US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
opps
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Xerraire
Reply #1562 Friday, April 11, 2003 10:45 AM
Reply #1562 Friday, April 11, 2003 10:45 AM
I don't trust the UN, sorry.
bakerstreet's news item will likely be confirmed a few times over.
This is interesting: How CNN's people in Iraq kept a lot of atrocities to themselves.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&en=ea21e8c88feae21c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
bakerstreet's news item will likely be confirmed a few times over.
This is interesting: How CNN's people in Iraq kept a lot of atrocities to themselves.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&en=ea21e8c88feae21c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
paxx
Reply #1563 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:12 AM
Reply #1563 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:12 AM
I woldn't expect you to be. 
We like the UN when they do what we want, and we don't like them when they don't.
In 1991, I too thought that the UN were just a joke.
We like the UN when they do what we want, and we don't like them when they don't.
In 1991, I too thought that the UN were just a joke.
paxx
Reply #1564 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:14 AM
Reply #1564 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:14 AM
I forgot to add:
But that's just like anything else, isn't it?
The government, the police, the trials, the schools, the parents (when you're a teen), etc.
But that's just like anything else, isn't it?
The government, the police, the trials, the schools, the parents (when you're a teen), etc.
JamMeister33
Reply #1565 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:48 AM
Reply #1565 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:48 AM
Paxx, why don't you wake up and smell the bacon burning.... your country was in bed with Saddam and that's the only
reason the French are so upset. Now they lose all that money in deals they had made with a lunatic.
reason the French are so upset. Now they lose all that money in deals they had made with a lunatic.
bakerstreet
Reply #1566 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:54 AM
Reply #1566 Friday, April 11, 2003 11:54 AM
paxx: considering North Korea has the ability to produce weapons-grade material *now*, and they are happy to supply Iraq with other military equipment in defiance of UN sanctions, I would say that time and expense are well within a tolerable level. Regardless, it ignores the fact that material like this is deadly even if it isn't refined further.
The whole 'holier-than-thou' thing is really, really weak and hypocritical.
The whole 'holier-than-thou' thing is really, really weak and hypocritical.
paxx
Reply #1567 Friday, April 11, 2003 12:21 PM
Reply #1567 Friday, April 11, 2003 12:21 PM
Jam, what are you talking about? My country was in bed with Saddam? Excuse-me? And why would France be upset about it anyway?
Bakerstreet, UN is not perfect, but it's only legitimate means.
[ insert post #1566 here again ]
Bakerstreet, UN is not perfect, but it's only legitimate means.
[ insert post #1566 here again ]
bakerstreet
Reply #1568 Friday, April 11, 2003 12:53 PM
Reply #1568 Friday, April 11, 2003 12:53 PM
paxx: legitimate!=popular. The UN simply allows a democratic facade to be imposed upon the same Machiavellian political scheming that prevailed throughout the 'courts of Europe' and elsewhere.
If someone would have told me a year ago that I would be sitting here arguing with a peacenik about how Russia and China are right and Saddam Hussein should be left in power, I would have laughed in their face. Don't you feel odd finding yourself in a crowd like that, protecting a regime like that?
How leisurely-intellectual you'd have to be to stand among them and pretend to be afraid of the United States. If you guys want to keep going back to the 20 or 30 years to villainize the US, do the same for everyone else you are granting legitimacy to. Once the US is alienated enough, these strange alliances will need to hold water. I wonder if they will?
If you look around the poker table and you can't figure our who the sucker is...
If someone would have told me a year ago that I would be sitting here arguing with a peacenik about how Russia and China are right and Saddam Hussein should be left in power, I would have laughed in their face. Don't you feel odd finding yourself in a crowd like that, protecting a regime like that?
How leisurely-intellectual you'd have to be to stand among them and pretend to be afraid of the United States. If you guys want to keep going back to the 20 or 30 years to villainize the US, do the same for everyone else you are granting legitimacy to. Once the US is alienated enough, these strange alliances will need to hold water. I wonder if they will?
If you look around the poker table and you can't figure our who the sucker is...
sig101
Reply #1569 Friday, April 11, 2003 2:38 PM
Reply #1569 Friday, April 11, 2003 2:38 PM
Jam: Paxx is a Canadian, which (as far as I know anyway) wasn't particularly cosy with Saddam, businesswise or militarily. Unlike France, Russia, the US and even Kuwait, which prior to 1991 had friendly relations with the Iraqi regime. Times change as do alliances when mutual interests are no longer shared.
It's interesting especially now that when it suits a nation's particular agenda or interest, the UN is touted as the only legitimate authority on the world scene. I recall times when Russia and other nations did not think so as they now appear to. It depends on whose ox is gored at the time. As for what nation is perhaps most responsible for the UN's creation, it was none of the countries now touting themselves as standard bearers for the UN and its legal supremacy over individual's nations policies and actions. Of course the US cites previous UN resolutions (including the 1991 cease fire resolution) as authorization for the action in Iraq now. Although really one fig leaf to hide under is as good as another, I suppose. I was, however, surprised to see a Russian journalist attribute Putin's opposition to the war as based on the concern that Russia could lose considerable $$$ if its contracts are voided due to a change in the Iraqi regime.
