Ripping & Piracy Double standard?
Sunday, May 5, 2002 by Istari | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I was check'n out the ripping melodrama on deviantart http://forum.deviantart.com/?tid=302966. Some girl uploaded a wallpaper that had a beautiful woman on it and the girl claimed it was her. When caught she denied it at first but the evidence mounted and she finally confessed to the rip. The thread mainly has people condemning her as a thief and worse.
All these people on their high horses got me thinkin, what % of them are using pirated software to make their artwork? How many of them are downloading pirated MP3's in the background while berating her? It seems like some of the people who prosecute rippers with the most venom are ones who proudly pirate stuff. Seems like a double standard to me.
All these people on their high horses got me thinkin, what % of them are using pirated software to make their artwork? How many of them are downloading pirated MP3's in the background while berating her? It seems like some of the people who prosecute rippers with the most venom are ones who proudly pirate stuff. Seems like a double standard to me.
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paxx
Reply #22 Monday, May 6, 2002 1:57 PM
Reply #22 Monday, May 6, 2002 1:57 PM
No one is arguing that both are wrong and illegal.
They are just two different issue altogther, with nothing in common other than both are wrong and illegal.
It's like saying that red and blue are the same. Yes, they are both colours, but yet, they are different.
They are just two different issue altogther, with nothing in common other than both are wrong and illegal.
It's like saying that red and blue are the same. Yes, they are both colours, but yet, they are different.
Griffinme
Reply #23 Monday, May 6, 2002 2:02 PM
Reply #23 Monday, May 6, 2002 2:02 PM
"Doesn't the law set out to make things black and white?"
by Woodbridge
The law also says speeding is wrong. Yet it isn't treated the same way as a planned murder.
jcg: If everyone stopped using illegal copies of Photoshop do you really think that Adobe would drop the price? Part of what makes MS Word THE starndard for word processing (I've seen figures stating 95% of all office, real world office not MS Office, documents are done using MS Word) is the fact that so many people made copies and took it home.
Would Photoshop still be the graphics standard if there weren't illegal copies floating around? How many people decide to buy it because they tried a copy at home first? How many people learn to do graphics from copies and then go on to buy it when they become professional?
I am not trying to say using illegal copies is correct, I just wanted to ask some questions for people to think about.
by Woodbridge
The law also says speeding is wrong. Yet it isn't treated the same way as a planned murder.
jcg: If everyone stopped using illegal copies of Photoshop do you really think that Adobe would drop the price? Part of what makes MS Word THE starndard for word processing (I've seen figures stating 95% of all office, real world office not MS Office, documents are done using MS Word) is the fact that so many people made copies and took it home.
Would Photoshop still be the graphics standard if there weren't illegal copies floating around? How many people decide to buy it because they tried a copy at home first? How many people learn to do graphics from copies and then go on to buy it when they become professional?
I am not trying to say using illegal copies is correct, I just wanted to ask some questions for people to think about.
Griffinme
Reply #24 Monday, May 6, 2002 2:11 PM
Reply #24 Monday, May 6, 2002 2:11 PM
Back to this black and white thing. The older I get the more I don't see things as black and white. Take the hacking community. Many tools that were developed by the hacking community are now seen as common administrator tools. The differances between the evil network cracking versions and tools for the resourceful net admin are one was often made by a teeneager sitting in his room and having it on your computer is sometimes considered probable cause by law enforcement types. The other was made by a software company and knowing how to use it might land you a job.
paxx
Reply #25 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:06 PM
Reply #25 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:06 PM
Griffinme: "The older I get the more I don't see things as black and white."
I know, I say often that age broadens your sight to a whole spectrum of shades of grey you never knew existed before.
I know, I say often that age broadens your sight to a whole spectrum of shades of grey you never knew existed before.
Maximillian
Reply #26 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:22 PM
Reply #26 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:22 PM
everyone is a pirate in some way or another.. judge not less ye be judged
AJCrowley
Reply #27 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:29 PM
Reply #27 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:29 PM
The question of ripping is also not really a black an white issue in my eyes. What about music that uses samples? No matter what the source, if the artist has put their input on it in some manner, then it is a unique work. Where do you draw the line? If something is inspired by the shape of a car, is it a rip from the person who designed the car? Obviously it wouldn't be considered so, but it is hard to decide where to draw the line between plagiarization of someone elses work, and where it is modified to the point where it is a unique work in its own right.
