Same but Different
Thursday, May 2, 2002 by jcg | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
In and amongst the statements made in Frogboy's thread regarding the Old Guard and New Blood, was some interesting statements that sounded much like stuff our parents used to say like "When I was your age I had to walk 20 miles to school in knee deep snow uphill both ways".
While this is understandable pride in the accomplishments of pioneer skinners that have brought skinning to the popularity it is today it seems also to illustrate a duality in the mindset of many skinners. The first might be sumarized as "Skinning today is too easy, resulting in less quality and more quantity" and the second is "Products like Skinstudio and WindowBlinds have brought skinning to the masses, it is no longer a province of an elite few".
Is it inevitable that, in the effort to make skinning more popular the talent gets diluted?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
While this is understandable pride in the accomplishments of pioneer skinners that have brought skinning to the popularity it is today it seems also to illustrate a duality in the mindset of many skinners. The first might be sumarized as "Skinning today is too easy, resulting in less quality and more quantity" and the second is "Products like Skinstudio and WindowBlinds have brought skinning to the masses, it is no longer a province of an elite few".
Is it inevitable that, in the effort to make skinning more popular the talent gets diluted?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
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davad70
Reply #2 Thursday, May 2, 2002 7:46 PM
Reply #2 Thursday, May 2, 2002 7:46 PM
Hmmm, brings to mind the similar argument regarding professional sports....that expansion has diluted the talent pool.
jcg
Reply #3 Thursday, May 2, 2002 8:12 PM
Reply #3 Thursday, May 2, 2002 8:12 PM
Actually I'm in WiseOldMan's column. With an influx of new skinners you're bound to get a lot of mediocre skins. But what I don't see a lot of is comments, constructive or otherwise. It seems that only the best skins get comments and that no one offers constructive criticism to the lesser efforts. When ls.net was going strong (sniff) they could be brutally frank, but I never thought they were being cruel. Are we ignoring the new skinners because we afraid of hurt feelings?
MikeB314
Reply #4 Thursday, May 2, 2002 8:35 PM
Reply #4 Thursday, May 2, 2002 8:35 PM
When I was in High School, 1989-1992, there was such a thing as 'alternative' rock music. My friends and I had this elitest attitude about our music, mainly because our peers had never heard of the bands we listened to. We thought we were so cool because, while our fellow students were still listening to the likes of Aerosmith and Van Halen, we had discovered underground rock like Jane's Addiction, Mudhoney, Smashing Pumpkins, and Nirvana.
But then, one day in my senior year, Smells Like Teen Spirit aired on MTV. That was it, alternative rock became mainstream rock within two years. Some of the great alternative bands continued to produce exceptional music, while others broke up or just disappeard. Now, it seems most of the new bands on the radio all sound alike. Apparently there is a formula for an alternative rock band, and following it is all you need to do to get airplay. But every once in a while, I hear something new that strikes me as truly original and I am drawn to it. And because of that, I am glad alternative rock music finally got all this attention.
I believe that this kind of evolutionary phenomenon has also occurred in the skinning world. When something cool and underground finally reaches the masses, there are bound to be lots of redundancies. But it is that type of environment that makes it possible for someone to create something better. How do you make the greatest album ever if you haven't listened to hundreds of albums yourself and learned a little somthing from each one? Maybe you learned something cool that you want to put your own spin on, and maybe you learn what not to do. Regardless, people learn from each other. Every great musician has idols, as does every great skinner. Without that sybiotic relationship, the greats would eventually die, and the craft would die with them.
This is just a little analogy that helps me relate to the old school skinning community. I thought I would share it in case it helps others relate as well. If you actually read all of this, I thank you for your attention.
But then, one day in my senior year, Smells Like Teen Spirit aired on MTV. That was it, alternative rock became mainstream rock within two years. Some of the great alternative bands continued to produce exceptional music, while others broke up or just disappeard. Now, it seems most of the new bands on the radio all sound alike. Apparently there is a formula for an alternative rock band, and following it is all you need to do to get airplay. But every once in a while, I hear something new that strikes me as truly original and I am drawn to it. And because of that, I am glad alternative rock music finally got all this attention.
