The President Did it Again!
Thursday, June 19, 2003 by kona0197 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
This just makes me mad... I know they lie to us but this is going to far...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/19/politics/main559380.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/19/politics/main559380.shtml
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kona0197
Reply #22 Friday, June 20, 2003 1:48 PM
is isn't co2 that is the problem: it is carbon monoxide and that comes from US humans burning fossil feuls.
Reply #22 Friday, June 20, 2003 1:48 PM
| amount of CO2 |
is isn't co2 that is the problem: it is carbon monoxide and that comes from US humans burning fossil feuls.
kona0197
Reply #23 Friday, June 20, 2003 1:52 PM
Reply #23 Friday, June 20, 2003 1:52 PM
paxx: read post 17 again. thats where my power comes from , it better i pay extra for it.
paxx
Reply #24 Friday, June 20, 2003 3:54 PM
Reply #24 Friday, June 20, 2003 3:54 PM
Well, once you've stepped off the cliff, it's a little too late to try to come back.
jcg: it has nothing to do with progress. Progress would actually be to find effective alternative.
If I read an article telling me that McCain juice can cause brain damage to my kids, and another article that says that it's not true. You can bet I'll buy Oasis juice or another kind next time, whether I'm sure or not. I'm not going to take the chance.
We are talking about the possible end of humain life on this planet, should we play the guessing game?
Frogboy
Reply #25 Friday, June 20, 2003 4:25 PM
[Message Edited]
Reply #25 Friday, June 20, 2003 4:25 PM
|
is isn't co2 that is the problem: it is carbon monoxide and that comes from US humans burning fossil feuls |
It's not Carbon Monoxide. It's Carbon Dioxide that is the issue. If we were pumping mass amounts of CO into the atmosphere, global warming would be the least of our worries. 
[Message Edited]
Aleatoric
Reply #26 Friday, June 20, 2003 7:28 PM
Reply #26 Friday, June 20, 2003 7:28 PM
paxx -
While it could be considered a good idea to attempt to address the issue of global warming, as presented by the proponents of kyoto, there is no evidence that the proposed cure is or would be effective and would not be more harmful than what you're trying to cure. To use your example of the cliff, it would be like suggesting that you shoot yourself in the head in order to keep yourself from going over the edge.
Before we can effectively address the issue of possible global warming, we need to make certain that we clearly identify what is being caused by manmade events, and what is part of a natural cycle of climate change. And once we have actually identify the human component of the issue, we need to make sure that what we do will actually ameliorate the problem, without causing a greater one in its stead.
Additionally, any proper mechanism to address that human effect would have to be applied EQUALLY to every country and industry in the world, NO EXCEPTIONS. If the honest goal is to address human caused climactic change, any proposed solution MUST apply equally to all participants. Anything else is intellectual dishonesty.
You can make the argument that the US uses more energy than other countries, but there is also evidence that the US produces less net CO2 emmissions per joule than the developing countries that the proposed exceptions favor, primarily due to more efficient production and use, and also due to continued reforestation, which provides a carbon sink that absorbs much of the emitted CO2.
I firmly believe that there are human caused effects on our environment and climate, but most of the currently proposed cures are the environmental equivalent of prescribing chemotherapy to treat a cold.
[Message Edited]
While it could be considered a good idea to attempt to address the issue of global warming, as presented by the proponents of kyoto, there is no evidence that the proposed cure is or would be effective and would not be more harmful than what you're trying to cure. To use your example of the cliff, it would be like suggesting that you shoot yourself in the head in order to keep yourself from going over the edge.
Before we can effectively address the issue of possible global warming, we need to make certain that we clearly identify what is being caused by manmade events, and what is part of a natural cycle of climate change. And once we have actually identify the human component of the issue, we need to make sure that what we do will actually ameliorate the problem, without causing a greater one in its stead.
Additionally, any proper mechanism to address that human effect would have to be applied EQUALLY to every country and industry in the world, NO EXCEPTIONS. If the honest goal is to address human caused climactic change, any proposed solution MUST apply equally to all participants. Anything else is intellectual dishonesty.
You can make the argument that the US uses more energy than other countries, but there is also evidence that the US produces less net CO2 emmissions per joule than the developing countries that the proposed exceptions favor, primarily due to more efficient production and use, and also due to continued reforestation, which provides a carbon sink that absorbs much of the emitted CO2.
I firmly believe that there are human caused effects on our environment and climate, but most of the currently proposed cures are the environmental equivalent of prescribing chemotherapy to treat a cold.
