Over 3 million dead
Tuesday, April 8, 2003 by paxx | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Was reading this morning that over the last 4 years, some 3.3 million people died in Congo, as a result of the civil war going on there. Most died of malnutrition and deseases, but all due to the totally terrible conditions the country has been in for the last few years.
I know Iraq is a hot topic right now, but this seems to me to be a much greater problem that needs our (UN and other countries able of help) attention. What is the UN waiting for to send troops to stop that carnage? Why isn't anything done? More people are dying in Congo than during Saddam's reign of terror. Of course, the problem is totally different, but something needs to be done too. The number of casualties is totally insane.
I know Iraq is a hot topic right now, but this seems to me to be a much greater problem that needs our (UN and other countries able of help) attention. What is the UN waiting for to send troops to stop that carnage? Why isn't anything done? More people are dying in Congo than during Saddam's reign of terror. Of course, the problem is totally different, but something needs to be done too. The number of casualties is totally insane.
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sig101
Reply #22 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 6:20 PM
Reply #22 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 6:20 PM
Paxx, you want the UN to send troops to the Congo? To do what? To interfere using force? The mere threat of force alone usually doesn't work very well in such situations, generally it winds up needing to be used to some extent, even if only on a limited basis in the best case.
I'm a bit confused why you as a pacifist, given your other comments elsewhere, would advocate sending a military force into another country. Perhaps the UN is still waiting to see if given enough time diplomacy will work.
I'm a bit confused why you as a pacifist, given your other comments elsewhere, would advocate sending a military force into another country. Perhaps the UN is still waiting to see if given enough time diplomacy will work.
paxx
Reply #23 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:25 PM
Reply #23 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:25 PM
sig, UN have done peace keeping missions before.
I don't know what the answer would be. A few warning from the UN first, then maybe send some troops, not to invade or drop bombs. But to stop the war there. Not even sure any fighting would actually be necessary. It wouldn't be like another coutry invaded Congo, I'm sure the UN troops would be totally welcomed by most people. It's been done before. I remember Chipra. And yes, most of the time, peace keeping troops need to stay there for a while. 10, 15 years maybe.
In the other thread, when I was talking about World peace, and suggesting a Wold Peacekeeping force, this is specifically the kind of situation I see that International Peacekeepers being there for. Not to bring war, but to stop war and suffering.
Listen, I'm just totally agast by the number of victims. That's almost half the umber of jews who died in WW2! This is totally outrageous. I don't understand why it's not all over the news, or why it hasn't been before.
I must admit, suddenly, the war in Iraq seems so trivial anymore. I think the people of Congo deserves a least half the attention we seem to be giving to Saddam.
I don't know what the answer would be. A few warning from the UN first, then maybe send some troops, not to invade or drop bombs. But to stop the war there. Not even sure any fighting would actually be necessary. It wouldn't be like another coutry invaded Congo, I'm sure the UN troops would be totally welcomed by most people. It's been done before. I remember Chipra. And yes, most of the time, peace keeping troops need to stay there for a while. 10, 15 years maybe.
In the other thread, when I was talking about World peace, and suggesting a Wold Peacekeeping force, this is specifically the kind of situation I see that International Peacekeepers being there for. Not to bring war, but to stop war and suffering.
Listen, I'm just totally agast by the number of victims. That's almost half the umber of jews who died in WW2! This is totally outrageous. I don't understand why it's not all over the news, or why it hasn't been before.
I must admit, suddenly, the war in Iraq seems so trivial anymore. I think the people of Congo deserves a least half the attention we seem to be giving to Saddam.
bakerstreet
Reply #24 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:30 PM
Reply #24 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:30 PM
sig101: a thousand people died there last week, if not more. It is force or nothing. My bet is it will be nothing.
bakerstreet
Reply #25 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:36 PM
Reply #25 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:36 PM
paxx: the situation wasn't much different in Somalia when we went there. We were not 'welcomed'. Black Hawk Down doesn't need a sequel. If anyone goes to help they should go fully prepared to cause a great deal of damage before they can help anyone.
P.S. the estimated number of people 'purged' by Stalin is around 40 million. Some say a lot more were killed in China. 'Millions' isn't all that odd, anymore. Try and tell that to people blocking traffic to protest what amounts to a police action in Iraq.
P.S. the estimated number of people 'purged' by Stalin is around 40 million. Some say a lot more were killed in China. 'Millions' isn't all that odd, anymore. Try and tell that to people blocking traffic to protest what amounts to a police action in Iraq.
