Playing hardball with Internet griefers

Tips for community owners for dealing with net thugs

Saturday, May 7, 2005 by Draginol | Discussion: Living in Cyberspace

Every once in awhile you'll hear about a beloved website whose host has taken it down out of frustration with having to deal with Internet thugs. Internet thugs are, thankfully, not very common, but there are enough out there that they can wreck the experience in trying to admin a website.

So what is an Internet thug? An Internet thug is basically a "griefer". Someone who gets off on trying to anger and upset other people. They do this in a variety of ways and the most common way is to take advantages of loopholes or gaps in a website's forum system.

For example, when we designed the blog community JoeUser.com, we allow users to "blacklist" people. So if someone is causing them anguish, they can make them go away.  Now, the person can still try (with a different IP address) to come back as an anonymous user but the user can then make their blogs require a UserID to post and at that point, the griefer is usually stopped in their tracks.

But many sites don't have that level of protection. Some news systems only support anonymous commenting or no commenting at all (at which case, much of the enjoyment is taken away if no one can even interact).  On such sites, the thugs can go wild.

Other sites have more protections but "moderators", wizops, and other sub-administrators don't have complete access to them. That can enable a thug to target a particular moderator to try to get rid of them. And most volunteers have a lower threshold of pain before they'll quit.

For me, when faced with a "flight or fight" instinct I am inclined to go with the latter.  I've been running on-line communities for twenty years (literally, 1985 with Commodore 64 based BBSes on up).  I've seen these guys and they typically are serial griefers -- they get off on it so they keep doing it over and over again.  I've found that the only way to deal with them is use all the admin powers at my disposal to make it painful for them as well.  Most admins I've met tend not to want to play dirty or take the gloves off. The griefers count on that and hence can play their sadistic little games with impunity.

But like I said, I play rough. If someone's griefing me, I'll get nasty.  Instead of just removing their post, I'll edit their post.  And if that doesn't discourage them, I'll eventually start posting their IP address.  And if that doesn't work, there is a lot more uglier stuff (particularly if the griefer doesn't live in the US) that I can do.  But usually post editing is enough. 

For example, if a griefer writes: "You're a pathetic asshat, (user's real name when possible) . You should stick with having sex with your (insert relative) ."  I will change it to say (with their real name as the responder) "I wish I was a girl. Sometimes, when no one is around, I like to wear a dress. Not having any genitalia makes me confused sometimes about what I should do and that's why I act out. Can you forgive me?"

Your ability to deal with griefers is only limited by your own conscience, your affiliation with the site (if you're a moderator and not an admin, you should be talking to the site owner before you start wreaking havoc, the site owner might be better equipped to deal with the griefer), and of course your real world resources.  In my case, we have lots of lawyers so any would-be blow hard making legal threats can learn the hard way just how nasty the US legal system can be, especially to someone skirting the boundaries of cyber-terrorism.  Which also means you should keep a log of any posts that person has made for use as future evidence if necessary.

Griefers rarely get bored. They get off on trying to hurt other people. But they're usually stupid, lazy people who will take the path of least resistance. The best way to deal with them in my opinion is through discouragment. There's lots of potential targets for these losers, your best bet is to make yourself a less appealing target. And I do that by playing hardball with them.  It's not about revenge or getting them back or even justice.  It's purely about finding the lever that makes them go away when a simple ban just doesn't stick.

First Previous Page 2 of 4 Next Last
MasonM
Reply #21 Sunday, May 8, 2005 1:18 PM
No, that's an assgasket.
Double Zero
Reply #22 Sunday, May 8, 2005 2:25 PM
No, that's an assgasket


I know what those are!, those are what they put in public restrooms for placing on the seat before you sit..right?!!?..LoL


Thomassen - LMAO!..I have never heard that little "Jingle!"

Ah well, I suppose when all else fails, creative terminology takes the stage...

