This is seriously ridiculous. I just read this whole thing, and all I can say is I agree with Green Armani 100% and Apocalypse 67!

I must say treatment of artists here is the most RIDICULOUS thing I have EVER witnessed. The motto should be "If you like being treated condescendingly come to WC"
Over the months I have watched, citizens, artists ,viewers/users be treated poorly. They are spoken to in the most cruel of ways. I for one am disgusted and ashamed of some of which I have witnessed over the months.

I may not be a computer guru, or a graphics designer, but I know a thing or two about business,sales, and management. And I can say this, a site in order for it to truly prosper needs to learn a thing about 'service' because reality is WINCUSTOMIZE is offering a SERVICE and a Product. It is WC that needs to treat it's users/viewers and artists a certain 'proper' way because without it's subscribers and artists, There are no skins...or things to download, and no one to download them! NO BUSINESS regardless of the service or product they provide whether it be on the web our a live establishment can thrive without it's PATRONS! THAT IS REALITY! With the artisan that creates the product there is nothing to sell. But, NO ONE ever takes the time to make the customers nor the artist feel that way. Everyone here is on a high and mighty horse, trying to prove how much smarter and above the viewers/artists they are. And it's seriously out of control. This place loses artist after artist and has this mighty mentality of "Oh well, another will come along". Your sales may be fine now, but someday if this site continues this way it WON'T! I'm sure the WC Gods disagree though...just another melodramtic person speaking nonsense.

Do you want to hear the HILARIOUS thing??? SO MANY artists that have been here and have gone to DeviantArt have to come to find that place more friendly...less BS...and more pleasurable to be at. NOW that is HILARIOUS!DA of ALL PLACES???? DA has come to be a more civilized,friendly eviroment to people. That SAYS A LOT!

But that's ok, as it's been clearly displayed the mighty WC Gods don't care. They don't care who leaves, and they find NOTHING wrong with THEM. It's always the melodramatic artists, the ignorant users...NEVER THEM!

Bottome line... with moderation and WC and I KNOW I am NOT alone in this feeling.
If you suck up just enough you will get treated perty good and you DON'T have to be that good to get recognition...just suck up real nice and good. Don't disagree with the way the place is ran, don't disagree with an admin, don't show emotion, don't dispute anything....you WILL prosper. But if you dare have a brain and intelligence enough to know something is BS and say so then by the gods, you will NOT! And ever dare speak your mind in a way that is uncared for by the WC Gods...you'll get exiled. I'm sure this post won't be on long, and surely this will get me exiled...just watch!!

However in fairness I must note of the staff,the one person that has ALWAYS been kind,encouraging and patient in my experience has been BOXXI! He was always a sweetie and patient and I thank him for that. Thank you Boxxi. And Jafo has quite often shown on the threads a good deal of kindness and patience with folks and I'm quite sure it's been appreciated by all those he's aided.

#46 by Scribe Frogboy - 7/21/2003 9:51:44 AM Let me be clear:If no one ever submitted a wallpaper here ever again we would be perfectly happy about it. So if you don't like how we handle wallpapers, simply don't submit them. If you upload a wallpaper it may make it, it may not make it. We're not going to agonize over each wallpaper. It's just wallpaper. There are a gazillion sites that have wallpapers. Are we clear: We don't care if you guys submit wallpapers. Feel free to never ever submit anothre wallpaper ever again. As far as I'm concerned, the wallpaper section is a waste of space and bandwidth. We have it here as a convenience of users.

Forgive the wasted bandwith and your time, I'll remove my things I wouldn't want to waste anymore of it. I am saddened as I thought when I came here this was 'The Place' and I as many thought I would start with skins...and move up, but I guess not! And again as SO MANY I will stay at DA where people aren't reminded repeatedly that it doesn't matter if you stay or go, or what you think, like or don't like.

Those that can respect being treated this way, I wish you well and much happiness. I'm sad because there are some good people I've met here that will be missed and at the sametime grateful as I've made some friends here that I feel blessed for, but luckily we can all be found at the same place for sometime now. Bright Blessings to all.

I meant start with walls, and then skins.Pardon the typo.

You will find out soon that DA can be a very rough place sometimes, too.

Plus your work will be 'lost' amongst millions of other submissions, most of which will be crap.

That's a good way of putting things Fuzzy Logic.....................but I'd rather be at DA where this "crap" you talk about is not moderated by someone who thinks like you which see's a persons work as fecal matter, who might actual think they did a good job, and that's alllll that matters in the end doesn't it.

Lady Akasha.....

In reality, all submissions are appreciated, whether walls, complex skin suites, or simple tentative steps at one's first Beatnik skin.  There is a simple 'restriction' on the wallpaper section to limit its unchecked growth/expansion.

What most people will see here on the message board, however is the 'public face' of angst and dissent...of people with various concerns for the site and a yearning for its improvement in one form or another.

Usually that is either heated or confrontational in people's attempts to be heeded, but often is only the public perception of alleged 'wrongs', which often are dispelled in more private discussion/s.

