US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
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Frogboy
Reply #182 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:48 AM
Reply #182 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:48 AM
It doesn't matter to me whether a country is socialist or not. What does matter to me is that that goverment is responsible to its people. The EU's design is socialist AND not responsible to the people.
Thibaud: Again, it's not a matter of France not agreeing. It's a matter of France actively trying to thwart US efforts. Such as lobbying Turkey to not let the US use its air bases there. That is not how an ally acts.
Regarding Ivory Coast: Your argument could be used on Iraq then. The US has an agreement that states that the US can go back in if Iraq fails to disarm. The US has been patrolling the skies of Iraq for a decade now.
And from what I've seen, French presence in Ivory Coast isn't appreciated by the natives.
Thibaud: Again, it's not a matter of France not agreeing. It's a matter of France actively trying to thwart US efforts. Such as lobbying Turkey to not let the US use its air bases there. That is not how an ally acts.
Regarding Ivory Coast: Your argument could be used on Iraq then. The US has an agreement that states that the US can go back in if Iraq fails to disarm. The US has been patrolling the skies of Iraq for a decade now.
And from what I've seen, French presence in Ivory Coast isn't appreciated by the natives.
Lecrayon
Reply #183 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:50 AM
Reply #183 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:50 AM
Frogboy, our socialistic society is a democracy too. In our country we have more than two parties, and the outcome of our elections make parties to negotiate about the policies and forming of the government. I agree with Thibaud, but it is useless. Europe hasn't been happy with your president since he was elected, he has managed since his presidency to decay the goodwill the US has built since WW2. A president that says: Anyone that is not with us is against us, and then I see people react the same way, isn't a real good basis to earn trust. It is even scary. You are good and I am bad. As I said I accept your the way you feel and your point of view, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your stance. Now that makes me bad. Very scary.
Thibaud
Reply #184 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:57 AM
Reply #184 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:57 AM
frogboy,
"French presence in Ivory Coast isn't appreciated by the natives" .. hmm, are you sure that US one in Cuba is appreciated by the natives ?
If Turkey changed his mind, it has nothing to deal with France. Turkey is a parliamentary democracy that's why they need to vote to accept the US base on their land, so if they vote no, then it's just a ... democratic result.
"French presence in Ivory Coast isn't appreciated by the natives" .. hmm, are you sure that US one in Cuba is appreciated by the natives ?
If Turkey changed his mind, it has nothing to deal with France. Turkey is a parliamentary democracy that's why they need to vote to accept the US base on their land, so if they vote no, then it's just a ... democratic result.
Frogboy
Reply #185 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:01 AM
Reply #185 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:01 AM
First, when you say "Europe" who do you mean? I have friendsin Eastern Europe woh are pretty pro-US.
Secondly, I am talking about the EU constitution that is being floated around. It is NOT a democracy. Its leaders are appointed by a handful of individuals. Saying the EU is a democracy would be like saying that the US supreme court is "elected".
Lastly, no one is saying you are "bad". You and I can disagree with one another and there are no ill effects. The problem with France is that not only does it disagree with the US, which is their right, but they are working very hard to undermine the US. Tryng to get Turkey to not let the US use its bases there will cost Americans their lives. In effect, France's actions will result in the deaths of Americans.
Mexico doesn't agree with US actions either. But you don't see Mexico trying to pressure Turkey and Saudi Arabia to not let the US use bases there.
I have great fear for the people of Europe because I fear that the EU will be dominated by just a couple of countries. Look at your own post, you speak of Europe as a monolithic entity. Most European governments are on the US side. Of 21 countries in Europe, most of them side with the US.
And "good will" works both ways. You speak as if the US is losing out by not having the "good will" of say France or the Netherlands or something. But it goes both ways. You may no tlike Bush but he has overwhelming support by the American people. In a Reuters poll over the weekend, 40% of Americans consider France either an enemy or an unfriendly nation. That is going to have far reaching effects. I certainly consider France a friend. Not an ally but a friend.