Carry on,
Zero.
Frightlever
Reply #23 Sunday, May 8, 2005 5:25 PM
I troll but I don't particularly grief. The essence of a troll is to start a forum topic or drop a comment into an existing thread which is purely to piss either somebody or everybody off. On a lot of forums the debate is so gutter level this is almost pointless. Here the community are such shrinking violets I just don't see the point. (Troll comment. See how that works? It's absolutely my opinion but I know it's going to get somebody's back up.) In the RW community I was raised in (Irish, Northern.) there is a good deal of aggressive verbal sparring (not to mention the other kind) and that's just amongst friends. Egos get deflated. The fawning that I see on here is honestly virtually incomprehensible to me. (see above but I just have no other way to describe a heap of comments congratulating one guy being childish to another guy who annoyed him. It's so school yard and all the Mod has done is the equivalent of telling a teacher. Meh, if it works it works so I suppose I have to agree it's a distasteful if practical solution. Very 1984 though.)

"Griefers rarely get bored. They get off on trying to hurt other people. But they're usually stupid, lazy people who will take the path of least resistance. The best way to deal with them in my opinion is through discouragment."

I've not really run across too many griefers on forum boards. I actually feel your definition of griefer may be more coloured by what you personally feel is acceptable behaviour particularly when people aren't doing what you want them to do. Persistent name calling or whatever, yeah it's griefing if it's not consensual but who's doing that? I troll some rough forums and reasoned vulgarity is the order of the day. You might be kidding yourself if you imagine these griefers are fuming with frustration because you've edited their posts though - you may well stop them posting but they've probably moved on feeling they've won an immoral victory because you had to take such extreme measures.

Fredrickson on the Blues News forums was a semi-legendary serial troll who went out of his way to post sometimes incomprehensibe comments and launch into surreal invective for no apparent reason. He had a real flair though, bordering on genius at times and I miss him (eventually one of the bans managed to stick).

"In my case, we have lots of lawyers so any would-be blow hard making legal threats can learn the hard way just how nasty the US legal system can be, especially to someone skirting the boundaries of cyber-terrorism. "

This bit just makes me feel sorry for you. Especially when it comes after this:

"And if that doesn't work, there is a lot more uglier stuff (particularly if the griefer doesn't live in the US) that I can do"

Make up your mind.

Hey whatever, it's your play pen.
Draginol
Reply #24 Sunday, May 8, 2005 9:54 PM

You might be kidding yourself if you imagine these griefers are fuming with frustration because you've edited their posts though - you may well stop them posting but they've probably moved on feeling they've won an immoral victory because you had to take such extreme measures

This assumes I care what trolls think. I don't.  As an admin, my goal is to make them stop, period.  If they get some bizarre hard on thinking that they've won a moral victory or something, then hey, that's good with me.

Hey whatever, it's your play pen.

Bingo.  That's the point.  Admins decide what the rules are. And they must be prepared to vigorously enforce them.  Admins have to be able to take a step back and treat the user as an object when they get out of line.  For instance your line about "That makes me feel sorry for you" doesn't matter to me because, ultimately, it doesn't really matter what you think. It only matters what you (or any user) does

The site owner ultimatley has to decide what type of site they want to run. Admins that get caught up in the delicacies of "free speech" and what not ultimately get burned.  I consider griefers to be pathetic. They're essentially parasites, a pest to be rooted out of a healthy community.  Inexperienced forum admins tend to get stuck in the niceties of "fairness" and let them drive away quality users.

Griefing isn't "Sparring". Perhaps to some 35 year old virgin living in momma's basement refuse it might. But to a normal adult, and that's the audience I cater to, having the first comment of every news item you write say "eat shit fuckwad" or something to that effect is not verbal sparring. It's just trash and I consider taking out the trash to be part of my job. 