What may be seen as a public 'failing' can also be reciprocally the very same impetus that has seen Admins/moderators give up in frustration....the old 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' quandary.

Sure, any 'community' has problems of its own, and Wincustomize.com is certainly no different from all the others.

However.

A long history of interaction with all of those other skinning and skin-related sites has shown that exactly none of them is totally devoid of some 'issue' or 'characteristic which is less than desirable'.

The price paid for relative success is the 'tall poppy syndrome' where some demand  a knee-capping [OK, mixed metaphor but you probably get what I mean].

Rather than listing other site's deficiencies, it's more appropriate to suggest listing attributes here....weighing pros and cons to determine worth.

The ultimate frustration is when effort is expended on the part of all those directly involved with the survival/maintenance of the site and the outcome is a public declaration of abject failure buoyed by a perception that there is some great exodus.

The only REAL exodus occurred within the skinning community when eFront destroyed skinz.org's reputation [at the time] when its [eFront] CEO was publicly on record for condoning the raping of a client.....[amongst other things].

Both the public and private response to anyone's determination to 'leave' is a simple 'don't'.  Very little will ever be achieved from without....far more can be achieved from within. 

The 'desire' to leave is the exact signal that you should stay....you see a need for improvement...a failing that needs attention.....contact an admin for serious input.....it's a better solution than the usual 'I'm leaving' thread that is jumped-upon by sympathisers and by the surly 'good riddance' brigade, ultimately leaving no option but to go.

Stay....and talk.  You know my addy...

 

Yes,please dont go Akasha.I enjoy seeing your work here and I cant get DA's site to load.The wall situation does need changing but we wont change it by leaving.No Rules has a very good idea for doing away with moderation,maybe we can convince them to consider it.Bad as I hate being rejected I dont want to see this site become another filled to the brim with every little scribble that someone wants to upload.I agree with you about Frogboys post tho,...that was pretty disheartening.If we stick around maybe we can change HIS mind on the subject.Stick around,..your way to talented to lose!

Here is a simple solution: Nuke the wallpaper section from wincustomize.com and create a new site just for wallpapers, something like wallcustomize.com. Just moderate it to keep the porn off of it.
And also, Frogboy , while I agree with your comment,but as you are one of the top authoratative figures here, you were completely out of line. Your comment probably just started a landslide that will hurt stardock in ways that you can't even imagine at the moment.
[Message Edited]

Phoon...to all intents and purposes, Frogboy IS Stardock.

This site exists largely due to his generosity towards the skinning community, providing for its [the site's] very existence.

I am sure if any potential existed for 'hurt' this was considered prior to comment....

"Wallcustomize.com" is a highly unlikely proposition, though 'other' alternatives/solutions are being proposed...

 

This site exists largely due to his generosity towards the skinning community,

Jafo ....
It is also a 'commercial' enterprise in that Stardock proggies are the core of site ... and I mean that in the sense of 'good business sense'... not as a putdown.

wombat....true, but as with several other companies involved in the 'industry', Stardock could rely wholly on those 'Public sites' to host skins and promote awareness of the 'product' but preferred to assist skinning's longevity and viability by creating a substantial presence which suports the other sites through shared traffic load, etc....

Look out John Howard and Simon Crean!

This site exists largely due to his generosity towards the skinning community, providing for its [the site's] very existence.

"

Stardock could rely wholly on those 'Public sites' to host skins and promote awareness of the 'product'

Please get real! He hosts these skins because they sell HIS product at a PROFIT, better than if they were hosted on a "public site. This site is part of the cost of doing business and is factored into the cost of all Stardock products. Frogboy is a BUSINESS MAN, NOT A PHILANTHROPIST.
I'm sure he feels he is making plenty of money from Stardock (which is great) to be able to ocassionally be rude to his customers and the artists who (for free) help him sell his products.
Think about it, If he had to pay every artist who makes a skin that helps sell his products, or if he had to make them all himself, i'm sure this site would not exist as it does!
If you look around there are many programs that are skinnable but since most of them have to pay for the skins, the numbers of those skins are quite limited.
Frogboy has some great products, but i believe he and some of his admins/moderators are being rude(and some down right nasty) to the people who support HIS pocketbook.
Go Figure.

OMG hashonboat has said it all...Been reading all this mess since day one and i agree 100% with Apo_67,GA,Lady...And now with hashonboat,He has said EVERYTHING THAT WAS NEEDED TO BE SAID ON THIS COMMENT...And like he said,If it wasn't for this wonderful designer,Skiners etc! That work so Hard for 'FREE' This site would not be here...

I just what to know if I have this all correct.
Anyone except the moderators can have a bad day and go off on people because something that was said was that "straw that broke the camels back" for them.
I am by no means saying that Frogboy may have not have meant to be so harsh "that would differently not be my place" but why is it that he is not aloud to go off on people himself.
I keep reading that people think that the admins and moderators should be more involved with the community. Then I hear there are too involved and try to run a dictatorship.
You cannot say that this site is not being moderated properly and at the same time state that is should not be moderated at all.
Comments made that people have to agree with the way things are run to get anywhere on this site is just plan wrong. Not agreeing with something does not mean having to smear it all over the message board for everyone to see. I myself believe that these things should be taken up in private.