Secondly, I am talking about the EU constitution that is being floated around. It is NOT a democracy. Its leaders are appointed by a handful of individuals. Saying the EU is a democracy would be like saying that the US supreme court is "elected".
Lastly, no one is saying you are "bad". You and I can disagree with one another and there are no ill effects. The problem with France is that not only does it disagree with the US, which is their right, but they are working very hard to undermine the US. Tryng to get Turkey to not let the US use its bases there will cost Americans their lives. In effect, France's actions will result in the deaths of Americans.
Mexico doesn't agree with US actions either. But you don't see Mexico trying to pressure Turkey and Saudi Arabia to not let the US use bases there.
I have great fear for the people of Europe because I fear that the EU will be dominated by just a couple of countries. Look at your own post, you speak of Europe as a monolithic entity. Most European governments are on the US side. Of 21 countries in Europe, most of them side with the US.
And "good will" works both ways. You speak as if the US is losing out by not having the "good will" of say France or the Netherlands or something. But it goes both ways. You may no tlike Bush but he has overwhelming support by the American people. In a Reuters poll over the weekend, 40% of Americans consider France either an enemy or an unfriendly nation. That is going to have far reaching effects. I certainly consider France a friend. Not an ally but a friend.
craeonics
Reply #186 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:05 AM
Reply #186 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:05 AM
Think of this: one country losing the good will of many versus many countries losing the goodwill of one. It's not the same.
paxx
Reply #187 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:06 AM
Reply #187 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:06 AM
Will EU leaders be elected by elected members? A bit like the US president is elected?
Frogboy
Reply #188 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:07 AM
. Hey Thibaud, if you want to agree that French action in Ivory Coast is the same as US action in Cuba then that's fine with me. Though again it speaks of your lack of knowledge on this subject. The US has a naval base there. It's not like the US is allowed to send its troops throughout Cuba.
But hey, how do you think France would react if the US sent troops into Cuba to "police" the countryside? Which is what the French are doing in the Ivory Coast.
France has been applying pressure to Turkey to get their government to vote against the US in using their bases. That pressure has come in th eform of whether Turkey gets to join the EU. Let me spell it out: France is actively working to thwart the US effort. The net result will be the deaths of US servicemen. It's too bad France didn't work so hard to defeat the Nazis. How many Americans died in World War II due to French collaboration? Fast forward to 2003 and the French are aiding another evil dictator.
Reply #188 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:07 AM
. Hey Thibaud, if you want to agree that French action in Ivory Coast is the same as US action in Cuba then that's fine with me. Though again it speaks of your lack of knowledge on this subject. The US has a naval base there. It's not like the US is allowed to send its troops throughout Cuba.But hey, how do you think France would react if the US sent troops into Cuba to "police" the countryside? Which is what the French are doing in the Ivory Coast.
France has been applying pressure to Turkey to get their government to vote against the US in using their bases. That pressure has come in th eform of whether Turkey gets to join the EU. Let me spell it out: France is actively working to thwart the US effort. The net result will be the deaths of US servicemen. It's too bad France didn't work so hard to defeat the Nazis. How many Americans died in World War II due to French collaboration? Fast forward to 2003 and the French are aiding another evil dictator.
Thibaud
Reply #189 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:12 AM
Reply #189 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:12 AM
frogboy,
"In effect, France's actions will result in the deaths of Americans". Wow, that one is great ! So we are responsible for war, then we are responsible as well for american deaths ! huh, what's next ? Chaos in the middle-east maybe ?
"It's too bad France didn't work so hard to defeat the Nazis" : Ok, for me topic is closed !
"In effect, France's actions will result in the deaths of Americans". Wow, that one is great ! So we are responsible for war, then we are responsible as well for american deaths ! huh, what's next ? Chaos in the middle-east maybe ?
"It's too bad France didn't work so hard to defeat the Nazis" : Ok, for me topic is closed !
Frogboy
Reply #190 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:12 AM
Reply #190 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:12 AM
Paxx, don't bother posting until you at least take a cursory glance at the EU constitution okay? Sheesh.