I believe that this kind of evolutionary phenomenon has also occurred in the skinning world. When something cool and underground finally reaches the masses, there are bound to be lots of redundancies. But it is that type of environment that makes it possible for someone to create something better. How do you make the greatest album ever if you haven't listened to hundreds of albums yourself and learned a little somthing from each one? Maybe you learned something cool that you want to put your own spin on, and maybe you learn what not to do. Regardless, people learn from each other. Every great musician has idols, as does every great skinner. Without that sybiotic relationship, the greats would eventually die, and the craft would die with them.
This is just a little analogy that helps me relate to the old school skinning community. I thought I would share it in case it helps others relate as well. If you actually read all of this, I thank you for your attention.
Doreen
Reply #5 Thursday, May 2, 2002 8:44 PM
Reply #5 Thursday, May 2, 2002 8:44 PM
Is it inevitable that, in the effort to make skinning more popular the talent gets diluted?
by Skinner jcg - 5/2/2002 6:24:45 PM
my opinion: No
just means more skins to sift through to find the ones that were made w/ talent that's all.
by Skinner jcg - 5/2/2002 6:24:45 PM
my opinion: No
just means more skins to sift through to find the ones that were made w/ talent that's all.
Koasati
Reply #6 Thursday, May 2, 2002 9:35 PM
Reply #6 Thursday, May 2, 2002 9:35 PM
There are some really great skinners, that will probably never dominate the Top Ten.........they don't cater to the masses, so they will never be seen by the masses as cool.
So, like Doreen said.......the talent doesn't get diluted, there's just more clones, and stuff to wade thru.
So, like Doreen said.......the talent doesn't get diluted, there's just more clones, and stuff to wade thru.
Jafo
Reply #7 Thursday, May 2, 2002 9:40 PM
Reply #7 Thursday, May 2, 2002 9:40 PM
When I was in High School, 1966-1971, there was such a thing as 'alternative' rock music. My friends and I had this elitest attitude about our music, mainly because our peers had never heard of the bands we listened to. We thought we were so cool because, while our fellow students were still listening to the likes of Elvis and the Beatles, we had discovered underground rock like The Pink Floyd....
Nothing much changes....
Nothing much changes....
WOM
Reply #8 Thursday, May 2, 2002 10:46 PM
Reply #8 Thursday, May 2, 2002 10:46 PM
Once you have learned the programs and coding, the mechanics are all the same for every skin. Its the sounds, animations, design and pictures that makes the difference. Some will like it and some will not. If you cater to the masses you will keep it simple. If you do it to your liking you set yourself up for whatever.
jcg
Reply #9 Friday, May 3, 2002 12:10 AM
Reply #9 Friday, May 3, 2002 12:10 AM
Wise -
If you are really good, I don't know that your last statement holds true. Just as an example from my own stuff, I got a DD at deviantart for "Etone" which is a nice theme I guess but I really just did it to try out some things. I didn't even know I got it until Nuvem told me (I used one of his walls). I thought Tutone was a much better theme. Well its apparent that people at this site and DeskMod like Tutone better while at LOS my So Gray theme is my most popular theme and noone wants to know about the other two.
OTOH, there are people like treetog and Alexandrie who can upload something just about anywhere and can count on a boatload of downloads and comments. There work is hardly simple yet it is extremely popular.
If you are really good, I don't know that your last statement holds true. Just as an example from my own stuff, I got a DD at deviantart for "Etone" which is a nice theme I guess but I really just did it to try out some things. I didn't even know I got it until Nuvem told me (I used one of his walls). I thought Tutone was a much better theme. Well its apparent that people at this site and DeskMod like Tutone better while at LOS my So Gray theme is my most popular theme and noone wants to know about the other two.