Xerraire
Reply #26 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:54 PM
Reply #26 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:54 PM
bakerstreet is right.
you would think, even if the numbers aren't as staggering as Stalin's what paxx has mentioned here should at least be front page news and its not.
you would think, even if the numbers aren't as staggering as Stalin's what paxx has mentioned here should at least be front page news and its not.
sig101
Reply #28 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 9:05 PM
Reply #28 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 9:05 PM
Paxx, yes I know about the use of UN peacekeeping forces...but in some situations UN peacekeepers have had to resort to force, even if only in self defense since typically they aren't intended as an offensive force. Just their presence alone often isn't enough from keeping people from trying to kill each other, particularly in an area that hasn't already been "pacified" by other means, either a cease fire agreement (which evidently hasn't worked in the Congo) or military action as in Kosovo. And even then, hostilities do on occasion still occur.
Yeah, Bakerstreet, in such a situation I think force would be required. Not just troops acting as the cop on the beat.
Yeah, Bakerstreet, in such a situation I think force would be required. Not just troops acting as the cop on the beat.
Old_Crab
Reply #29 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 11:49 PM
Reply #29 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 11:49 PM
Hmmmmm...more Bush wars? Afghanistan, Kosovo, Iraq, Korea, where to next folks. Sudan, Yemen (North & South), Iran, Syria? At some point in time the U.S. is going to run out of people to send to these Bush wars. OC knows 4 reserveists (two at the front lines) and 2 others that have standby status. I've talked to these family men and woman (cousin) and they've already made the decision to NOT re-enlist. They believe that this Iraq war was not necessary and was a waste of life and money. Maybe before any of us here decide on the future of these people we may want to ask them if they want to go and die in some jungle in Africa or another desert kingdom. Let's just stay home and let other nations solve their own problems with their own blood and money. There. My 2 cents worth. >
BoBoMoe
Reply #30 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 7:20 AM
Reply #30 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 7:20 AM
Old Crab, apparently you aren't so old as to remember such isolationist and pacifist attitudes in the 1930's allowed the rise of Nazi Germany and delayed the entry of the US into WWII. You can not just ignore things and hope they will go away, eventually they will come knocking on your door, this is why 911 happened. Your 2 cents only buys trouble. Those who ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.
Green Armani
Reply #31 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 7:42 AM
Reply #31 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 7:42 AM
Not to sound gung-ho but anyone who decides to not re-enlist because they refuse to fight for this country...well I wouldn't want them in my fox hole.
I don't know if they are Marines or not but my unit was begging to go to Iraq simply because "We" believe as the rest of the world is now seeing that 1)Saddam has been removed from power 2)His supposed removal of chem/bio and WMD weapons shows how useless the UN was in policing him 3)The liberation of the Iraqi's is being well recieved.....I saw this morning all the celebrating on the streets over there. You can disagree or say anyhting you want but that freedom that they are slowly seeing is what this country fights for. I wouldn't want to shut the world out, if someone needs help and it's at the cost of my life or those of my fellow service members and the president tells us to go then so be it.
We are probably beeing saved to go to a possible conflict in N. Korea.........we have a $250 pool on that right now
I don't know if they are Marines or not but my unit was begging to go to Iraq simply because "We" believe as the rest of the world is now seeing that 1)Saddam has been removed from power 2)His supposed removal of chem/bio and WMD weapons shows how useless the UN was in policing him 3)The liberation of the Iraqi's is being well recieved.....I saw this morning all the celebrating on the streets over there. You can disagree or say anyhting you want but that freedom that they are slowly seeing is what this country fights for. I wouldn't want to shut the world out, if someone needs help and it's at the cost of my life or those of my fellow service members and the president tells us to go then so be it.
We are probably beeing saved to go to a possible conflict in N. Korea.........we have a $250 pool on that right now
BoBoMoe
Reply #32 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 10:38 AM
Reply #32 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 10:38 AM
I'm with you Green. Just what do they think the military is for anyway, a career in interior decorating? Plaeeeze! Just what were they thinking when they enlisted? How can I get in on that North Korea pool? ! You should start a pool for Iran and Syria too! Nations that promote terrorism, tyranny or proliferate weapons of mass destruction should take note and learn from Iraq. They are dancing in the streets of Baghdad and toppling statues of Saddam. We have done a very good thing. The UN still stands by with their thumbs up their "you know what" and nothing gets done, completly impotent and self serving.
