Is it justified?
Monday, January 13, 2003 by @shu | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Is it justified? I mean the war against Iraq. Of course, the optimists may say, 'Look, it hasn't taken place as yet'. But it is clear to even the common observer that the Anglo-American governments are cranking up the war machine.
They are hell bent on taking unilateral action against a nation that is already destroyed by hunger and poverty, even after the UN weapons inspectors have found nothing. Doesn't this make their actions suspect?
Elsewhere, the N. government openly admits to having a nuclear weapons program, but no action is taken against them. The mere possibility of taking action too does not cross the mind of the very same leaders who threaten to blow Iraq into oblivion. Is it due to the fact that N. Korea possesses the capability to retaliate, or the fact that N. Korea does not have any oil reserves to quench the thirst of these oil guzzling, 'developed, first world' countries?
They are hell bent on taking unilateral action against a nation that is already destroyed by hunger and poverty, even after the UN weapons inspectors have found nothing. Doesn't this make their actions suspect?
Elsewhere, the N. government openly admits to having a nuclear weapons program, but no action is taken against them. The mere possibility of taking action too does not cross the mind of the very same leaders who threaten to blow Iraq into oblivion. Is it due to the fact that N. Korea possesses the capability to retaliate, or the fact that N. Korea does not have any oil reserves to quench the thirst of these oil guzzling, 'developed, first world' countries?
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@shu
Reply #102 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:11 PM
Reply #102 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:11 PM
I understand your concern with the Iraqi people's suffering. But wouldn't war bring more, larger devastation?
@shu
Reply #103 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:13 PM
Reply #103 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:13 PM
There might be an Iraqi citizen amongst our midst.
Imagine what he would feel, we discussing the bombing of his home from the safe and comfortable confines of our rooms.
Imagine what he would feel, we discussing the bombing of his home from the safe and comfortable confines of our rooms.
citats
Reply #104 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:14 PM
Reply #104 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:14 PM
In an ideal world their would be no arms... this is far from an ideal world ... the UN packs up and goes home ... leaving Iraq to grow and prosper... they say hind sight is 20/20... but we will ignor this... makes you wonder and maybe even worry about Kuwait, hmmm... the Saudi's have shown no alligence to Iraq... I wonder if the Kurds will be hanging as pictures at a museum some day. The Iraq's that are still being rounded up to this very min. just because they believe their should be a change at the helm... But the UN can be safe in the knowledge that they did nothing. 
@shu
Reply #105 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:17 PM
Reply #105 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:17 PM
I'd be all to happy if US invades Iraq without resorting to carpet bombing, because, evil as Saddam is, he is bound to use citizens as shields.
The US Troops go in, Saddam and get the hell outta there. No need to stay put in the country under the pretext of security and undermining the sovereignity of the Iraqis.
Otherwise, as of today, I suspect their intentions.
The US Troops go in, Saddam and get the hell outta there. No need to stay put in the country under the pretext of security and undermining the sovereignity of the Iraqis.
Otherwise, as of today, I suspect their intentions.
Doreen
Reply #106 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:20 PM
Reply #106 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:20 PM
yeah girls don't belong in this thread I'm sure but *sigh* what is going to become of us? (I hate this stuff)
Paxxy put it well saying he is "Human" before being anything else.
If more ppl would remember that and focus on the fact we are all the same and consider the hatred and pain they wish to inflict on the enemy as being someone they themselves love, none of this would happen but ppl always lose sight.
In this day and age if this keeps up, in the end there will be no place to draw a line down on to for us to call our space or home...
Paxxy put it well saying he is "Human" before being anything else.
If more ppl would remember that and focus on the fact we are all the same and consider the hatred and pain they wish to inflict on the enemy as being someone they themselves love, none of this would happen but ppl always lose sight.
In this day and age if this keeps up, in the end there will be no place to draw a line down on to for us to call our space or home...
@shu
Reply #107 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:23 PM
Reply #107 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:23 PM
Exactly Doreen. And women and children bear the brunt of a war. Men die leaving behind and orphans in their wake. 