It's interesting especially now that when it suits a nation's particular agenda or interest, the UN is touted as the only legitimate authority on the world scene. I recall times when Russia and other nations did not think so as they now appear to. It depends on whose ox is gored at the time. As for what nation is perhaps most responsible for the UN's creation, it was none of the countries now touting themselves as standard bearers for the UN and its legal supremacy over individual's nations policies and actions. Of course the US cites previous UN resolutions (including the 1991 cease fire resolution) as authorization for the action in Iraq now. Although really one fig leaf to hide under is as good as another, I suppose.
I was, however, surprised to see a Russian journalist attribute Putin's opposition to the war as based on the concern that Russia could lose considerable $$$ if its contracts are voided due to a change in the Iraqi regime.
craeonics
Reply #1570 Friday, April 11, 2003 2:46 PM
Reply #1570 Friday, April 11, 2003 2:46 PM
Have you seen the looters? Incredible what they carry with them. I saw one guy walking off with a sink, some kid carrying fire extinguishers and people ransacking a bank and tearing up all bills with Saddam's face on it.
Xerraire
Reply #1571 Friday, April 11, 2003 3:19 PM
Reply #1571 Friday, April 11, 2003 3:19 PM
Imagine 30 years of torture, likely all the 'looters' you see either know someone or have had a family member in one of those torture chambers, I imagine they're pissed, crae.
After 30 years, I suspect we'd all let off some steam.
After 30 years, I suspect we'd all let off some steam.
joetheblow
Reply #1572 Friday, April 11, 2003 3:27 PM
Reply #1572 Friday, April 11, 2003 3:27 PM
I like the UN very much. but I woundn't go so far as to make it a ruling body. It doesn't do much and for the most part because there are so many countries in it with there own agenda. PLUS the fact that many nations do not want the UN to be powerful becuase it could go against thier interests later on. I never expected the UN to be powerful, or ever will, because there is no nation that will want it to be so without being in control of it.
craeonics
Reply #1573 Friday, April 11, 2003 4:10 PM
Reply #1573 Friday, April 11, 2003 4:10 PM
Xerraire: either that, or someone was in desperate need of a sink. If I were to go looting, I would not steal a sink.
Bangkokboy
Reply #1574 Friday, April 11, 2003 4:19 PM
Reply #1574 Friday, April 11, 2003 4:19 PM
people the world over have a real love-hate relationship with authority and force. they hate it when it's thwarting their personal desires, and love it when it thwarts the clod who's trying to loot their house. 
Xerraire
Reply #1575 Friday, April 11, 2003 5:56 PM
Reply #1575 Friday, April 11, 2003 5:56 PM
crae
you gave me a giggle
hehe
ok, see how we take everything for granted? we all have sinks, maybe they didn't and it was so valuable to them.
you gave me a giggle
hehe
ok, see how we take everything for granted? we all have sinks, maybe they didn't and it was so valuable to them.
sig101
Reply #1576 Friday, April 11, 2003 7:06 PM
Reply #1576 Friday, April 11, 2003 7:06 PM
Some of the people looting told reporters they were going to sell the stuff they took. So while some stuff may be for personal use, other stuff no doubt is being taken as an exercise in private enterprise.
JamMeister33
Reply #1577 Friday, April 11, 2003 9:28 PM
Reply #1577 Friday, April 11, 2003 9:28 PM
The UN is a pathetic excuse and totally ineffectual and in my opinion should be abolished....
United indeed, just who are they trying to kid?
Completely worthless institution and needs to be replaced with something REAL...
United indeed, just who are they trying to kid?
Completely worthless institution and needs to be replaced with something REAL...
JamMeister33
Reply #1578 Friday, April 11, 2003 9:33 PM
Reply #1578 Friday, April 11, 2003 9:33 PM
I don't pretend to have the answers, I only have personal opinions... just like the rest of you...
joetheblow
Reply #1579 Friday, April 11, 2003 9:35 PM
Reply #1579 Friday, April 11, 2003 9:35 PM
craeonics, if you don't have a sink, then you have a reason to take it. then you could also sell it becuase most likely others do not have sinks as well.
This is Iraq remember? Saddam? 12 years of sanctions that really only effect the population?
yeah, speaking of sanctions, i undertand why its done, but more effert should be made to make them work better. Some guy must have thought, "if we sanction them, the people will rise up and a new goverment will form."
Sadly the countries that are sansioned usually oppress the people so the only ones that get hurt is the people. Those in power still live pretty well.
This is Iraq remember? Saddam? 12 years of sanctions that really only effect the population?
yeah, speaking of sanctions, i undertand why its done, but more effert should be made to make them work better. Some guy must have thought, "if we sanction them, the people will rise up and a new goverment will form."
Sadly the countries that are sansioned usually oppress the people so the only ones that get hurt is the people. Those in power still live pretty well.
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Reply #1561 Friday, April 11, 2003 2:53 AM
Dunno, but I tend to trust to UN and its inspectors. I trust it more than I trust any single country. But I know some people wish that the US would replace the UN.