US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
opps
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JamMeister33
Reply #1102 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:15 AM
Reply #1102 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:15 AM
Hey, joetheblow... nothing against you brother... but @shu is a good friend of mine and I hate to see him get flamed here because he comes from a different continent and has a different point of view....
I'm the one who advised him to not bother arguing his opinions on this thread.
It's called a "no win situation"
I'm the one who advised him to not bother arguing his opinions on this thread.
It's called a "no win situation"
JamMeister33
Reply #1103 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:33 AM
Reply #1103 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:33 AM
perhaps I am wrong and shouldn't try to influence him....
But I did say he is a friend of mine!
But I did say he is a friend of mine!
Bangkokboy
Reply #1104 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:48 AM
been gone several days. the postings have gotten long on words and long on emotion. and i'm feeling short on time. 
Reply #1104 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:48 AM
been gone several days. the postings have gotten long on words and long on emotion. and i'm feeling short on time. 
bakerstreet
Reply #1105 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:00 AM
Reply #1105 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:00 AM
Anyone can 'win' if they have something to say and can back it up with facts. The fact is, though, most who are supposedly 'anti-war' rarely have anything to say about what to do with Saddam Hussein.
You see it here, and at devart, and everywhere else. Months of horrible, bloody footage from Palestine, or Chechnya, or the Ivory Coast, or Zimbabwe... and... nothing. Hundreds, thousands, tens-of-thousands die... silence. Then Rumsfeld or Bush or Cheney says one teeny word about 'axis of evil' and the anti-war rants explode; railing that the US is bringing about the Apocalypse. Hurry, let's pillage a McDonald's. How sadly transparent.
I don't wanna go further and describe those who are just anti-war when it comes to their own nation or religion or race. Jafo is watching me...
Fact is, though, unless people around here can bash the US about a conflict, or feel they might be drawn into it, they generally couldn't care less. That isn't 'anti-war' in any sense of the term.
**
I'm still waiting to see if anyone is gonna try to put a positive spin on the US soldiers we dug up today. For some reason it is easy to think the worst about the US, and yet we are *required* to think the best of someone like Saddam Hussein when it comes to POWs. Earlier, I got the equivalent of 'WTF?' when i expressed concern when they were taken captive. Now, they might as well be from Rwanda for all the mention they get here.
You see it here, and at devart, and everywhere else. Months of horrible, bloody footage from Palestine, or Chechnya, or the Ivory Coast, or Zimbabwe... and... nothing. Hundreds, thousands, tens-of-thousands die... silence. Then Rumsfeld or Bush or Cheney says one teeny word about 'axis of evil' and the anti-war rants explode; railing that the US is bringing about the Apocalypse. Hurry, let's pillage a McDonald's. How sadly transparent.
I don't wanna go further and describe those who are just anti-war when it comes to their own nation or religion or race. Jafo is watching me...
Fact is, though, unless people around here can bash the US about a conflict, or feel they might be drawn into it, they generally couldn't care less. That isn't 'anti-war' in any sense of the term.**
I'm still waiting to see if anyone is gonna try to put a positive spin on the US soldiers we dug up today. For some reason it is easy to think the worst about the US, and yet we are *required* to think the best of someone like Saddam Hussein when it comes to POWs. Earlier, I got the equivalent of 'WTF?' when i expressed concern when they were taken captive. Now, they might as well be from Rwanda for all the mention they get here.
JamMeister33
Reply #1106 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:59 AM
Reply #1106 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:59 AM
bakerstreet, you know I very rarely address you.....
I have to say that your view is the only one in this entire thread that I can wholeheartedly agree with...
some of the points you have made strike deep into my own feelings which I keep locked up tightly..
Scary isn't it?
I have to say that your view is the only one in this entire thread that I can wholeheartedly agree with...
some of the points you have made strike deep into my own feelings which I keep locked up tightly..
Scary isn't it?
JamMeister33
Reply #1107 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:09 AM
Reply #1107 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:09 AM
Oh, and by the way, if anyone wants to dispute with @shnu.. run it by me first or at the same time....
I don't care....
I will support my friend's to make their views even if I should not agree with that view...
key word here being.... "Friend"
I don't care....
