if it's deemed that the gentlemen (and ladies, mustn't forget them) of the Louisiana State Legislature can't meet, then the fine lady that currently occupies the LA Governor's mansion can make the request.
Another point - any movement of NGB troops across state lines (including humanitarian aid) has to be approved by the Federal Government ('cause they then are acting in a Federal capacity, not a STATE capacity). So? The Feds have responded.
Now, if it's deemed that the gentlemen (and ladies, mustn't forget them) of the Louisiana State Legislature can't meet, then the fine lady that currently occupies the LA Governor's mansion can make the request.
Another point - any movement of NGB troops across state lines (including humanitarian aid) has to be approved by the Federal Government ('cause they then are acting in a Federal capacity, not a STATE capacity). So? The Feds have responded.
drmiler
Reply #9 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:17 AM
First off oh clueless one mobilization of the national guard is done by the AIR NATIONAL GUARD, not the US military. Also you seemed to have missed the main point there poindexter. The FIRST line of defence is STATE AND LOCAL not the feds. I also notice that you did not address what I posted before?
Care to try?
Reply #9 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:17 AM
Guess what? The national guard and FEMA have failed! The Guard are civilians and were cought in the same problem as everyone else. How do you get the guard menbers from the devistation to their units which were also impacted. If Bush had used the Active Military, they could have been in place the next day. Anyone who believes the response of our government was correct needs to look at the pictures from the area 5 days after the storm! The Governor of Louisiana taday she asked Bush for "ALL AVAILABLE FEDERAL HELP ON TUESDAY" They are still not in place and are just starting to appear! GREAT JOB, MR. PRESIDENT! |
First off oh clueless one mobilization of the national guard is done by the AIR NATIONAL GUARD, not the US military. Also you seemed to have missed the main point there poindexter. The FIRST line of defence is STATE AND LOCAL not the feds. I also notice that you did not address what I posted before?
| First off, just what do you call 30,000 federal troops on the ground in New Orleans? Plus all the helos and C 130's? And 5 million MRE's? Along with FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers. |
Care to try?
COL Gene
Reply #10 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:32 AM
Reply #10 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:32 AM
The President has the authority to declare a national emergency that allows him to federalize the National Guard and use active military. ANY American that believes the response meets what is needed is NOT looking at what is taking place. This situation was envisioned as the number one problem from a storm. We knew the storm was comming. From the first day after the storm it was clear State and local resources were not enough to handle the needs! Most of the State and local resources were ineffective because of the storm including the police and the Guard!
dharmagrl
Reply #11 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:47 AM
What part of there aren't any active duty military going spare don't you get? Do you think that it's just a bottomless pit of personnel?
Again, I ask: what have YOU done?
Reply #11 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:47 AM
| The President has the authority to declare a national emergency that allows him to federalize the National Guard and use active military. |
What part of there aren't any active duty military going spare don't you get? Do you think that it's just a bottomless pit of personnel?
Again, I ask: what have YOU done?
dabe
Reply #12 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:53 AM
Bingo! They're all fighting a criminal war in iraq. go figure.
Reply #12 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:53 AM
| What part of there aren't any active duty military going spare don't you get? Do you think that it's just a bottomless pit of personnel? |
Bingo! They're all fighting a criminal war in iraq. go figure.
dabe
Reply #13 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:54 AM
Reply #13 Friday, September 2, 2005 9:54 AM
It's amazing that we have this "desire" to fix the iraqis problems, but have nothing left for ourselves. We must look so pathetic on the international stage. Not exactly the picture of a strong nation.
ParaTed2k
Reply #14 Friday, September 2, 2005 11:27 AM
Reply #14 Friday, September 2, 2005 11:27 AM
The definition of a Disaster is an Emergency situation that overwhelms the infrastructure already in place. No matter how big the disaster area, or how hard it was hit, if the Emergency Management Offices activate the Emergency plan and the response and recovery is successful, it wasn't a disaster.
It takes around 72 hours for a complete assessment of a disaster scene and implementation of a disaster response. Most of that first 72 hours is spent evacuating people to shelters and searching out survivors. Very little in the way of recovery is possible, or should even be expected.
I haven't seen the Emergency Management Protocols, so I can't speak to how complete they were, or at where they were in mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery, but obviously they were not prepared for a Katrina level disaster... but then again, that is why it is a disaster instead of merely an emergency.