-----
Reply #25 Sunday, May 8, 2005 10:32 PM
Draginol.....you are BRILLIANT! Never would have thought of some of the stuff you mentioned....Hahahahahaha, i'd love to see some of those griefers faces when the comeback to see how people reacted to their comment....
Bichur
Reply #26 Sunday, May 8, 2005 10:34 PM
This assumes I care what trolls think.


That's 3 you asshats!

Don't make me come over there.


On another note: Draginol, this is supposed to be a family site, if you can't find a way to verbalize a point without profanity - then please don't post.
Jafo
Reply #27 Sunday, May 8, 2005 11:11 PM

this is supposed to be a family site, if you can't find a way to verbalize a point without profanity - then please don't post.

Bichur .... it's pretty difficult to reference an example without its use.

The point would be lost if reworded to 'go away, little boy'...

Bichur
Reply #28 Sunday, May 8, 2005 11:30 PM
Jafo ... understood, however could it have not been exampled without using hardcore language - ie f word?

After all the point was made in his 1st example and the language was not bad.
-----
Reply #29 Monday, May 9, 2005 12:39 AM
Reply By: Bichur


--Understandable that this annoyed you [or whatever], but he is the admin., and yet you used 'asshats' so in a way you contradict what you say, so you are a hypocrit...hmmm? Ass, can be said to be profane, and used in 'asshat'
craeonics
Reply #30 Monday, May 9, 2005 6:41 AM
What the? Froggles, who are you quoting?
Draginol
Reply #31 Monday, May 9, 2005 8:20 AM

Bichur - see rule #1 - the admins make the rules. So if I want to say asshat or asswipe or whatever, I shall. And for the record, this is a PG-13 level site. The site even asks if you are over 13 when you create an account now.

Crae - for some reason, one of the comments doesn't show up on WC. It does on JU. https://www.joeuser.com/articleComments.asp?AID=74497

Bichur
Reply #32 Monday, May 9, 2005 9:06 AM
What the? Froggles, who are you quoting?


this in comment #25
"eat shit fuckwad"




Bichur - see rule #1 - the admins make the rules. So if I want to say asshat or asswipe or whatever, I shall. And for the record, this is a PG-13 level site.


Lowest mininum standards - the American way. I apologize Draginol, you're completely right. You're not required to exercise self control unless an Admin tells you to.

And it's #25 showing on WC not on JU
Jafo
Reply #33 Monday, May 9, 2005 9:37 AM

Lowest mininum standards - the American way. I apologize Draginol, you're completely right. You're not required to exercise self control unless an Admin tells you to.

Bichur ... Draginol IS an Admin.....

....or have I lost the plot here somewhere?

BTW....'Froggles' is a reference to 'Draginol'...

Jafo wears 'Admin' as a prefix so those new to the site know who they 'may' turn to for assistance, etc ..... others do not.  Maybe there's your problem...

 

Double Zero
Reply #34 Monday, May 9, 2005 9:38 AM
Lowest mininum standards - the American way. I apologize Draginol, you're completely right. You're not required to exercise self control unless an Admin tells you to


Bichur, im not agreeing or disagreeing with either side...But...If I am not mistaken "Draginol" *is an Admin...

Zero.
Bichur
Reply #35 Monday, May 9, 2005 9:45 AM
I see that now. It just doesn't change my point of view.

Nevermind & drop it.

I'll explain to my daughter why she can't hang with me when I browse this site.
Double Zero
Reply #36 Monday, May 9, 2005 10:05 AM
LoL...Australia must be a really looooong way from the Message board, it must have taken 5 minutes longer for Jafo's post to appear 1 minute before mine...


I'll explain to my daughter why she can't hang with me when I browse this site.


That is unfortunate... My daughter isnt a problem..LoL, she's 20 and has heard it all..
It doesnt go "Un-edited" often at all Bichur.... Actually this is a first as far as I have seen... I doubt that it will be a "trend" because most people feel as you I think..
Hang in there!