AJC
AJC
Woodbridge
Reply #28 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:33 PM
Reply #28 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:33 PM
"The law also says speeding is wrong. Yet it isn't treated the same way as a planned murder." by Griffinme
Punishment depends on the serverity of the crime. I would say murder is *way* more wrong than speeding. Might just be me tho...
Punishment depends on the serverity of the crime. I would say murder is *way* more wrong than speeding. Might just be me tho...
Frogboy
Reply #29 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:44 PM
Reply #29 Monday, May 6, 2002 4:44 PM
Someone claiming authorship of my skin isn't taking food off my table. Someone warezing my softare or having it on Kazah or whatever IS taking food off my table. And don't start on the "if they woudln't have bought it anyway..." because SOME of them would so the point still stands.
I think ripping is very bad. But I think stealing software is equally as bad.
Anyone uploading their skins made with a pirated version of Photoshop should not be frothing at the mouth demanding blood of someone who claims ownership of some wallpaper. Saying that it's wrong is fine - because it is. But the high and mighty attitude I've seen by some of the same people who don't think the copyright of software developers matter is what gets me.
I think ripping is very bad. But I think stealing software is equally as bad.
Anyone uploading their skins made with a pirated version of Photoshop should not be frothing at the mouth demanding blood of someone who claims ownership of some wallpaper. Saying that it's wrong is fine - because it is. But the high and mighty attitude I've seen by some of the same people who don't think the copyright of software developers matter is what gets me.
Jafo
Reply #30 Monday, May 6, 2002 7:26 PM
Reply #30 Monday, May 6, 2002 7:26 PM
Speeding and Murder are equally 'bad', as both fly in the face of socially applied/designed 'rules'.
Both are an attack on society and its sensibilities.
The immediate 'results' may be 'different', but there is always the concept that, for example, the 'murder' affects one person directly, and his family and friends indirectly, but the 'speeding' has the potential to do all of that on perhaps a wider scale, if it results in a collision/death/etc....
Both are an attack on society and its sensibilities.
The immediate 'results' may be 'different', but there is always the concept that, for example, the 'murder' affects one person directly, and his family and friends indirectly, but the 'speeding' has the potential to do all of that on perhaps a wider scale, if it results in a collision/death/etc....
Frogboy
Reply #31 Monday, May 6, 2002 7:51 PM
Reply #31 Monday, May 6, 2002 7:51 PM
I believe that there are many different levels of sin/evil/whatever. I think most people believe that murder is certainly vastly worse than speeding.
My quip is that sure, artists think that ripping is the end of the world but sometimes don't see why software developer see the theft of their work as a pretty darn big deal too and that the two are related - not taking intellectual property rights seriously.
My quip is that sure, artists think that ripping is the end of the world but sometimes don't see why software developer see the theft of their work as a pretty darn big deal too and that the two are related - not taking intellectual property rights seriously.
Woodbridge
Reply #32 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:21 PM
Reply #32 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:21 PM
Here’s a question that I think is a grey area....I have purchased Object Desktop and I run it on my home PC; all nice and legal. Now, my work has decided to bestow upon me a nice new PC with Windows 2k install and I was considering using WindowBlinds/Object Desktop on it, as I have gotten used to all the excellent skins that are available (sure beats the ‘classic’ look). The question is: since I have bought Object Desktop is it legal to install it on another PC that I use? Or does that need a separate licence?
Woodbridge
Reply #33 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:23 PM
Reply #33 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:23 PM
R.T.F.L
Read the flippin' licence Oh, that was the bit with the next button/I agree button on. I don't read them, I'm pretty sure most of us don't either.
Read the flippin' licence
Oh, that was the bit with the next button/I agree button on. I don't read them, I'm pretty sure most of us don't either.