#6 by Sir Green Armani - 7/26/2003 3:33:05 PM All hail Deviant Art Great community.........great artists..............great friends............NO MODERATORS!!!!! #8 by Madam Lady Akasha - 7/27/2003 2:23:16 AM Here Here Green Armani! Hail Deviant Art! FRIENDLY Community.......... Indeed GREAT Artists.....Great Friends INDEED.........AMEN TO NO MODERATORS....and art to your hearts content! Welcome to DA Apocalypse!!!!!!!!

Those comments sums up this whole thing for me. What I see is people not liking work being moderated, so instead of adjusting their talents they go somewhere where it will be accepted...good or bad. WC is second only to DA in terms of size, and they don't even have the 100,000,000,000 wallpapers and indy art stuff that DA has. This is JUST skins, not skins, walls, indy art, poetry, blah blah blah. So for a site that hosts JUST skins it seems to be doing DAMN WELL. Now here you guys are complaining that Frogboy doesn't like the customer. How about you think of it from their point of view rathter than your own. It cost's a lot of money to hold 3300+ wallpapers and then let however many people download them all for free. Being that the skins on this site do promote Stardock and their apps, ofcourse he's going to favor them. To him, wallpapers are here as a convienence thing for customers. It's like walking into a candy store and they have a bucket of bazooka gum for free, but then you walk in and complain that there's no cherry flavor gum! Get real people. I do not need WC for wallpapers, I find the vast majority of them suck anyways. You have thousands of other sites to get walls from, but not a single site other than WC will have better SKINS! That is why I am here.

[Message Edited]

but hashonboat has not said anything truthful in his post.  In fact, his last post is the most untruthful melodramatic pack of lies I've ever seen posted here. But if you feel that supports your own conclusions you must go with it. I do recomend you examine your motives and try to find what is really true at some point.

Bottom line, as a moderator I feel terribly insulted by comments like these. That however would not affect how I moderate walls or rate skins when I post them. I don't believe I've ever been rude to any of you and I certainly won't start being rude just because I've been accused of it by someone who's every statement is an absurd personal vendetta arising from what he felt was a bad rating given to one of his submissions.

As I watch threads like this (I try to stay out of these generally) I feel like I put an enormous amount of time and effort into this site for nothing. It's only when your work is appreciated or you feel it makes a difference that volunteer effort is worth the time. What if all the admins suddenly decided they would leave? At this point I really think this site would cease to exist. How proud of your selves would you be at that? Two million people who visit here would have a handful of disgruntled members to thank for that. Disgruntled members whose accusations grew to biblicaly out of context and absurd proportions to hide the pettiness of the original complaint, "my piece wasn't rated high enough".

If you think I'm a rude person, please tell me so to my face. If you think this site is a money-grubing contemptuous place why are you here? The fact is, this site costs Stardock tons of money. hashonboats claims are not only totally wrong but he has no knowledge of anything truthful about this site, why it's here, or how it works. He only has anger that his piece was rated too low.

Do what you will, but try to think about the karma of lying, even if it's just emotionally stimulated It hurts everyone.

Gad, what a thread this is turning into.
Let me rephrase my earlier comment:
Frogboy - being Stardock, really can't have the luxury of losing his cool on a public post, as it may (or may not) have a negative impact on the company. Now, that being said, I will say it bluntly for those that can't or shouldn't...
This site is to promote STARDOCK products. It is not about the skinners. It's not about me, it's not about you. It's about what are STARDOCK products are capable of doing. Our submissions are a perk. The admins have the right to run and moderate this site as they see fit, to promote the product which they make money from.
The wallpaper section is a perk. PERIOD.
Even though most of my submissions are wallpapers, and I used to get upset at the moderation, I wouldn't be upset in the least if walls were not a part of this site, since it seems to take away from the intent of the sites original intent in the first place.
For the DA enthusiasts, I for one thing all of your works are outstanding and my HD is blessed with many of your works, but stop bashing the admins here for trying to promote their own products.
OK, so that being said, I brace my own self for a bashing...

Out of 24 categories we post here, only 9 of them are Stardock products.

The admins don't make any money from this site, we work for free.

This site is ALL about the skinners and the work they create.

If this site is to promote Stardock products then so is skinz.org, skinbase, custo.org, etc.

Skin sites are extremely expensive to run. Our advantage is having some philanthropic money from a skinning company to help, but the site still needs to make it's own money to survive, thus the memberships, t-shirts, CD's etc.

All skinning sites have a common purpose and exist in the same community. It's all about skinning and sharing our work with the public.

All skinning sites have rules and some form of restrictions on the members. We try to be open to ideas and have quite often made improvements that arose from intelligent discussion about how we do things. We listen to and encourage members to give feedback and constructive ideas.

Just do away with the wallpaper section so that you won't have an uprising of those members, who are "expressing" their discontent.