Zero.
Zoomba
Reply #37 Monday, May 9, 2005 10:26 AM
Draginol isn't just an admin, he's THE admin. Also, I don't think I've ever seen any mention that foul language was prohibited on this site unless it's being used to attack another user or their work (in the case of WC articles). The Web is NOT a child-friendly place, never has been and probably never will be, in fact most sites make no claims that they have family friendly content.

Just look at what this site offers... Windows Customization stuff (software, skins etc...) This isn't really "little kid" stuff here. If you're coming to this via JoeUser (like I am) then it's all billed as a blog site with no guarantee of content and only the most basic of behavior rules (foul language not being prohibited).

Remember it's never the responsibility of the site to make content family friendly unless the site is focused on that. If it's not stated clearly on the site, then it's an unreasonable expectation on your part.

In general I disagree with using profanity to express a point as there's almost always a better way to put things, but in cases like this where it is an example to back-up the argument, it's necessary to the point.
rabidrobot
Reply #38 Monday, May 9, 2005 12:30 PM
Helix the II said:
What is the problem with the language, anyway? A word is a word is a word.. I don't get the objection to profanity. It could be alot worse. Some people aren't happy unless they're insulted with flowery praise, but that's just mental masturbation and pure bullshit.


What's wrong with mental masturbation?

But seriously, I agree with you. Profanity is just some words some people think should be taboo. Reminded of the woman on an installment of Penn & Teller's Bullshit! who felt it was wrong to reference religion when uttering an oath. She felt "goddamn" was grounds for public stoning, but didn't see any problem with "Holy cow!"

As to the subject at hand, I thought I had seen at least one of the threads on another site that may have encouraged Draginol to write this article, but now that I think about it, the griefer in that case _was_ the admin. So maybe I don't know what he speaks of specifically....

But, I agree in essence, that an admin should use all the tools at his disposal to maintain the integrity of his/her site and the discussion. I'm not sure how effective some of these methods may be, but I also cannot get myself into the mindset of a griefer to begin with. That is, I don't know what would cause someone to stalk another's forum posts with the intent of replying to each one with name calling and profanity, so I also can't tell if such a person would be deterred by having their post edited. Obviously they aren't embarassed by having their screenname attached to the original insipid post...

in any case, don't let the bastards grind you down, D!
Double Zero
Reply #39 Monday, May 9, 2005 1:01 PM
What is the problem with the language, anyway? A word is a word is a word.. I don't get the objection to profanity. It could be alot worse


Well..One creative term that I thought was rather humorus was posted by Jafo and I will use it here..

Profanity is a form of expression, but I think there is a place for it and there are places it just is unacceptible and is simply rude...
Being a tradesman myself I often spew forth language befitting the lowest form of "Knuckledraggers" on the planet, thats mostly because I am surrounded with that element on the jobsites and I can be clearly understood without any doubt what so ever..LoL...
I keep myself in check when I am out in public "arena's" and in general, anywhere other than where I am among friends and or worst enemies...
There are many ways to communicate with people, you do not have to show off your expertise using profanity to do so..
I find it much more impressive to witness someone speaking their true mind over a heated issue without ever using a single profane word, that alone boasts intelligence/style and class ,,

It boils down to this simply..any "Knuckle Dragger" can run off at the mouth with constant strings of profanity to express theirselves, it takes really no intelligence at all and is just not impressive..
Not to mention it shows an extreme lack of respect for anyone other than themselves, and even thats questionable..

Profanity used in improper areas is usually done by very immature people, ignorant or simply people that could not give 2 S***ts about you or anyone else..

There are places it is acceptible and places it is not..it isnt to tough to discern those places from one another if you have any clue at all...

I hope you get the "Objection" now..if not..Oh Well...LoL..
Zero.
Frogboy
Reply #40 Monday, May 9, 2005 3:38 PM

The word "FUCK" is allowed in PG-13 movies. This site is a PG-13 site. It's all in the context.  I'm not calling people "Fuckwad", I'm quoting the use of it.  This isn't a kiddie site.

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