Craeonics - most European states agree with the US position. Secondly, the US is 50 states too. California has a bigger GDP and higher population than many if not most of the countries of Europe. So does New York, Michigan, Texas, Florida, and countless other US states. Sorry, if you want to equate Luxemberg with the US, that's your business. But it doesn't make for a compelling argument.
If you really feel strongly Craeonics, why not demand leaders who will take your beliefs and put htem towards concerted action. Demand trade sanctions against the US. Demand military intervention to protect poor Saddam.
Craeonics - most European states agree with the US position. Secondly, the US is 50 states too. California has a bigger GDP and higher population than many if not most of the countries of Europe. So does New York, Michigan, Texas, Florida, and countless other US states. Sorry, if you want to equate Luxemberg with the US, that's your business. But it doesn't make for a compelling argument.
If you really feel strongly Craeonics, why not demand leaders who will take your beliefs and put htem towards concerted action. Demand trade sanctions against the US. Demand military intervention to protect poor Saddam.
paxx
Reply #191 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:14 AM
Reply #191 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:14 AM
And also, what do you mean by most of the 21 countries in Europe side with the US? In general or in this particular attack of Irak?
Because I doubt it's the latter. I'd like to know the names of the countries who sided officially with the attack of Irak. If you mean that they side with the US in general, I don't think there is such a thing. Countries can be friends with another country, but it doesn't mean that they "side" with it no matter what. I don't think there is such a thing as a "side". Countries in the Europe (or the World) are not divided in two groups: for or against the US. Countries can take their own decisions by themselves when they need it.
Because I doubt it's the latter. I'd like to know the names of the countries who sided officially with the attack of Irak. If you mean that they side with the US in general, I don't think there is such a thing. Countries can be friends with another country, but it doesn't mean that they "side" with it no matter what. I don't think there is such a thing as a "side". Countries in the Europe (or the World) are not divided in two groups: for or against the US. Countries can take their own decisions by themselves when they need it.
Frogboy
Reply #192 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:15 AM
Reply #192 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:15 AM
Ta-ta Thibaud.
Facts are stubborn things. The US not being able to use Turkey is going to cost some Americans their lives. The fewer points of entrance the US has, the more dangerous. The more dangerous, the more casaulties. No one asked for France's "help". France instead has sought to hurt US efforts. And while you may find the historical facts loathsome, they are nevertheless true. Even during the cold war France sought to put itself as an intermediary between the USSR and USA. As if a moral equivalence existed between the two. France's political culture has long had a problem distinguishing good fromm evil.
Facts are stubborn things. The US not being able to use Turkey is going to cost some Americans their lives. The fewer points of entrance the US has, the more dangerous. The more dangerous, the more casaulties. No one asked for France's "help". France instead has sought to hurt US efforts. And while you may find the historical facts loathsome, they are nevertheless true. Even during the cold war France sought to put itself as an intermediary between the USSR and USA. As if a moral equivalence existed between the two. France's political culture has long had a problem distinguishing good fromm evil.
paxx
Reply #193 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:16 AM
Reply #193 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:16 AM
Frogboy, post 188 was a question, not an affirmation. I don't have the answer and you haven't given it to me.
paxx
Reply #194 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:17 AM
Reply #194 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:17 AM
"France's political culture has long had a problem distinguishing good fromm evil."
I should refer you to another post on that topic.
I should refer you to another post on that topic.
paxx
Reply #195 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:19 AM
Reply #195 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:19 AM
OK, case closed for me too.
Frogboy, sorry but I can't discuss this with you without loosing my calm. You are being extremely nasty in your remarks for France. Talk about evil. Your words hurt greatly.
Frogboy, sorry but I can't discuss this with you without loosing my calm. You are being extremely nasty in your remarks for France. Talk about evil. Your words hurt greatly.
Frogboy
Reply #196 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:22 AM
Reply #196 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:22 AM
Sure, here's off the top of my head:
Countries that have publicly stated their support for the US position:
UK, Spain, Italy, Poland, Bulgaria, Portugal, Albania, Croatia, Macedonia, Hungary, Romania, Lithuania.