I will support my friend's to make their views even if I should not agree with that view...
key word here being.... "Friend"
Xerraire
Reply #1108 Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:04 AM
Reply #1108 Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:04 AM
Here is a sweet story by Yahoo News http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030329/ts_afp/iraq_war_civilians_030329211652
some excerpts...
"....Iraqi civilians fleeing heavy fighting have stunned and delighted hungry US marines in central Iraq by giving them food, as guerrilla attacks continue to disrupt coalition supply lines to the rear."
"...At one camp, the buses stopped and women passed out food to the troops, who have had to ration their army-issue packets of ready-to-eat meals due to disruptions to supply lines by fierce fighting further south"
"...Khairi Ilrekibi, 35, a passenger on one of the buses, which broke down near the marine position, said he could speak for the 20 others on board.
In broken English he told a correspondent travelling with the marines: "We like Americans," adding that no one liked Saddam Hussein because "he was not kind."
"They told me they wanted to go to America after the war. I said where. They said California. I said why? They said the song Hotel California and they left singing Hotel California."
some excerpts...
"....Iraqi civilians fleeing heavy fighting have stunned and delighted hungry US marines in central Iraq by giving them food, as guerrilla attacks continue to disrupt coalition supply lines to the rear."
"...At one camp, the buses stopped and women passed out food to the troops, who have had to ration their army-issue packets of ready-to-eat meals due to disruptions to supply lines by fierce fighting further south"
"...Khairi Ilrekibi, 35, a passenger on one of the buses, which broke down near the marine position, said he could speak for the 20 others on board.
In broken English he told a correspondent travelling with the marines: "We like Americans," adding that no one liked Saddam Hussein because "he was not kind."
"They told me they wanted to go to America after the war. I said where. They said California. I said why? They said the song Hotel California and they left singing Hotel California."
JamMeister33
Reply #1109 Sunday, March 30, 2003 11:16 AM
Reply #1109 Sunday, March 30, 2003 11:16 AM
Now that's just too rich.... 
Don't they know that once they check in they can never leave?
Don't they know that once they check in they can never leave?
joetheblow
Reply #1110 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:30 PM
Reply #1110 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:30 PM
I didn't realize @shu was getting flamed??? I think he has the right to post his opinions from his own point of view.
@shu has made many points that are worth addressing. I think if we spend more time looking at each others opinions and understanding where they come from might help in a clearer understanding of what is being said.
anyway... http://www.msnbc.com/news/743584.asp
not everyone is for the war, not everyone is against it. some are in the middle, and others just want peace. even more want to win now that the fighting has begon and worry about how or who and why after the fighting has ended.
For me, I don't want war because of what happens in it. If there is going to be a war that fight it for real and end it (no half as* stuff)
I was one who oppossed the war in many ways, but found it hard, if not impossible, to come up with a solution to otherwise ovoid it. Many might say you can allways choose otherwise, but I feel not to the point where your letting someone walk all over you to no benefit other than to be walked over.
So I took it apon myself to find a way to avoid the war... and found no answers. This was before the war started.
@shu has made many points that are worth addressing. I think if we spend more time looking at each others opinions and understanding where they come from might help in a clearer understanding of what is being said.
anyway... http://www.msnbc.com/news/743584.asp
not everyone is for the war, not everyone is against it. some are in the middle, and others just want peace. even more want to win now that the fighting has begon and worry about how or who and why after the fighting has ended.
For me, I don't want war because of what happens in it. If there is going to be a war that fight it for real and end it (no half as* stuff)
I was one who oppossed the war in many ways, but found it hard, if not impossible, to come up with a solution to otherwise ovoid it. Many might say you can allways choose otherwise, but I feel not to the point where your letting someone walk all over you to no benefit other than to be walked over.
So I took it apon myself to find a way to avoid the war... and found no answers. This was before the war started.
joetheblow
Reply #1111 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:55 PM
Reply #1111 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:55 PM
yes bakerstreet, I noticed that many of my anti-war friends tend to not have much to say when I mention Saddams record. Or the other places you mentioned are not on thier radar at this time.
I guess the question of the day would be why Saddam first? What about Palestine, or Chechnya, or the Ivory Coast, or Zimbabwe?
I think I know why, but I am not sure if it is realality or not.
I guess the question of the day would be why Saddam first? What about Palestine, or Chechnya, or the Ivory Coast, or Zimbabwe?