[Message Edited]
Jafo
Reply #27 Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:05 AM
Reply #27 Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:05 AM
Anyone doubting the reality of 'Global Warming'....just drop on over to the good old A U of S......come on down to the driest continent on the planet....bask in the highest incidence of skin cancer on the planet....enjoy the greatest, most devastating drought in recorded history, toast your toes with the quarter year-long uncontrolled fires....watch as countless more endangered species fry....slake your thirst with the stage 2 water restrictions in the height of Winter......I love a sunburned country...etc....
jcg
Reply #28 Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:23 AM
Reply #28 Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:23 AM
Most people think history began the day they were born. Basing a claim of global climactic change on recent events (one or two hundred years) is irresponsible given the age of the earth.
Lockie56
Reply #29 Saturday, June 21, 2003 2:23 AM
Reply #29 Saturday, June 21, 2003 2:23 AM
This issue will always be hotly debated (pun intended), but the question I always ask when a "Scientific Study" is published proving that "Yes, humans are causing the problem" or "No, it's a natural cycle & humans are not having a big impact at all" is this: who is funding the research?
Lets face it, most if not all Scientific research has to derive funding from somewhere, and along with that funding you can guarantee that there is also going to be an agenda. So the research is slanted to the proving of a given agenda, not to the unbiased discovery of fact. The politicians do it, the greens do it, big business & the oil companies do it...all with their own barrow to push.
So who is right & who is wrong? Wouldn't have a clue, & I doubt that there ever will be a clear resolution until such time as someone invents a time machine so we can go back in time & record actual data, instead of the theories currently propounded.
Lets face it, most if not all Scientific research has to derive funding from somewhere, and along with that funding you can guarantee that there is also going to be an agenda. So the research is slanted to the proving of a given agenda, not to the unbiased discovery of fact. The politicians do it, the greens do it, big business & the oil companies do it...all with their own barrow to push.
So who is right & who is wrong? Wouldn't have a clue, & I doubt that there ever will be a clear resolution until such time as someone invents a time machine so we can go back in time & record actual data, instead of the theories currently propounded.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #30 Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:12 AM
Reply #30 Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:12 AM
If people wish to bury their heads in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist they are free to do so. Here are a few sites to read for those who would like to know more about global warming:-
http://www.climatehotmap.org/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html
http://www4.nas.edu/onpi/webextra.nsf/web/climate?OpenDocument
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/climate/
Governments, 'experts' and others can manipulate any data to suit their purpose. Nature does not recognise such manipulations. Nature follows it's own course.
I have been keeping weather records for 30 years. Average winter temperatures for the first 15 years of that follow closely the long term average (since 1850) for my area. Average winter temperatures for the last 15 years are 2°C warmer - a startling increase. Only last year we saw temperatures of 18°C in February - 12°C above normal. Remarkable. So are the frequent autumn storms we have now and the flooding which accompanies that. We now have long sunny dry warm summers - everyone here thinks that bit's great. Sad.
It's like the old saying: if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water it will jump out, put it in a cold pot and slowly turn the heat up the frog will cook. We have a lot of people stood ankle deep in warm water saying how great it feels and a little bit more heat wouldn't be a problem. Wake up...
http://www.climatehotmap.org/
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html
http://www4.nas.edu/onpi/webextra.nsf/web/climate?OpenDocument
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/climate/
Governments, 'experts' and others can manipulate any data to suit their purpose. Nature does not recognise such manipulations. Nature follows it's own course.
I have been keeping weather records for 30 years. Average winter temperatures for the first 15 years of that follow closely the long term average (since 1850) for my area. Average winter temperatures for the last 15 years are 2°C warmer - a startling increase. Only last year we saw temperatures of 18°C in February - 12°C above normal. Remarkable. So are the frequent autumn storms we have now and the flooding which accompanies that. We now have long sunny dry warm summers - everyone here thinks that bit's great. Sad.
It's like the old saying: if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water it will jump out, put it in a cold pot and slowly turn the heat up the frog will cook. We have a lot of people stood ankle deep in warm water saying how great it feels and a little bit more heat wouldn't be a problem. Wake up...
craeonics
Reply #31 Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:21 AM
Reply #31 Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:21 AM
Trouble with topics as such is that you can spin things in any direction you want. If someone quotes some argument in favour, another will refute it and quote a counter-argument.
Such are the ways of paradigm shifts. Compare it to the shift from flat world to round world, we are currently in the shift from "nature can cope with anything man tosses at it" (left over from the 19th century) to (I hope) "man must take care not to overstep the limits of what nature can handle".
Such are the ways of paradigm shifts. Compare it to the shift from flat world to round world, we are currently in the shift from "nature can cope with anything man tosses at it" (left over from the 19th century) to (I hope) "man must take care not to overstep the limits of what nature can handle".
Lockie56
Reply #32 Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:53 PM
Reply #32 Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:53 PM
I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand with regard to this issue, but with so many different arguments coming from all sides, I'm not prepared to cast a vote one way or the other. The only historically proven fact that we have available is that the earth has suffered massive climate changes during its time, and will continue to do so. To believe that what we experienced 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 50 years ago ad infinitum is the "norm" is to subscribe to idiocy. All we need is another large meteorite to impact tomorrow & it will be "Hellooo Iceage" all over again, or pehaps a huge volcanic eruption to plunge us into six years of darkness? The human race survived both previously, without technology to help them.