OTOH, there are people like treetog and Alexandrie who can upload something just about anywhere and can count on a boatload of downloads and comments. There work is hardly simple yet it is extremely popular.
mephisto corugant
Reply #10 Friday, May 3, 2002 12:20 AM
Reply #10 Friday, May 3, 2002 12:20 AM
but then you raise the point of stagnation among users...
i mean, like jcg said, the likes of treetog and alexandrie CAN go anywhere and upload something and have it rake in the comments and downloads and what have you.
but is it more because the whatever is THAT amazing or that there's just name recognition?
that was one of the big things that was raised before the guiolympics, remember, was of name loyality. some skinners worried, and rightfully so, that people would vote based on name alone, whether a skin was good or not. i'm not saying that happened, but then again, who ever said brittney spears wrote a good song either?
i think this doesn't boil down to dilluted talent so much as it boils down to stagnation and just simple lack of caring amongst users and skinners alike...the users don't wanna care enough to search out the good or unique or experiments and the skinners don't wanna care enough to do the uniques or experiments because then they'll just be someone who releases every now and then and gets downloads while their stuffs on the first page of skins and that's it...
i mean, like jcg said, the likes of treetog and alexandrie CAN go anywhere and upload something and have it rake in the comments and downloads and what have you.
but is it more because the whatever is THAT amazing or that there's just name recognition?
that was one of the big things that was raised before the guiolympics, remember, was of name loyality. some skinners worried, and rightfully so, that people would vote based on name alone, whether a skin was good or not. i'm not saying that happened, but then again, who ever said brittney spears wrote a good song either?
i think this doesn't boil down to dilluted talent so much as it boils down to stagnation and just simple lack of caring amongst users and skinners alike...the users don't wanna care enough to search out the good or unique or experiments and the skinners don't wanna care enough to do the uniques or experiments because then they'll just be someone who releases every now and then and gets downloads while their stuffs on the first page of skins and that's it...
Jafo
Reply #11 Friday, May 3, 2002 12:45 AM
Reply #11 Friday, May 3, 2002 12:45 AM
Names such as 'Treetog' and 'Alexandrie' come with 'expectations' of a certain standard of work. You 'anticipate that based on existing record, prospective works 'should' be of high quality. What makes it frustrating for hacks such as myself is that I'm never disappointed. They always deliver...
It's all about 'reputation', not 'name recognition'.
After all, you can get a 'name' for poor quality work, and be easily recognised...
Mister Wise...my stuff is generally 'simple', but sure ain't appealing to the masses....
It's all about 'reputation', not 'name recognition'.
After all, you can get a 'name' for poor quality work, and be easily recognised...
Mister Wise...my stuff is generally 'simple', but sure ain't appealing to the masses....
jcg
Reply #12 Friday, May 3, 2002 2:47 AM
Reply #12 Friday, May 3, 2002 2:47 AM
My opinion and my point is that treetog's and Alexandrie's stuff is good. Proof is if anyone does a reasonable port their stuff it goes like hotcakes as well. There is something in their work of which few of the newer skinners can boast.
I just wish I knew what it was
I just wish I knew what it was
MikeB314
Reply #14 Friday, May 3, 2002 6:27 AM
Reply #14 Friday, May 3, 2002 6:27 AM
Good point, Craeonics. Now that you mention it, the skins I tend to use most are the ones that are part of a suite. There are quite a few nice WB skins out there for XP, but if they are accompanied by skins for my other apps, I am much more likely to use them long term. Case in point: Logika. Some people may shudder at the thought of paying money for a skin suite, but man, that thing is perfect. I can't imagine how much time and effort went into creating it, and as a skinner myself, I am more than happy to kick in 10 bucks to keep 'em coming.
I guess my point is, suites increase popularity and staying power. Some are so good, folks will gladly pay cash for them, even though there are dozens of free suites out there.
MikeB314 winks at Jafo as he slides Meddle into his CD player.
I guess my point is, suites increase popularity and staying power. Some are so good, folks will gladly pay cash for them, even though there are dozens of free suites out there.
MikeB314 winks at Jafo as he slides Meddle into his CD player.
