US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
opps
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Bangkokboy
Reply #922 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 12:57 PM
Reply #922 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 12:57 PM
The real intent behind President Ford's executive order was to prevent the nuclear superpowers from assassinating each others' leaders and possibly triggering a nuclear war thereby. Because conventional counterrattack of one superpower against the other was totally unmanageable, that left only lobbing a nuke or doing absolutely nothing in response to an assassination. we had "off the record" agreement from the Soviets on this point, but never from the Red Chinese.
Bangkokboy
Reply #924 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 1:16 PM
Reply #924 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 1:16 PM
that's allowed under President Ford's executive order. 
joetheblow
Reply #925 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 1:21 PM
Reply #925 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 1:21 PM
Its only been a week. I am afraid though, that the war will get allot dirtier for both sides in the coming days. The US/UK/AU will most likely decide to shoot anyone with a gun, and army soldiers who hide behind civilians will be killed... along with the civilians. I suspect numbers like the World Trade for Iraquis or higher by the 3rd week after an all out assalt on Bagdad from the South and North.
The US/UK/AU soldiers get killed mostly trying to not kill civilians and stuff. I think the all out assault will come when the brass realizes that they have to instill fear among those who will use terroristic tactics. But that decision will cost allot of lives.
I will be watching week 3 very closely.
The US/UK/AU soldiers get killed mostly trying to not kill civilians and stuff. I think the all out assault will come when the brass realizes that they have to instill fear among those who will use terroristic tactics. But that decision will cost allot of lives.
I will be watching week 3 very closely.
bakerstreet
Reply #926 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 5:07 PM
Reply #926 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 5:07 PM
wow, it's almost been 4 hours simce someone posted on this string...
...
...
...DOH!
...
...
...DOH!
Xerraire
Reply #927 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:47 PM
Reply #927 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:47 PM
Well then, bakerstreet,
let me keep this going with a headline from the war in Iraq that I can't understand why its not in boldface print everywhere:
Discovery of Chemical Suits Reinforces Concerns
CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar — A U.S. general said Wednesday the discovery of 3,000 chemical suits in a central Iraqi hospital that had been used as an Iraqi base raised concern that Saddam Hussein's regime was prepared to use chemical weapons.....
In addition to the chemical suits, the Central Command reported earlier that Marines found and confiscated gas masks and nerve gas antidote injectors in the hospital near An Nasiriyah.
let me keep this going with a headline from the war in Iraq that I can't understand why its not in boldface print everywhere:
Discovery of Chemical Suits Reinforces Concerns
CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar — A U.S. general said Wednesday the discovery of 3,000 chemical suits in a central Iraqi hospital that had been used as an Iraqi base raised concern that Saddam Hussein's regime was prepared to use chemical weapons.....
In addition to the chemical suits, the Central Command reported earlier that Marines found and confiscated gas masks and nerve gas antidote injectors in the hospital near An Nasiriyah.
WOM
Reply #928 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:20 PM
Reply #928 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:20 PM
He can't use chemicial weapons, remember he said he doesn't have any.
Xerraire
Reply #929 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:23 PM
Reply #929 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:23 PM
gee, wonder what all those suits are for? Halloween?
Bangkokboy
Reply #930 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:30 PM
Reply #930 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:30 PM
my grandfather didn't spend a lot of time telling us about his World War I experiences, but i do know that the ge, err.. enemy hit his unit with poison gas two times ( mustard gas blistering agent). The first time, aprrox. 25% of the soldiers didn't have gas masks because they'd thrown them away somewhere along the line. Panic reigned, several soldiers went crazy and were shot for trying to kill their comrades for their gas masks, and 30% casualties were suffered. When it happened again about 6 days later, everyone had a mask, no one went crazy, they suffered some treatable chemical burns of the exposed skin areas. No one died, no one had to go to the hospital. 
DavidK
Reply #931 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:57 PM
Reply #931 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:57 PM
The US has chemical suits and injectors and gas masks. Does that mean we're planning to use chemical weapons?
I saw some shots of Baghdad in the sand storm and thought it looked surreal and biblical with everything bathed in red light and the solid look the air had.