I think I know why, but I am not sure if it is realality or not.
joetheblow
Reply #1112 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:58 PM
Reply #1112 Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:58 PM
also keep in mind that we all are humans and for the most part we tend to ignore things that are not in our back yard.
and get angry when someone wants to put it there
and get angry when someone wants to put it there
JamMeister33
Reply #1113 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:31 PM
Reply #1113 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:31 PM
I was opposed to the war from the beginning, I didn't want it, but now that we are in the middle of it I hope we mop them up REAL good. Take out Saddam, his sons, and his entire group of loyal followers. Hopefully, God willing, with the least amount of innocent blood shed possible.
joetheblow
Reply #1114 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:38 PM
Reply #1114 Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:38 PM
oh
another link:
http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/polipro/pp2003-03-05.htm
Funny, that is exactly what I think happened... but it clearly over states some issues and ignores others. It still leaves allot of my questions unanswered.
another link:
http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/polipro/pp2003-03-05.htm
Funny, that is exactly what I think happened... but it clearly over states some issues and ignores others. It still leaves allot of my questions unanswered.
bakerstreet
Reply #1115 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:08 PM
Reply #1115 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:08 PM
Joe:
of the few you mention:
Palestine would mean getting between Israel and Palestinian groups and terrorists there. None of them want us, and nothing we could do would solve the problem.
Chechnya would mean forcefully stopping Russia from attacking them, not a happy idea.
Ivory Coast is a French mess, and would mean getting between the French and the various factions there. Fun thought, huh.
Zimbabwe? actually I have no idea why the UN hasn't taken serious steps to unseat the 'president', Robert Mugabe, or at least protect his citizens from his hate crimes. The US froze his assets and such, but his thugs still murder white landowners and seize their property. He has had numerous political opponents and members of the press killed. One political opponent had to resort to text-messenging people's cell phones to get his message out, but then Mugabe had that declared illegal. He's used this Iraq distraction to imprison hundreds of his opponents, most of which will disappear in prison. An evil man in every sense, much like the others the UN never 'gets around to'.
Those who are 'anti-war', though, have lots to be angry about. Russia has been pounding Chchnya into submission for years, and not a hint, not a whisper from the doves. The US goes to unseat an evil dictator and every 18 year old soccer thug has an excuse to throw stuff at the police, and every high school 'thinker' has a reason to spam messageboards with tirades against the US. Sad for the millions that the fair-weather doves ignore, suffering in other conflicts all over the world.
of the few you mention:
Palestine would mean getting between Israel and Palestinian groups and terrorists there. None of them want us, and nothing we could do would solve the problem.
Chechnya would mean forcefully stopping Russia from attacking them, not a happy idea.
Ivory Coast is a French mess, and would mean getting between the French and the various factions there. Fun thought, huh.
Zimbabwe? actually I have no idea why the UN hasn't taken serious steps to unseat the 'president', Robert Mugabe, or at least protect his citizens from his hate crimes. The US froze his assets and such, but his thugs still murder white landowners and seize their property. He has had numerous political opponents and members of the press killed. One political opponent had to resort to text-messenging people's cell phones to get his message out, but then Mugabe had that declared illegal. He's used this Iraq distraction to imprison hundreds of his opponents, most of which will disappear in prison. An evil man in every sense, much like the others the UN never 'gets around to'.
Those who are 'anti-war', though, have lots to be angry about. Russia has been pounding Chchnya into submission for years, and not a hint, not a whisper from the doves. The US goes to unseat an evil dictator and every 18 year old soccer thug has an excuse to throw stuff at the police, and every high school 'thinker' has a reason to spam messageboards with tirades against the US. Sad for the millions that the fair-weather doves ignore, suffering in other conflicts all over the world.
joetheblow
Reply #1116 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:40 PM
Reply #1116 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:40 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/05/bowden.htm
It would seem to me that Saddam can not keep on fighting and keep power.
There are many non-justice type things going on around the world.
and many ways to handle them. any I speak to have no clue as to how to handle them. Many others weren't very aware of many of those 'happenings' around the world or the polotics behind solving them.
Anyway, I hope I have your vote whenI become president of the UN.
thanks bakerstreet for the clarifacation.
paxx, stay strong
@shu, do you know you have a @ symbol in your name?