Jafo
Reply #15 Friday, May 3, 2002 8:05 AM
Reply #15 Friday, May 3, 2002 8:05 AM
Jafo smiles back at MikeB314 as he chucks another Roger Waters on the WinAMP...
Yes, suites certainly are 'sweet'....and if you work at skinning...more than just one proggy....doing your own thing with all the main ones you use then you can create your own.
Eg... I have LiteSTEP, WindowBlinds, ICQPlus and WinAMP all covered...so effectively I have a 'suite', as they are the only things I have running that 'need' skins.
You don't really have to go quite as far as what the guys at Pixtudio do, but then they are catering for more diverse demands than just what I'd put on them.
Besides, part of the joy of appreciating their work is seeing how they have adapted the 'style' of graphics to match in each and every proggie's skin so perfectly...
Yes, suites certainly are 'sweet'....and if you work at skinning...more than just one proggy....doing your own thing with all the main ones you use then you can create your own.
Eg... I have LiteSTEP, WindowBlinds, ICQPlus and WinAMP all covered...so effectively I have a 'suite', as they are the only things I have running that 'need' skins.
You don't really have to go quite as far as what the guys at Pixtudio do, but then they are catering for more diverse demands than just what I'd put on them.
Besides, part of the joy of appreciating their work is seeing how they have adapted the 'style' of graphics to match in each and every proggie's skin so perfectly...
jcg
Reply #16 Friday, May 3, 2002 8:43 AM
Reply #16 Friday, May 3, 2002 8:43 AM
Me thinks I need to learn to skin some more apps Anyone know where I can look at a Winamp tutorial?
Anyone know where I can look at a Winamp tutorial?
craeonics
Reply #17 Friday, May 3, 2002 8:50 AM
Reply #17 Friday, May 3, 2002 8:50 AM
Prime rule of skinning: check the dev for the specs before asking questions.
http://www.winamp.com/nsdn/winamp2x/dev/skins/
Lazy youngsters these days... *grumble*
http://www.winamp.com/nsdn/winamp2x/dev/skins/
Lazy youngsters these days... *grumble*
Koasati
Reply #18 Friday, May 3, 2002 9:09 AM
Reply #18 Friday, May 3, 2002 9:09 AM
If you do it to your liking you set yourself up for whatever.
If you're not skinning for yourself, I think you're missing the point........
If you're not skinning for yourself, I think you're missing the point........
Caylynn
Reply #19 Friday, May 3, 2002 9:26 AM
Reply #19 Friday, May 3, 2002 9:26 AM
Although I have worked as a graphic designer, a web designer, and a web developer, I have still not mastered the art of skinning. So, personally, I do not think skinning is easy. I am thankful for all the wonderful skinners out there who create such beautiful skins for us to use, and I try to leave a comment whenever I run across a skin that I end up using a lot.
Anyhow, all that to say that although there may be more skins out there right now, the quality skins are still rare, imho. Of course, I may just be picky.
Anyhow, all that to say that although there may be more skins out there right now, the quality skins are still rare, imho. Of course, I may just be picky.
mephisto corugant
Reply #20 Friday, May 3, 2002 10:16 AM
Reply #20 Friday, May 3, 2002 10:16 AM
has anyone ever actually tried making a skin by committee around here?
i mean, i've done one skin that way, mostly because everyone and their brother expressed interest in it getting finished, and it was honestly a great feeling having people there through every step to help get some of the niggling details ironed out...but that was on neowin, where the community is a little tighter knit and more involved in general with those that skin...
could something like that even be done around here? cause i was always under the impression that skinners were doing something for the community, not just for themselves and letting the community peak in and gank whatever they give out...
i mean, i've done one skin that way, mostly because everyone and their brother expressed interest in it getting finished, and it was honestly a great feeling having people there through every step to help get some of the niggling details ironed out...but that was on neowin, where the community is a little tighter knit and more involved in general with those that skin...
could something like that even be done around here? cause i was always under the impression that skinners were doing something for the community, not just for themselves and letting the community peak in and gank whatever they give out...
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Reply #1 Thursday, May 2, 2002 7:42 PM