Tariq Aziz expressed his dismay that the Americans are accusing them of planning to use chem or bio weapons. He said he's afraid the US is planning to use them and blame Iraq. I wonder, if they do get used, is it possible to tell where they came from?
I saw some shots of Baghdad in the sand storm and thought it looked surreal and biblical with everything bathed in red light and the solid look the air had.
Tariq Aziz expressed his dismay that the Americans are accusing them of planning to use chem or bio weapons. He said he's afraid the US is planning to use them and blame Iraq. I wonder, if they do get used, is it possible to tell where they came from?
Xerraire
Reply #932 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 10:03 PM
Reply #932 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 10:03 PM
David
What you say is very distressing. Why do you live here if you feel your government is capable of that?
You know of Iraq's atrocities, you can't possibly put us in the same league
What you say is very distressing. Why do you live here if you feel your government is capable of that?
You know of Iraq's atrocities, you can't possibly put us in the same league
joetheblow
Reply #933 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:12 PM
Reply #933 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:12 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/26/international/worldspecial/26CND-MILI.html?ex=1049950800&en=c68bb0a5640c23e3&ei=5004&partner=UNTD
Hey I mentioned the uprising in a Iraq city... to bad it was probably stopped by thier own troops.
Oh and as wierd it seems for Iraq to have all of those chem siuts and gas masks being that there is no real potential of being attacked that way (well maybe gas), I am waiting for them to actually find these weapons. That is the proof in the pudding.
I don't think Saddam will use gas though, cause he wants to say that he doesn't have any and I am sure he want to play the role of victom here after he draws out the war and plays it out on TV
Hey Bakerstreet, everybody was just waiting until the 3rd week to see what happens like I said. Then they'll post like crazy cause of what is happening.
Hey I mentioned the uprising in a Iraq city... to bad it was probably stopped by thier own troops.
Oh and as wierd it seems for Iraq to have all of those chem siuts and gas masks being that there is no real potential of being attacked that way (well maybe gas), I am waiting for them to actually find these weapons. That is the proof in the pudding.
I don't think Saddam will use gas though, cause he wants to say that he doesn't have any and I am sure he want to play the role of victom here after he draws out the war and plays it out on TV
Hey Bakerstreet, everybody was just waiting until the 3rd week to see what happens like I said. Then they'll post like crazy cause of what is happening.
Bangkokboy
Reply #934 Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:31 AM
Reply #934 Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:31 AM
"Tariq Aziz expressed his dismay that the Americans are accusing them of planning to use chem or bio weapons. He said he's afraid the US is planning to use them and blame Iraq. I wonder, if they do get used, is it possible to tell where they came from?" - DavidK
i have erased my intended technical posting in regards to the above, and have only the following to say: " "
i have erased my intended technical posting in regards to the above, and have only the following to say: " "
DavidK
Reply #935 Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:15 AM
Reply #935 Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:15 AM
aw c'mon Xerraire, I didn't say the US would use gas, I just find the logic very selective. The US does have all these suits and stuff so why shouldn't Iraq have them too? Armies have these things... on both sides.
It's just like the Geneva Convention complaints from Rumsfeld applying to Iraq but not to us when we publically humiliated and villified the American Taliban guy and lots of other captured soldiers being sent to Guantanamo.
It sounds too much like propoganda when it's only bad when they do it but not when we do.
Aziz is the Iraqi foreign minister, so him saying what he did is their answer to the Pentagon issuing statements that Iraq is planning to use gas, which he claims they don't have. He was understandibly upset speaking to the UN today, his country is being invaded.
No I don't put the US in the same league as Iraq nor would I paint our military in a bad light. I do put Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney in the same league (or worse). They're some of the guys that gave Saddam $50 million right after he gassed the Kurds with gas we gave him. So why weren't they upset with him then?. I also think G W Bush is the worst president America has ever had... ever. But I felt that way before 9/11 and even more so after. And I still want to know who attacked us that day.
It's just like the Geneva Convention complaints from Rumsfeld applying to Iraq but not to us when we publically humiliated and villified the American Taliban guy and lots of other captured soldiers being sent to Guantanamo.