These are just off the top of my head and these are ones who have, in writing, explicitly supported allied military action in Iraq even without UN sanction.
In addition to them there are the countries who would have supported military action if a second UN resolution had passed which includes: Czech, Estonia, Slovokia.
And those who are against or mostly against:
Germany, France, Belgium, Luxemberg, Netherlands.
Countries that have publicly stated their support for the US position:
UK, Spain, Italy, Poland, Bulgaria, Portugal, Albania, Croatia, Macedonia, Hungary, Romania, Lithuania.
These are just off the top of my head and these are ones who have, in writing, explicitly supported allied military action in Iraq even without UN sanction.
In addition to them there are the countries who would have supported military action if a second UN resolution had passed which includes: Czech, Estonia, Slovokia.
And those who are against or mostly against:
Germany, France, Belgium, Luxemberg, Netherlands.
Lecrayon
Reply #197 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:30 AM
Reply #197 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:30 AM
The thing is, whether you are pro-US or anti_US, it shouldn't really matter. But somehow it does affect us. I find that sad. And then people tend to give qualifications to each other. In trade you get sanctioned or some other measures are taken. When we speak of freedom, there really isn't any because one always wants to have its way. There is the difficulty. Gee, this thread goes quick. We might get along perfectly well together Frogboy, and I think you are an easy going person, but somehow when our governments take different stances we might start shooting at each other. That's what I meant. I've seen it happening in former Yugoslavia. Just because of a different descent. It still isn't a stable country. The EU will not work if it will be dominated by Germany, France and UK. It will simply fall apart. With Europe I meant the western countries.
Frogboy
Reply #198 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:35 AM
Reply #198 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:35 AM
Paxx -- I'm sorry if my words upset you. But I can say that a large percentage of Americans feel the way I do or much more strongly. Since I have a lot of friends who are French (the net being a wonderful thing) my views are at least tempered by that.
But facts are facts. France's actions have consequences. In 1986 when France forbid use of its airspace by US F111's in striking Lybia, it may have cost one of our pilots his life (no one knows if not having to fly around France would have made a difference but I suspect it did). When it comes to fighting evil dictators, France seems to consistently be the one who resists that.
If the French don't like these facts, I can only suggest that they try to change their actions going into the future. The US is going to liberate Iraq and when it does, I suspect that we will hear horror stories that will make us all cringe. And what will you say then? What will France say to the Iraqi people who, if France had their way, would still be suffering under Saddam?
But facts are facts. France's actions have consequences. In 1986 when France forbid use of its airspace by US F111's in striking Lybia, it may have cost one of our pilots his life (no one knows if not having to fly around France would have made a difference but I suspect it did). When it comes to fighting evil dictators, France seems to consistently be the one who resists that.
If the French don't like these facts, I can only suggest that they try to change their actions going into the future. The US is going to liberate Iraq and when it does, I suspect that we will hear horror stories that will make us all cringe. And what will you say then? What will France say to the Iraqi people who, if France had their way, would still be suffering under Saddam?
Frogboy
Reply #199 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:36 AM
Reply #199 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:36 AM
EU leaders are appointed. US Presidents are directly elected by the citizenry.
Lecrayon
Reply #200 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:43 AM
Reply #200 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:43 AM
The Netherlands are not quite against the US. We have provided the anti-scud weaponry to Turkey. Netherlands government would not take part in military actions against Iraq, unless there is consensus in the UN. There isn't. We take part in military action in Afghanistan though. Even though we are a small country and highly outnumbered by the people of the US it should not make a difference when it comes to feeling powerful. I have yet to see a government that felt very powerful that would still be humble to its people.
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Reply #181 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:37 AM
And BTW: I have nothing against a more socialist oriented direction. Canada in that way is way more socialist than the US. But I will look more deeply into the proposed EU constitution, but I greatly doubt it proposes a dictator as a EU leader.