A major designated shelter being damaged, no apparent plan for evacuation of people without cars, too many people who had the means not evacuating when the order came, no apparent plan by business owners to secure their inventories, people shooting at rescue workers, police officers not willing to do their jobs, or just plain turning in their badges... and many more things show some major holes in the emergency plan.
Now, instead of working the problem, officials are choosing to play childish blame games. No one should be fingerpointing at this point... everyone should be asking themselves what they can do to help.
Another problem is, people are already expecting to see recovery when the area is still busy trying to move forward with the Response phase. Not one dime or asset should be squandered on rebuilding yet... all assets should be put into search & rescue, reestablishing law and order and completing the evacuation (which includes running the shelters). Also, everyone has to remember that it won't be easy for anyone affected.
Too little too late? YES! But guess what, that is exactly what seperates a disaster from an emergency.
It takes around 72 hours for a complete assessment of a disaster scene and implementation of a disaster response. Most of that first 72 hours is spent evacuating people to shelters and searching out survivors. Very little in the way of recovery is possible, or should even be expected.
I haven't seen the Emergency Management Protocols, so I can't speak to how complete they were, or at where they were in mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery, but obviously they were not prepared for a Katrina level disaster... but then again, that is why it is a disaster instead of merely an emergency.
A major designated shelter being damaged, no apparent plan for evacuation of people without cars, too many people who had the means not evacuating when the order came, no apparent plan by business owners to secure their inventories, people shooting at rescue workers, police officers not willing to do their jobs, or just plain turning in their badges... and many more things show some major holes in the emergency plan.
Now, instead of working the problem, officials are choosing to play childish blame games. No one should be fingerpointing at this point... everyone should be asking themselves what they can do to help.
Another problem is, people are already expecting to see recovery when the area is still busy trying to move forward with the Response phase. Not one dime or asset should be squandered on rebuilding yet... all assets should be put into search & rescue, reestablishing law and order and completing the evacuation (which includes running the shelters). Also, everyone has to remember that it won't be easy for anyone affected.
Too little too late? YES! But guess what, that is exactly what seperates a disaster from an emergency.
COL Gene
Reply #15 Friday, September 2, 2005 11:44 AM
Reply #15 Friday, September 2, 2005 11:44 AM
If we had moved military assets when we knew the storm was comming we could have had MASH units, MP's Supply and the manpower needed the day after the storm in that area. We could have had ships moving behind the storm to provide emergency medical, supply and evac. All it took was a President that was effective not someone that is always looking for a photo op! We knew this was a big powerful storm days before it hit. We also knew the potential danger in that area and did nothing.
Now we will need the Billions we have spent in Iraq to rebuild that area. It is time to provide the needed revenue by restoring tax rates on the upper income Americans. It will not come from donations, George!
Now we will need the Billions we have spent in Iraq to rebuild that area. It is time to provide the needed revenue by restoring tax rates on the upper income Americans. It will not come from donations, George!
ParaTed2k
Reply #16 Friday, September 2, 2005 1:09 PM
Reply #16 Friday, September 2, 2005 1:09 PM
COLON GENE FARTS AGAIN!!!
IDIOT!! National Guard assets cannot CANNOT be used until a disaster has been declared, the governor mobilizes the in state units and if needed requests National Guard assets from other states.
Federal Troops CANNOT be used until the Governor requests federal assistance.
You blow hot air out of your 4th point of contact when you are clueless to anything but your infantile hatred for Bush. You have declared the National Guard a failure when their part of the mission has just began. Yes, there have been failures in the system, and yes, they need to be addressed, but those failures were at the local level, not the federal level. Once again you show that micromanagement is the only leadership style you understand. What a poor shadow that casts on you.
GET OFF YOUR ANTI BUSH TOILET!!!!!
I guess your own stupidity is Bush's fault too!!!!
IDIOT!! National Guard assets cannot CANNOT be used until a disaster has been declared, the governor mobilizes the in state units and if needed requests National Guard assets from other states.
Federal Troops CANNOT be used until the Governor requests federal assistance.
You blow hot air out of your 4th point of contact when you are clueless to anything but your infantile hatred for Bush. You have declared the National Guard a failure when their part of the mission has just began. Yes, there have been failures in the system, and yes, they need to be addressed, but those failures were at the local level, not the federal level. Once again you show that micromanagement is the only leadership style you understand. What a poor shadow that casts on you.
GET OFF YOUR ANTI BUSH TOILET!!!!!
I guess your own stupidity is Bush's fault too!!!!