It sounds too much like propoganda when it's only bad when they do it but not when we do.
Aziz is the Iraqi foreign minister, so him saying what he did is their answer to the Pentagon issuing statements that Iraq is planning to use gas, which he claims they don't have. He was understandibly upset speaking to the UN today, his country is being invaded.
No I don't put the US in the same league as Iraq nor would I paint our military in a bad light. I do put Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney in the same league (or worse). They're some of the guys that gave Saddam $50 million right after he gassed the Kurds with gas we gave him. So why weren't they upset with him then?. I also think G W Bush is the worst president America has ever had... ever. But I felt that way before 9/11 and even more so after. And I still want to know who attacked us that day.
DavidK
Reply #936 Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:30 AM
Reply #936 Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:30 AM
Bangkokboy - I didn't mean to imply that our military would do that but on re-reading my post I can see where you would think that's what I meant. I was thinking of all the other groups that could benefit from gas being used, blamed on the Iraqis, There's quite a few that would have the capability to fake something like that and would love to see it happen. Like Iran, Israel, who knows, I can think of some others too. In the movie about the A-bomb in the soda machine at the SuperBowl (can't remember the name, Tom Clancy story) they figured out where the bomb came from to avert a world war. I just wondered if that type of technology really exists and would it be used in Iraq.
bakerstreet
Reply #937 Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:38 AM
I was talking to someone today about the war and they mentioned how it would 'show the world' when Iraq used WMD against our troops. I told them that there were people, some I know a quite well, that would just claim we did it to ourselves to frame Iraq. His opinion of such folk was pretty much my own. I have decided that the people we most want to appease don't deserve the effort.
I saw a figure today. In the two months following Normandy, 14,000 civilians were killed in the drive across France. I won't post any of the figures I have heard, because others here will counter them with Al Jazeera propaganda. Fact is, though, If Hussein can't get real civilian fatalities, he'll make his own.
Just know, ye of little faith, that when Saddam Hussein buys US uniforms, puts tanks beside elementary schools, and sends women and children out in front of his troops as human shields, YOU are the ones he *knows* he can count on. Every self-deprecating whine from within the US and ounce of derision from those *who were once* our allies is incentive for him to slaughter a few more civilians and blame us for it. And before you thumb your nose at that, remember where you are posting, and how many people can read this.
*****
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam
is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came
rollin' thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Reply #937 Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:38 AM
I was talking to someone today about the war and they mentioned how it would 'show the world' when Iraq used WMD against our troops. I told them that there were people, some I know a quite well, that would just claim we did it to ourselves to frame Iraq. His opinion of such folk was pretty much my own. I have decided that the people we most want to appease don't deserve the effort.
I saw a figure today. In the two months following Normandy, 14,000 civilians were killed in the drive across France. I won't post any of the figures I have heard, because others here will counter them with Al Jazeera propaganda. Fact is, though, If Hussein can't get real civilian fatalities, he'll make his own.
Just know, ye of little faith, that when Saddam Hussein buys US uniforms, puts tanks beside elementary schools, and sends women and children out in front of his troops as human shields, YOU are the ones he *knows* he can count on. Every self-deprecating whine from within the US and ounce of derision from those *who were once* our allies is incentive for him to slaughter a few more civilians and blame us for it. And before you thumb your nose at that, remember where you are posting, and how many people can read this.
*****
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam
is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came
rollin' thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
bakerstreet
Reply #938 Thursday, March 27, 2003 2:21 AM
Reply #938 Thursday, March 27, 2003 2:21 AM
As a lighthearted aside, a little while ago I read the line:
"CNN reported a column of elite Republican Guard units streaming out of Baghdad this morning toward US forces massed near the southern city of Najaf..."
and all i could see in my head was an army of orcs pouring out of the gates of Mordor. I didn't see the Two Towers til about a week ago, it's still too fresh. lmao.
Sorry, back to the fray...