Doreen
Reply #108 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:25 PM
Reply #108 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:25 PM
saddest part is I doubt it will ever stop... (until there is nothing left for us to start it over w/ again)
Iben
Reply #109 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:27 PM
Reply #109 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:27 PM
I don't Know how world war 3 will be fought but world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
Iben
Reply #110 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:30 PM
Reply #110 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:30 PM
I love every body I just go to work every day and break my Blank. 
@shu
Reply #112 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:34 PM
Reply #112 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:34 PM
Maybe we should learn somethinfrom ancient civilisations. they worshipped plants, animals and respected human life. They killed only for food. Call me pagan if you will, but if WWIII happens, we might go we started from. Wipe the slate clean and write all over again.
@shu
Reply #113 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:37 PM
Reply #113 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:37 PM
And sexx777. You asked what can this thread do. If this thread turns the opinion of even one person the other way, I'd consider it worthwhile.
Ande
Reply #114 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:48 PM
Reply #114 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:48 PM
Some bloke said "You never learn anything when your talking." There's been enough talking, nothing will be solved and nobodys opinion will be changed. If you have a serious problem with the situation at hand, see you local elected representive (That's what you pay them for)and that is where is starts. Not on a Skinning site, especiallly mine.
Now about this Toon XP. I bought it and I think it's very good. Opinions anyone?
Now about this Toon XP. I bought it and I think it's very good. Opinions anyone?
sex777
Reply #115 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:57 PM
Reply #115 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:57 PM
but what for??
me i am pretty sure then if irak dont have all the pipeline of petrol ....U.S.A will dont care about them !!!!!
why HO!! WHY u.s.a didnt finish the job in 1991 ....why they didnt catch sadam ....why sadam is again president of irak? ....why american did kill nearly all the native indian in america?.....why american did nuke 2 time japan (hiroshima , nagasaki )? they kill citizen woman and child and not soldier there!!! why good bless america ?????????????
all thats is conspirasy !!!!!!
to be honest .....all thats look like a very big black business and maybe more like a COMEDY or DRAMA !!!!!!!!
me i am pretty sure then if irak dont have all the pipeline of petrol ....U.S.A will dont care about them !!!!!
why HO!! WHY u.s.a didnt finish the job in 1991 ....why they didnt catch sadam ....why sadam is again president of irak? ....why american did kill nearly all the native indian in america?.....why american did nuke 2 time japan (hiroshima , nagasaki )? they kill citizen woman and child and not soldier there!!! why good bless america ?????????????
all thats is conspirasy !!!!!!
to be honest .....all thats look like a very big black business and maybe more like a COMEDY or DRAMA !!!!!!!!
wombat_1
Reply #116 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:42 AM
Reply #116 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:42 AM
As I have said once before Brad, WHEN ARE YOU JOINING UP?
For one with such strong (dare I say Fascist?) views on the 'might is right' side of the political spectrum, allied to your belief of the divine right of the US of A to meddle in the affairs of any country at any time, it would be only fitting for you to lead the charge against these warmongers and tyrants!
Of course, when your butt is NOT on the line being an armchair general is fine.
Put up or shut up, any of us who have seen active service will be very interested in your opinions once you find out that abstract theory is one thing, facing a person who will happily damage your person is a different game.
How about this scenario, a country (any country) does not agree with George Butch being "elected" by (possible)dubious means, as in the very strange Florida finale, by a lethargic population, perhaps only 50% of whom voted and maybe 25% 'elected' Mr Butch.
Said country decides to call on their allies to invade the US in order to remove Mr Butch from power ..... highly unlikely but an interesting hypothetical situation.
Mr Butch Senior and the coalition forces could have wrapped the game up some 12(?) years ago but lacked the gonads.
Would it be cynical to suggest that a failing economy (based on this weeks figures out of Wall Street) and an upcoming election campaign have a bearing on the present jingoistic rhetoric streaming out of Washington?
Course not!