ParaTed2k
Reply #17 Friday, September 2, 2005 2:43 PM
Reply #17 Friday, September 2, 2005 2:43 PM
What I'm waiting for next is the complaints about how much MREs suck, or that the food that does get delivered is cold... Blah blah blah.
NetBadger
Reply #18 Friday, September 2, 2005 4:36 PM
Reply #18 Friday, September 2, 2005 4:36 PM
I want to clear up an error in my original post. I was talking about the incidents happening at the Superdome, when it was actually the convention center in New Orleans.
Well, I've calmed down a bit. I'm still heart-broken over the gross failure on so many levels of the relief effort. But, we are seeing some help starting to reach the people that need it. I don't want to get into the name calling, or baiting that I see on many of the blogs. I was just angry and frustrated and looking for a way to vent.
I hear the "Too Little, Too Late" tag being used a lot on the news now. I think all of us on this board have a tendency to to generalize about groups to easily. Not all of the refugees were looters, not all of the looters shot at at those trying to help, not all of any group there fit into a neat little descriptive box. There are many things wrong in New Orleans on what the people stuck there have done. There are many things wrong on how the local, state, and federal government have responded to the catastrophe. I think over time, some of the most hearting stories will come from how people helped each other. The news industry's tendency towards sensationalizing things has overshadowed many of those types of stories.
The bottom line of my post was... if you go four days without food and water, normally good people will do desperate things to survive. It does not justify violence or lawlessness, it only explains it to a degree. Most people will do anything to survive.
Well, I've calmed down a bit. I'm still heart-broken over the gross failure on so many levels of the relief effort. But, we are seeing some help starting to reach the people that need it. I don't want to get into the name calling, or baiting that I see on many of the blogs. I was just angry and frustrated and looking for a way to vent.
I hear the "Too Little, Too Late" tag being used a lot on the news now. I think all of us on this board have a tendency to to generalize about groups to easily. Not all of the refugees were looters, not all of the looters shot at at those trying to help, not all of any group there fit into a neat little descriptive box. There are many things wrong in New Orleans on what the people stuck there have done. There are many things wrong on how the local, state, and federal government have responded to the catastrophe. I think over time, some of the most hearting stories will come from how people helped each other. The news industry's tendency towards sensationalizing things has overshadowed many of those types of stories.
The bottom line of my post was... if you go four days without food and water, normally good people will do desperate things to survive. It does not justify violence or lawlessness, it only explains it to a degree. Most people will do anything to survive.
shadesofgrey
Reply #19 Friday, September 2, 2005 6:17 PM
Not that I really want to jump into this fight--but some people are being deployed. I know someone in the Navy and he got the call this morning. On Sunday, he leaves for NO for up to six months.
Reply #19 Friday, September 2, 2005 6:17 PM
| The President has the authority to declare a national emergency that allows him to federalize the National Guard and use active military. What part of there aren't any active duty military going spare don't you get? Do you think that it's just a bottomless pit of personnel? Again, I ask: what have YOU done? |
Not that I really want to jump into this fight--but some people are being deployed. I know someone in the Navy and he got the call this morning. On Sunday, he leaves for NO for up to six months.
NetBadger
Reply #20 Friday, September 2, 2005 8:07 PM
Reply #20 Friday, September 2, 2005 8:07 PM
Shadesofgrey....
I have done nothing but give blood. It is all that I can do. What have you done? I wish that I could do more, but my financial situation doesn't allow for it. I'm not asking for any sympathy. Those impacted by the storm need it far more than I.
I have numerous health problems. Even though I work a full time job at a major University, and have health insurance about 45% to 50% of my net income goes to doctors and for the 18 prescription medicines I need to live. I'm one of those who have to balance buying food versus buying medicine. I don't look to the government to bail me out. I don't get any state or federal assistance, and I don't ask for it.
Do you feel better now that you asked twice and got an answer?
I have done nothing but give blood. It is all that I can do. What have you done? I wish that I could do more, but my financial situation doesn't allow for it. I'm not asking for any sympathy. Those impacted by the storm need it far more than I.
I have numerous health problems. Even though I work a full time job at a major University, and have health insurance about 45% to 50% of my net income goes to doctors and for the 18 prescription medicines I need to live. I'm one of those who have to balance buying food versus buying medicine. I don't look to the government to bail me out. I don't get any state or federal assistance, and I don't ask for it.
Do you feel better now that you asked twice and got an answer?
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Reply #1 Thursday, September 1, 2005 1:04 PM