*****
France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals. France is miserable
because it is filled with Frenchmen, and Frenchmen are miserable
because they live in France. -Mark Twain
"CNN reported a column of elite Republican Guard units streaming out of Baghdad this morning toward US forces massed near the southern city of Najaf..."
and all i could see in my head was an army of orcs pouring out of the gates of Mordor. I didn't see the Two Towers til about a week ago, it's still too fresh. lmao.
Sorry, back to the fray...
*****
France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals. France is miserable
because it is filled with Frenchmen, and Frenchmen are miserable
because they live in France. -Mark Twain
DavidK
Reply #939 Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:08 AM
Reply #939 Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:08 AM
Letterman is a funny guy.
I don't think there's any point in discussing this any further here. Believe it or not I take this stuff seriously. I think you would be surprised how much we ideologically agree. I despise brutal dictatorial political regimes. I also believe in the potential for human achievement. Right now I see the world being set ablaze and our leaders throwing gasoline on the fire.
Our nations greatest emissaries are the imigrants and students who return to their countries from America with a vision of what life can be. Most have a dream they carry back to an environment of repression and exclusion, too often implanted and supported by the very democracy that inspired them.
Rather than "stabilize" a region by arming a heinous dictator we should support the cause of idealism for other populations, since it is from idealism that America claims the legitimacy for her democratic doctrine.
When this conversation gets reduced to ridicule from knee-jerk jingoism the discussion goes nowhere. But it does provide a perfect mirror of Washington's utter and complete failure to face the world as a global community, embrace the world as a family of man sharing a fragile environment. We push unsustainable economic policies and repressive regimes to the detriment of entire populations to preserve the most imperfect and heartless interpretation of America... a nation that wants it all at any cost.
Jingoism has a very hollow ring to me. It's usually masking a very un-American desire to look the other way while injustice and greed pave another highway for unbridled consumption and waste to drive us to oblivion.
But other than that I'm really a nice guy with a very positive outlook on life and hope for the future...
I don't think there's any point in discussing this any further here. Believe it or not I take this stuff seriously. I think you would be surprised how much we ideologically agree. I despise brutal dictatorial political regimes. I also believe in the potential for human achievement. Right now I see the world being set ablaze and our leaders throwing gasoline on the fire.
Our nations greatest emissaries are the imigrants and students who return to their countries from America with a vision of what life can be. Most have a dream they carry back to an environment of repression and exclusion, too often implanted and supported by the very democracy that inspired them.
Rather than "stabilize" a region by arming a heinous dictator we should support the cause of idealism for other populations, since it is from idealism that America claims the legitimacy for her democratic doctrine.
When this conversation gets reduced to ridicule from knee-jerk jingoism the discussion goes nowhere. But it does provide a perfect mirror of Washington's utter and complete failure to face the world as a global community, embrace the world as a family of man sharing a fragile environment. We push unsustainable economic policies and repressive regimes to the detriment of entire populations to preserve the most imperfect and heartless interpretation of America... a nation that wants it all at any cost.
Jingoism has a very hollow ring to me. It's usually masking a very un-American desire to look the other way while injustice and greed pave another highway for unbridled consumption and waste to drive us to oblivion.
But other than that I'm really a nice guy with a very positive outlook on life and hope for the future...
DavidK
Reply #940 Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:25 AM
Reply #940 Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:25 AM
"Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton
Some books I would highly recommend:
"When Corporations Rule the World" by David Korten
"Betrayal of Trust" by Laurie Garrett
"The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Pallast
"Body of Secrets" by James Bamford
"Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser
If you make it through those then try:
"Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines" by W.Y. Evans-Wentz
I guarantee you'll have a deeper appreciation for 'Shock n Awe" as a political disguise, and the manipulation of world events. Had a profound effect on me...
Some books I would highly recommend:
"When Corporations Rule the World" by David Korten
"Betrayal of Trust" by Laurie Garrett
"The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Pallast
"Body of Secrets" by James Bamford
"Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser
If you make it through those then try:
"Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines" by W.Y. Evans-Wentz
I guarantee you'll have a deeper appreciation for 'Shock n Awe" as a political disguise, and the manipulation of world events. Had a profound effect on me...
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Reply #921 Wednesday, March 26, 2003 12:48 PM