Perhaps my cynical comparison of the US and Japan situation in 1940 to the present US v North Korea pushing and shoving routine is unjustified, but that is very much another (on the surface) US instigated power play.
Maybe the first place the US needs to clean up is the US of A itself.
Aside from drugs, guns, horrendous crime rates and those headline grabbers, medical care (OK, it's there for those with SSS), basic education and unemployment do not reflect well on the 'World's Policeman'.
Of course, a few wars would be a 'good thing' for the economy, industry aside, the unemployed and the unemployable would be welcome in the armed forces, basic cannon fodder is always useful.
So Brad, you go and get some hands on experience, buy the T shirt and you will have some credibility.
As for this particular Wombat, I give up on this board.
I am interested in graphics and skinning, not uninformed and jingoistic propaganda. >
For one with such strong (dare I say Fascist?) views on the 'might is right' side of the political spectrum, allied to your belief of the divine right of the US of A to meddle in the affairs of any country at any time, it would be only fitting for you to lead the charge against these warmongers and tyrants!
Of course, when your butt is NOT on the line being an armchair general is fine.
Put up or shut up, any of us who have seen active service will be very interested in your opinions once you find out that abstract theory is one thing, facing a person who will happily damage your person is a different game.
How about this scenario, a country (any country) does not agree with George Butch being "elected" by (possible)dubious means, as in the very strange Florida finale, by a lethargic population, perhaps only 50% of whom voted and maybe 25% 'elected' Mr Butch.
Said country decides to call on their allies to invade the US in order to remove Mr Butch from power ..... highly unlikely but an interesting hypothetical situation.
Mr Butch Senior and the coalition forces could have wrapped the game up some 12(?) years ago but lacked the gonads.
Would it be cynical to suggest that a failing economy (based on this weeks figures out of Wall Street) and an upcoming election campaign have a bearing on the present jingoistic rhetoric streaming out of Washington?
Course not!
Perhaps my cynical comparison of the US and Japan situation in 1940 to the present US v North Korea pushing and shoving routine is unjustified, but that is very much another (on the surface) US instigated power play.
Maybe the first place the US needs to clean up is the US of A itself.
Aside from drugs, guns, horrendous crime rates and those headline grabbers, medical care (OK, it's there for those with SSS), basic education and unemployment do not reflect well on the 'World's Policeman'.
Of course, a few wars would be a 'good thing' for the economy, industry aside, the unemployed and the unemployable would be welcome in the armed forces, basic cannon fodder is always useful.
So Brad, you go and get some hands on experience, buy the T shirt and you will have some credibility.
As for this particular Wombat, I give up on this board.
I am interested in graphics and skinning, not uninformed and jingoistic propaganda. >
wombat_1
Reply #117 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:50 AM
Reply #117 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:50 AM
And FTR, I have spent time in the US, I do like almost all the citizens I have met, and I admire many things about the country and the people.
However ...... "My country, right or wrong" is becoming very passé!
However ...... "My country, right or wrong" is becoming very passé!
paxx
Reply #118 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 5:56 AM
Reply #118 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 5:56 AM
That's the part I don't understand.
If without the consent of UN, under what authority could the US possibly attack another country? What is so special about the USA that they think they can take justice in their own hands?
When we are talking about the USA, England and Iraq, we are talking about 3 independant countries. None has, legally, more imprtance than the other. None has the authority to attack the other. None has been elected by any supreme authority the police of the World. It may not be perfect, one may not agree with it, but that role since post-WW2 has been given to the United Nations. So, if the olice of the World that we have don't give the mandate to anybody to attack Iraq, then anybody who does it behaves like a rogue country.
If I know that my neighbour beats his wife and I call the police about it, but the police decide not to do anything about it, am I in my rights to then take justice in my own hands and burst into the guy's home and shoot him down? Of course, the guy may deserve it, and the girl may be grateful I saved her, but is it still legal, or even right? What if there were children around and I accidently kill a child or two at the same time?
I am not saying Saddam is a nice guy. I'm saying the nobody has supremacy over another country and no coutry has authority over another.