Green Armani, fight the good fight. (for a definition of 'good' please refer to the Good Vs. Evil thread j/k)
be safe everyone!
It would seem to me that Saddam can not keep on fighting and keep power.
There are many non-justice type things going on around the world.
and many ways to handle them. any I speak to have no clue as to how to handle them. Many others weren't very aware of many of those 'happenings' around the world or the polotics behind solving them.
Anyway, I hope I have your vote whenI become president of the UN.
thanks bakerstreet for the clarifacation.
paxx, stay strong
@shu, do you know you have a @ symbol in your name?
Green Armani, fight the good fight. (for a definition of 'good' please refer to the Good Vs. Evil thread
j/k)be safe everyone!
paxx
Reply #1117 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:59 PM
Reply #1117 Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:59 PM
The part I can't understand about the agressivity this wars brings amoung friends is : why? I mean, really. Why feel so strongly about this? Is it worth it? Is "liberating" a people that doesn't want you there really all that worth it? Is getting thousands of American soldiers killed really worth liberating the anti-American Irakis?
Now they are saying that there are 150,000 shia Iraki rebel soldiers, training in Iran, that may join the fight AGAINST the US, although the very reason they trained is to fight against Saddam. And from the moment those shia Iraki join the fight, it's just a small step from Iran itself joining in. Then probably Siria.
IS anyone else starting to think this could turn into WW3? Cause of course, then France and Germany would step in to help out the US. Europe/US vs Middle East?
In the end, is it really all that worth it? For what again? The liberate Irak, really?
Now they are saying that there are 150,000 shia Iraki rebel soldiers, training in Iran, that may join the fight AGAINST the US, although the very reason they trained is to fight against Saddam. And from the moment those shia Iraki join the fight, it's just a small step from Iran itself joining in. Then probably Siria.
IS anyone else starting to think this could turn into WW3? Cause of course, then France and Germany would step in to help out the US. Europe/US vs Middle East?
In the end, is it really all that worth it? For what again? The liberate Irak, really?
bakerstreet
Reply #1119 Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:12 PM
Reply #1119 Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:12 PM
paxx: you'll never understand why, because you refuse to believe any of the stated reasons for doing this. It is the moral equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming really loud. You'll go on believing Al-Jazeera lies, and thinking the worst of the US and the best of Iraq. You'll discount all the Iraqi people who are happy to see us there, just like you discount all those who have suffered for the last 30 years under his rule.
If you didn't discount them, you'd have a reason why the war was justified. With or without this conflict, there would be no peace in Iraq. Without this conflict, though, no one here would utter care.
So it isn't really about 'peace', is it? Like France, many would prefer the Middle East to be a ghetto, where no one ever answers a 911 call, and the people are ruled by criminals. Third world countries should neither be seen, nor heard, they should just export quietly, and how they get it done is none of our business. Those days are happily over, i think.
*******************
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/72224.htm
"I think this time Irak will treat them different. After all, they may want to prove the World that they're not such bad guys after all. That's also why I think that even if they do have chemical weapons, they won't use them, and leave them well hidden. I think they know they'll lose the war, and their only small hope is to show the US was wrong to attack them in the first place."
If you didn't discount them, you'd have a reason why the war was justified. With or without this conflict, there would be no peace in Iraq. Without this conflict, though, no one here would utter care.
So it isn't really about 'peace', is it? Like France, many would prefer the Middle East to be a ghetto, where no one ever answers a 911 call, and the people are ruled by criminals. Third world countries should neither be seen, nor heard, they should just export quietly, and how they get it done is none of our business. Those days are happily over, i think.
*******************
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/72224.htm
"I think this time Irak will treat them different. After all, they may want to prove the World that they're not such bad guys after all. That's also why I think that even if they do have chemical weapons, they won't use them, and leave them well hidden. I think they know they'll lose the war, and their only small hope is to show the US was wrong to attack them in the first place."
JamMeister33
Reply #1120 Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:56 PM
Reply #1120 Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:56 PM
All of the peace mongers might consider taking their heads out of the sand and clearing their eyes and ears and minds and realize that some things, however distasteful, MUST be dealt with. Failing that, they should at least lend moral support to the troops who are risking their lives every day to make this world a better place for everyone.
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Reply #1101 Sunday, March 30, 2003 12:39 AM
joetheblow goes to bed and hopes this ends soon.