TGT Soft sues Stardock (just in time for the holidays :( )

Friday, December 19, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

Well it looks like the folks at TGT Soft are in the holiday spirit (not!).  On Wednesday Stardock received a lawsuit from TGT Soft that was filed in Louisiana.

 

The lawsuit essentially asks for a declaration that TGT Soft can use Stardock’s IconPackager theme format without liability. 

 

This incident began last month with the first beta of Style XP 2.0 which had a button labeled “Add an Icon Pack” which when pressed opened a dialog in which they could load a .iptheme or .ip file (IconPackager files). We were fairly annoyed that 1) They would try to compete with IconPackager/Object Desktop by using IconPackager files (remember, they sell this thing), 2) That they didn’t even give us credit for our icon packaging format but instead referred to them as “icon packs” as if .ipthemes were some generic term created by the ASCII group or something and 3) They didn’t even create icon packages but rather planned to just exploit the popularity of IconPackager which we’ve worked hard and long on for many years to make popular.

 

We informed them that this was unacceptable and we would defend our rights either technically or legally if necessary. If they want to compete with Object Desktop or IconPackager they would need to come up with their own format that they have to support and promote.  If they want to put out an icon changing program, that’s fine. But to copy our format and use it so that they can undercut the price of our software is unacceptable and we believe, illegal. 

 

In subsequent correspondence, we even offered to license them the use of our format for a modest royalty (remember, this isn’t a freeware program we’re talking about, they’re selling Style XP for $20 a pop). Their response was to reject that and file a lawsuit that seems to be designed to force us to let them use/convert our IconPackager theme format without any compensation. 

 

Apparently they would have it where we would be the ones to provide the software to create and support icon packages (which is where most of the development/marketing costs have come from) and they would just reap the benefits financially. Note that Style XP 2.0 currently does not seem to have the ability to actually create icon packages/sets. Only apply them.

 

They have subsequently come up with their own format (.iconset) but since they can’t actually create .iconset files from their program, they rely on a new program they’ve made, IconTranslate, which seems to exist primarily to convert IconPackager themes to their “.IconSet” format. And once installed turns on a feature in Style XP to read IconPackager themes directly from within their program.

 

Picture this scenario then: Someone buys Style XP instead of IconPackager or Object Desktop costing us income. Then their customers would come to WinCustomize.com to download icon packages to use with their program, costing us more money since we pay for the bandwidth.  We pay the costs, they make the money, and to top it off, they’re suing us, costing us legal expenses.

 

To us, this situation is akin to someone asking a skinner to let them port their skin to a different platform and if the skinner says no then turning around and suing them to try to force the skinner to let them port their skin. Stardock fully intends to defend its intellectual property rights.  The implications if TGT Soft were to win are far reaching not just to Stardock but intellectual property holders everywhere including skin and theme authors.

 

We generally feel that people who create stuff should have a say over how that stuff is used. Stardock worked long and hard to make IconPackager a success. Its popularity is not due to marketing but due to the hard work over a long period of time (ex: making it possible to create and apply icons on Windows 95, Windows 95 + IE4, Windows 98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP).  Doing that was not easy as early IconPackager users can attest to. It was very hard to make IconPackager work reliably on the many different versions of Windows, different interactions with the OS and Internet Explorer, etc. But this was part of the effort necessary to make IconPackager successful and why it’s the most popular, by far, icon packaging technology available.  On top of that, Stardock has paid many thousands of dollars over the years to create icon packages to help promote our program and format (such as the recently released Christmas Time IconPackager theme).

 

For someone to simply come along and try to cash in on our hard work without any compensation strikes us as both morally and legally wrong.  But to actually sue us (and they are also suing me personally, not just Stardock and I can say, on a personal note, getting a lawsuit that targets me personally a week before Christmas is pretty crummy) is just incredible.

 

Like I said, we don’t have a problem with them changing icons or making icon sets. What features they add to their program are their business. But to try to profit from our hard work over many years is wrong and to file a lawsuit against us (and me personally) to try to force us to let them use our intellectual property goes beyond words.

 

So that’s where we’re at.  We will defend our rights because the implications it would have on all our software as well as on the community. If people who create things don’t get to have a say on how it’s used, it would likely have a chilling effect on our community – whether you’re a skin author, an icon artist, a theme author, or a software developer.

 

IconPackager’s page is: https://www.stardock.com/products/iconpackager/

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Essencay
Reply #101 Saturday, December 20, 2003 6:28 AM
Frogboy does own Stardock.


Brad... and I wouldn't talk about it any more either.


I'm one for stating my case in a forum to hear public opinion....but, if the first quote is true, I think that if I was Frogboy, I would stick to business as usual and not be involved in conversation about TGT Soft. There'll be time enough for that in Cajun Country.

Godspeed Brad
Doreen
Reply #102 Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:56 AM
Brad they are clearly trying to market on something that does not belong to them and in the end they will lose out so don't worry about it too much, some ppl get the pay back alil late but it usually "always" comes...
MarkMcQ
Reply #103 Saturday, December 20, 2003 11:03 AM

Still amuses me when I read "tgtsoft is the company that started the 3rd party visual styles craze with the first software and tools" on their site..........

 

Jesh66
Reply #104 Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:09 PM
To me it sounds like an act of desperation on their part. The only thing i'm confused about is your argument with the issue over users coming to get .ip packs and the cost of bandwidth. Because in essence converting the msstyles to windowblinds could be considered the same thing right? People would go download their skins and then convert them over to windowblinds. But i can see the difference that the everyday user won't be doing that i guess, where as the everyday user will download and convert icons.