Also, let us not forget thant there are probably a couple of dozens dictators that are just as bad as Saddam. The question is not and has never been about delivering the Iraki people, if it was the case, many other countries would have been freed already.
If without the consent of UN, under what authority could the US possibly attack another country? What is so special about the USA that they think they can take justice in their own hands?
When we are talking about the USA, England and Iraq, we are talking about 3 independant countries. None has, legally, more imprtance than the other. None has the authority to attack the other. None has been elected by any supreme authority the police of the World. It may not be perfect, one may not agree with it, but that role since post-WW2 has been given to the United Nations. So, if the olice of the World that we have don't give the mandate to anybody to attack Iraq, then anybody who does it behaves like a rogue country.
If I know that my neighbour beats his wife and I call the police about it, but the police decide not to do anything about it, am I in my rights to then take justice in my own hands and burst into the guy's home and shoot him down? Of course, the guy may deserve it, and the girl may be grateful I saved her, but is it still legal, or even right? What if there were children around and I accidently kill a child or two at the same time?
I am not saying Saddam is a nice guy. I'm saying the nobody has supremacy over another country and no coutry has authority over another.
Also, let us not forget thant there are probably a couple of dozens dictators that are just as bad as Saddam. The question is not and has never been about delivering the Iraki people, if it was the case, many other countries would have been freed already.
Jafo
Reply #119 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 7:56 AM
Reply #119 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 7:56 AM
Being a two-fingered typist [actually I have a full compliment, just can never get 'em all to work]...I'll keep it short, though I could reasonably say I've been around long enough on the planet to 'know' what goes on and could argue for hours....
Most people/countries don't 'fear' the USA, but neither can they 'ignore' the USA.
It is often better to truly 'see' the USA from without, rather than from within.
First-strike, or 'pre-emptive striking' was the major catch-cry with the M.A.D. brigade....[if you don't know what 'M.A.D.' means, ask your parents].
On THAT occasion, the USA decided it was more PC to be the respondent rather than the instigator.
Now, however, every possible justification is put forward to validate an about-face to what is, or is not 'PC'.
And you don't need to be an 'ex-grunt' to have an understanding of the concept of immediate personal conflict/violence, just a degree of intelligence and common sense...
I've always been wary of 'devoted nationalism/nationalistic pride' as it is not sufficiently distinguishable from 'fanaticism'.
Intelligent, observant, sceptical cynicism will put you in good stead.
OK, so the USA cops a lot of Flak.....but that's because they don't 'speak softly but carry a big stick', preferring to speak a tad more loudly...
Most people/countries don't 'fear' the USA, but neither can they 'ignore' the USA.
It is often better to truly 'see' the USA from without, rather than from within.
First-strike, or 'pre-emptive striking' was the major catch-cry with the M.A.D. brigade....[if you don't know what 'M.A.D.' means, ask your parents].
On THAT occasion, the USA decided it was more PC to be the respondent rather than the instigator.
Now, however, every possible justification is put forward to validate an about-face to what is, or is not 'PC'.
And you don't need to be an 'ex-grunt' to have an understanding of the concept of immediate personal conflict/violence, just a degree of intelligence and common sense...
I've always been wary of 'devoted nationalism/nationalistic pride' as it is not sufficiently distinguishable from 'fanaticism'.
Intelligent, observant, sceptical cynicism will put you in good stead.
OK, so the USA cops a lot of Flak.....but that's because they don't 'speak softly but carry a big stick', preferring to speak a tad more loudly...
Frogboy
Reply #120 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 9:24 AM
Reply #120 Wednesday, January 15, 2003 9:24 AM
No, Wombat, if I were fascist, I would delete your ass from this site for making such an offensive personal attack. Do you even know what fascism is? Or do you just apply it to everyone whose views don't fit your own?
Did I say "My country right or wrong"? No. I outlined a LONG list of carefully considered reasons why I think military action in Iraq is necessary. I followed it up with an equally long list of reasons why military action should NOT be taken in North Korea.