Chef Garry
Reply #33 Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:05 PM
I've read a number of sources that suggest bovine flatulance is by far a bigger problem than auto exaust.
Isn't that the basis of sound scientific discussion - first look for the hidden agenda.
I've read so much contradictory information on so many topics over the years I've ceased to take any of it too seriously. Especially this one. It's taken on all the aspects of a religious discussion. I have doubts about the objectivity of pretty much any view.
Reply #33 Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:05 PM
| it is carbon monoxide and that comes from US humans burning fossil feuls. |
I've read a number of sources that suggest bovine flatulance is by far a bigger problem than auto exaust.
| who is funding the research? |
Isn't that the basis of sound scientific discussion - first look for the hidden agenda.
I've read so much contradictory information on so many topics over the years I've ceased to take any of it too seriously. Especially this one. It's taken on all the aspects of a religious discussion. I have doubts about the objectivity of pretty much any view.
karmegeddon
Reply #35 Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:38 PM
I'm old enough to connect the dots and get the big picture. I was surprised to discover that we do get mature enough to figure it all out, but then it is too late, cuz noone listens to an older person for some odd reason.
But to the point here...
The media is responsible for pointing to stuff that is going on: "Hey, look over here at what this guy is doing!" No matter how true or how stetched out of shape the story is, I say to myself, "Okay, so this is what the media wants me to be thinking about. Hmmmmm, wonder what is going on in the shadows..."
Take bin Laden... here is this guy who is hiding and yet sends video tapes through hell and high water to make it to the international news. "Over here, everyone! It's me! It's all me! See me over here?!!"
And more generally, I think mankind is starting to rearrange the deck chairs on this sinking ship.
Once the ruling class was able to desensitize themselves to starvation caused by their policies, I would say that it is just a matter of time. Bono is correct, in my opinion, that we are choosing to let people die as long as they make some kind of payment on debt. The loan sharks gave out blank checks to whom ever they wanted to destroy and now most of the world is living below the breakeven point to sustain life.
It seems nothing will move them to ease up and at least see to it that everyone on earth gets something to eat every day. I mean, come on.... What *will* turn these insane rich people around? The average person doesn't seem to be any sort of threat.
I don't like it that people are starving to death. It is really not necessary.
Carry on...
Reply #35 Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:38 PM
I'm old enough to connect the dots and get the big picture. I was surprised to discover that we do get mature enough to figure it all out, but then it is too late, cuz noone listens to an older person for some odd reason.
But to the point here...
The media is responsible for pointing to stuff that is going on: "Hey, look over here at what this guy is doing!" No matter how true or how stetched out of shape the story is, I say to myself, "Okay, so this is what the media wants me to be thinking about. Hmmmmm, wonder what is going on in the shadows..."
Take bin Laden... here is this guy who is hiding and yet sends video tapes through hell and high water to make it to the international news. "Over here, everyone! It's me! It's all me! See me over here?!!"
And more generally, I think mankind is starting to rearrange the deck chairs on this sinking ship.
Once the ruling class was able to desensitize themselves to starvation caused by their policies, I would say that it is just a matter of time. Bono is correct, in my opinion, that we are choosing to let people die as long as they make some kind of payment on debt. The loan sharks gave out blank checks to whom ever they wanted to destroy and now most of the world is living below the breakeven point to sustain life.
It seems nothing will move them to ease up and at least see to it that everyone on earth gets something to eat every day. I mean, come on.... What *will* turn these insane rich people around? The average person doesn't seem to be any sort of threat.
I don't like it that people are starving to death. It is really not necessary.
Carry on...
Sugaree
Reply #36 Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:04 PM
Reply #36 Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:04 PM
Yeah, What karmegeddon said! Oh, and btw the bbq party is at my house.
IPlural
Reply #40 Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:13 AM
Reply #40 Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:13 AM
Well... what the heck I'll clamb out on that limb....
Someone hand me that chain saw please?
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Global Warming and the destruction of livable habitat = Hard 100% Scientific Proof or it is not real
God of/and/or any Religion the salvation of their followers = Books of Fable, hear say, rumor, innuendo's and hopeful/fearful thinking and it without question 100% reality and if you do not believe your damned to Hell.
mind boggling...
Someone hand me that chain saw please?
.
.
.
.
.
Global Warming and the destruction of livable habitat = Hard 100% Scientific Proof or it is not real
God of/and/or any Religion the salvation of their followers = Books of Fable, hear say, rumor, innuendo's and hopeful/fearful thinking and it without question 100% reality and if you do not believe your damned to Hell.
mind boggling...
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Reply #21 Friday, June 20, 2003 12:34 PM
Very true, oh green one....