I think their lawsuit to force you into giving up your rights to them is a sign of total desperation. Here is a company who talked major shit about how Stardock charged for themes and then 2 months later did the same thing. Go kick their ass in court. God i can't stand that company.
Istari
Reply #105 Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:32 PM
Jesh66: msstyles belongs to Microsoft, not TGT Soft. TGT Soft doesn't host msstyles. TGT Soft didn't create msstyles and probably legally shouldn't even be using them in the first place.

I think they're desperate too.

There's some crazy people on http://www.themexp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7594 who don't seem to get it at all.

This would be like someone taking all the wallpapers from Digital Blasphemy http://www.digitalblasphemy.com, converting all the .BMP to .JPG and then setting up a site selling the same wallpapers for $5 less per month, then suing Digital Blasphemy for not giving them permission, and then trying to argue that it is okay for them to use the wallpapers because they CONVERTED them.

There are only 2 major reasons to use one mass icon changing program over another. Price and available packages. IconPackager's got a truck load of icon packages because of the great support Stardock's provided over the years and helping get icon authors to use it. But that costs Stardock money which they make up by selling copies of IconPackager to end users. It just adds insult to injury that TGT Soft would sue Stardock. And is it me or does anyone else find it totally disgusting that at this point in time the only way for a TGT Soft user to add new icon packages to Style XP is to use an IconPackager section on some site like here?
Phew that was long!
Jesh66
Reply #106 Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:46 PM
well this could actually be the demise of TGT if Stardock wanted it to be. They could outspend TGT in legal fees in which case TGT would go broke. And when it comes down to it - it's always whoever has the most money wins. That and the fact that from what i've read TGT has zero grounds to sue. Wouldn't it be nice to watch TGT go down in flames as a result of their own stupidty?
Anthony R
Reply #107 Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:01 PM
Counter sue him personally for legal fees and punitive damages, so that if even if he folds, he still wont have a pot to (****) in for the next seven years. A business without lawsuits is like Saddam Hussein without brutality, it just happens.
Lastshot
Reply #108 Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:02 PM
ROFL Where the hell do these clowns come from stardock and Ip has been around for every it seems like and these yahoo's think they cant take a file system used for YEARS by stardock and Ip . to use in there shitty bloated software > . i really hope the judge throws the book at them for wasteing his or hers time ..
Jesh66
Reply #109 Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:19 PM
okay just IM'ed Santa and from what i hear, they are definitely getting coal in their stockings this year.
Jesh66
Reply #110 Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:25 PM
all kidding aside, i'd pull this thread. Bad publicity is still publicity so why introduce this company to anyone who may not have known about them?
Leo the Lion
Reply #111 Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:55 PM
We seem to have control of the neoweenies at the moment.....if anyone wants to check the discussion over there here's a link....has been quite lively as you would expect http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=16074&category=main#comments
i81b4u-uc
Reply #112 Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:55 PM
Ok, I've got to ask a question. Is there anyway that TGT Soft can use the porting of msstyles against Stardock? I went to the message board at themesxp and TGT was very limited as far as having any supporters at all. It's just interesting to figure out why they would think that this lawsuit would favor them at all.



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Aleatoric
Reply #113 Saturday, December 20, 2003 2:23 PM
I don't think TGT Soft can make any claim at all for teh msstyles format, as it is the format that Microsoft themselves provided for the three original themes.
IPlural
Reply #114 Saturday, December 20, 2003 3:20 PM
Nope, Stardock has a working relationship of some sorts *with* Microsoft through some channel. TGT just steals...
[Message Edited]
culverSE
Reply #115 Saturday, December 20, 2003 3:29 PM
I am ashamed to say I live in Louisiana. Hope Stardock kicks some @ss over this. I say countersue for all their worth.
WolfwoodX
Reply #116 Saturday, December 20, 2003 4:21 PM
I never made the connection that FrogBoy was Brad Wardell..
i81b4u-uc
Reply #117 Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:18 PM
all I can say is this is really really Sad



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kona0197
Reply #118 Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:49 PM
So let me ask you this Stardock, Frogboy.... if that isn't ok to convert how come its ok for you to have a program to convert msstyles to windowblinds format?
Same thing isn't it?
Oh.. and don't tell me its because msstyles are owned by Microsoft.... they haven't made any attempt to themes... yet a lot of artists here have.
And don't tell me its because of bandwidth... that a lot of people will go there to get the iptheme files... cause a lot of Stardock users come here to grab msstyles for conversion.


now that is funny.

(pasted from a exiled WC user posting at themexo.org)
IPlural
Reply #119 Saturday, December 20, 2003 5:50 PM
I never made the connection that FrogBoy was Brad Wardell..


dunno if that is a good thing or a bad thing?


For me, it proves out a feeling and thoughts I have held onto that there is a seperation of the two that most people either miss or ignore...

bakerstreet
Reply #120 Saturday, December 20, 2003 6:48 PM
Well, this is another good reason to stop anonymous downloads. If people coming to get .ipthemes had to register, and eventually subscribe here to get them, then at least they would be possible revenue.

Little consolation, but even if the lawsuit ends up being interpreted as the trash it is, I bet a "Independent" freeware converter will be released into the wild. The best thing Stardock could do, I think, is hash the .iptheme file and seal up the holes here so that people coming from there would eventually have to subscribe, or go to great pains to freeload. If it were backwards compatible and read the old style .iptheme files as well it wouldn't hurt any existing themes.

**

on a side note, I had no idea how huge the icon themes were. I was thinking that a good deal of the transfer here was the larger Windowblinds themes, but the average icon set seems to dwarf the average WB theme. Why are they so huge? I had to go through a few pages to find one that was a non-exploitive size to download to see the .iptheme file. I guess the transition from the old style icons to the new, more 'image-ish' has made a big difference.

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