The US November 2002 elections were primarily about Iraq and Bush and his party won big time. Additionally, Bush already has EXPLICIT congressional authorization for military action in Iraq. So don't delude yourself into thinking that Bush doesn't have support for military action in Iraq.
Additionally, why is it that many people seem to think that the UN charter ONLY applies to the United States? Where was the UN charter last year when Spain attacked Morocco forces? Where was the UN charter last year when France sent troops into the Ivory Coast (another sovereign nation)? When are India and Pakistan going to abide by the numerous UN resolutions dealing with Kashmir? Hell, where is the outrage that North Korea is blatently violating any number of international treaties?
This is why your argument is so empty. Because it reeks of hypocricy. It is utterly unconvincing because you choose not to actually debate the issues but instead make blanket attacks against the United States, against people you disagree with (like me). The United States is already at war. That war began on 9/11. Take a poll of most Americans and you'll find that most consider Iraq a battle in the larger war on terrorism.
You may not agree with these views (obviously you don't). But if you're going to discuss them, at least 1) Educate yourselves on the issues you want to espout (such as the ridiculous claims about crime, health care, etc.). The standard of living in the United States is the highest in the year. The per capita GDP of the US is the highest in the world. Violent crime? UK has a higher level of violent crime than the United States. I'm not going to pursue this "America sucks" portion further because it's pointless to argue with someone who knows so little on the issue but is willing to make such wide, blanket statements.
If this discussion has shown anything, it shows that the intellectual honesty of the "anti-war" crowd is empty. At best, we see a bunch of moral equivalence arguments that don't even address the issues I raised. Some of you just pretend I never wrote the pages of reasons why military action on Iraq is necessary and why it's not necessary with North Korea. I posted this. I took time to explain my views. They weren't "might makes right". They weren't "my country is always right". They were a series of reasons based on now over year a year of consideration. And I get called a fascist. Disgusting.
Did I say "My country right or wrong"? No. I outlined a LONG list of carefully considered reasons why I think military action in Iraq is necessary. I followed it up with an equally long list of reasons why military action should NOT be taken in North Korea.
The US November 2002 elections were primarily about Iraq and Bush and his party won big time. Additionally, Bush already has EXPLICIT congressional authorization for military action in Iraq. So don't delude yourself into thinking that Bush doesn't have support for military action in Iraq.
Additionally, why is it that many people seem to think that the UN charter ONLY applies to the United States? Where was the UN charter last year when Spain attacked Morocco forces? Where was the UN charter last year when France sent troops into the Ivory Coast (another sovereign nation)? When are India and Pakistan going to abide by the numerous UN resolutions dealing with Kashmir? Hell, where is the outrage that North Korea is blatently violating any number of international treaties?
This is why your argument is so empty. Because it reeks of hypocricy. It is utterly unconvincing because you choose not to actually debate the issues but instead make blanket attacks against the United States, against people you disagree with (like me). The United States is already at war. That war began on 9/11. Take a poll of most Americans and you'll find that most consider Iraq a battle in the larger war on terrorism.
You may not agree with these views (obviously you don't). But if you're going to discuss them, at least 1) Educate yourselves on the issues you want to espout (such as the ridiculous claims about crime, health care, etc.). The standard of living in the United States is the highest in the year. The per capita GDP of the US is the highest in the world. Violent crime? UK has a higher level of violent crime than the United States. I'm not going to pursue this "America sucks" portion further because it's pointless to argue with someone who knows so little on the issue but is willing to make such wide, blanket statements.
If this discussion has shown anything, it shows that the intellectual honesty of the "anti-war" crowd is empty. At best, we see a bunch of moral equivalence arguments that don't even address the issues I raised. Some of you just pretend I never wrote the pages of reasons why military action on Iraq is necessary and why it's not necessary with North Korea. I posted this. I took time to explain my views. They weren't "might makes right". They weren't "my country is always right". They were a series of reasons based on now over year a year of consideration. And I get called a fascist. Disgusting.
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Reply #101 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:11 PM
we are all good people