! You should start a pool for Iran and Syria too! Nations that promote terrorism, tyranny or proliferate weapons of mass destruction should take note and learn from Iraq. They are dancing in the streets of Baghdad and toppling statues of Saddam. We have done a very good thing. The UN still stands by with their thumbs up their "you know what" and nothing gets done, completly impotent and self serving.
Orion
Reply #33 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 10:55 AM
Reply #33 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 10:55 AM
>> "Guess they don't have any oil...."
Even a smiley can't hide the ignorance in that statement...
>> "The UN still stands by with their
>> thumbs up their "you know what" and
>> nothing gets done, completly impotent
>> and self serving."
The term "hit the nail on the head" comes to mind.
"Even a smiley can't hide the ignorance in that statement...
>> "The UN still stands by with their
>> thumbs up their "you know what" and
>> nothing gets done, completly impotent
>> and self serving."
The term "hit the nail on the head" comes to mind.
craeonics
Reply #35 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:09 AM
Reply #35 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:09 AM
The chain that is the UN is only as potent as its weakest link. Besides, it's not the world's police force.
Bangkokboy
Reply #36 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:11 AM
Reply #36 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:11 AM
if you had on-scene reporting sending film of the latest slaughters to the world media every evening, it would get more attention. but when reporters go to observe that kind of situation, they are often killed or imprisoned.
look also at how many million equatorial africans are going to die from HIV during the next ten years, and the inadequate measures being used to try to stem the epidemic. you're right, paxx, it's ghastly.
look also at how many million equatorial africans are going to die from HIV during the next ten years, and the inadequate measures being used to try to stem the epidemic. you're right, paxx, it's ghastly.
KarmaGirl
Reply #37 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:29 AM
Reply #37 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:29 AM
#33 by Orion - 4/9/2003 10:55:26 AM
>> "Guess they don't have any oil...."
Even a smiley can't hide the ignorance in that statement...
Orion, you may want to go back and read Jafo's posts about war before you say he is ignorant. I believe he was poking fun at people who believe this war is about oil.
>> "Guess they don't have any oil....
"Even a smiley can't hide the ignorance in that statement...
Orion, you may want to go back and read Jafo's posts about war before you say he is ignorant. I believe he was poking fun at people who believe this war is about oil.
BoBoMoe
Reply #38 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:36 AM
Reply #38 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:36 AM
Bangkokboy, I agree with that 100%, very gastly. We can sit around and tell each other just how gastly it is or come up with some solutions. Sometimes the solutions aren't so pretty either but they are a far lesser evil than what would proliferate if nothing is ever done. I understand some of the pacifists that have stated their case here that's all well and good but until we live in a utopian society those thoughts are just a dream. I want that too but we have a long way to go before we can reach that state. There is still too much evil in the world.
Orion
Reply #39 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:52 AM
Reply #39 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:52 AM
> Orion, you may want to go back and read
> Jafo's posts about war before you say he is
> ignorant. I believe he was poking fun at
> people who believe this war is about oil.
I wasn't saying 'he' was ignorant in the least. He seems like a thoughful, intelligent person to me. The statement was (and is) ignorant and I stand by that. I don't get around the forums too much, so if I missed an inside joke, oops. If he was poking fun at the bozo's that actually think this, then I'm 100% with him...
> Jafo's posts about war before you say he is
> ignorant. I believe he was poking fun at
> people who believe this war is about oil.
I wasn't saying 'he' was ignorant in the least. He seems like a thoughful, intelligent person to me. The statement was (and is) ignorant and I stand by that. I don't get around the forums too much, so if I missed an inside joke, oops. If he was poking fun at the bozo's that actually think this, then I'm 100% with him...
Old_Crab
Reply #40 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:53 AM
Reply #40 Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:53 AM
Old Crabs Reservists friends are right. (1)Marine-Major (2)are in the Air Force (supply and bomb loader), and my cousin is a Capt. in the Army reserve (Shell Chemical employee) now due to deploy. There's too much in the History books BoBoMoe to justify your opinion and mine. As for Green Armani the people I know would defend you and your fox hole. They do not refuse to fight and have honored their commitments to the fullest extent. You on the other hand seem to just want to get into a fight for the sake of a fight. The WMD have not materialized as yet and if they do they couldn't be much of a haul. WMD was just the EXCUSE to invade Iraq. A lie plain and clear.
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Reply #21 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 5:16 PM