Doreen
Reply #34 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:31 PM
Reply #34 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:31 PM
Well for me, "if" I reg'ed something, and I have 5 machines plus two at work, and I feel like putting it on all 7 as long as they are "MINE" no way I'm reg'ing 7 times...
if you do otherwise you must love to waste your hard earned money
if you do otherwise you must love to waste your hard earned money
migellito
Reply #35 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:34 PM
Reply #35 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:34 PM
hey tandis, long time no see
well, a bevy of interesting points and counterpoints here. yes, i agree that stealing a copy of something and plagiarizing something are two very different things. they are just both bad, as others above have said whether an individual sees one or the other as worse must depend on the specific occurance. plagarizing a term paper or a free skin or some other non-profit item is far inferior to, for example, the doors changing a kinks song a little and recording it as their own. the difference is in the millions they are still both wrong though.
there is also a difference in severity [moral, not legal] between stealing a copy of wb and stealing a copy of photoshop. that copy of wb can make quite a difference to a small developer. adobe makes the vast majority of their lucre from corporate accounts, on the other hand. but make no mistake, they are both wrong.
well, a bevy of interesting points and counterpoints here. yes, i agree that stealing a copy of something and plagiarizing something are two very different things. they are just both bad, as others above have said
whether an individual sees one or the other as worse must depend on the specific occurance. plagarizing a term paper or a free skin or some other non-profit item is far inferior to, for example, the doors changing a kinks song a little and recording it as their own. the difference is in the millions they are still both wrong though.there is also a difference in severity [moral, not legal] between stealing a copy of wb and stealing a copy of photoshop. that copy of wb can make quite a difference to a small developer. adobe makes the vast majority of their lucre from corporate accounts, on the other hand. but make no mistake, they are both wrong.
Doreen
Reply #36 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:54 PM
Reply #36 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:54 PM
mig can you answer Woodbridge's question? is that considered right to have one reg copy and install on several machines? I mean as long as they are all your machines why would you need an additional license? I'm curious myself about what dev's actually expect?
I know I won't reg anything twice, once is more then enough for me...
I know I won't reg anything twice, once is more then enough for me...
Doreen
Reply #37 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:56 PM
Reply #37 Monday, May 6, 2002 8:56 PM
or what, do they actually expect you to pay maybe a smaller license fee for your additional machines? how does that work?
paxx
Reply #38 Monday, May 6, 2002 9:10 PM
Reply #38 Monday, May 6, 2002 9:10 PM
I think Stardock's policy on such a case is that you can't run Object Desktop's software AT THE SAME TIME. Meaning that unless you can duplicate yourself and be both at home and at the office at the same time, then it's fine. In other words, if both computers are yours it's fine, but if it's your spouse or kid's, then you should buy a second copy.
Fortunately for me, my wife isn't interested in skinning and my sons are too young yet (although my 3 year old does have his own PC)
Fortunately for me, my wife isn't interested in skinning and my sons are too young yet (although my 3 year old does have his own PC)
Frogboy
Reply #39 Monday, May 6, 2002 9:54 PM
Reply #39 Monday, May 6, 2002 9:54 PM
If you have 7 machines you can install it 7 times. But you can't have all 7 copies in use by various people. It's like a book.
gillon
Reply #40 Monday, May 6, 2002 10:53 PM
Reply #40 Monday, May 6, 2002 10:53 PM
A few years ago I purchased a software program over the net, which cost $200, a fair bit. I downloaded it and installed it. when I was forced to reformat I found I could not use it again. I contacted the firm and they said that they were trying to prevent piracy. After several long distance calls and emails they finally sent me a copy of it on CD. But guess what..they didn't give me the CD Key #. After many more calls, I never got the reg from them. I ended up obtaining a crack from a warez site so that I could use an expensive program that I had purchased. Oh yeah, the program was an ocr program called TypeReader.
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Reply #21 Monday, May 6, 2002 1:18 PM
When one uses illegally obtained software its the same thing as someone porting a skin of yours without your permission. They may even give you credit but you have lost control of your it. Why is that any diffeerent?
Another thought, how much of the price of a piece of software is to recover the lost revenue from pirating? Probably not a problem to those who pirate since they don't pay either way. But I don't particularly care to subsidize theft.