I think the issue with Stardock isn't whether or not they sell their software, but how. Well, mine is anyhow - but I'm not getting into that here

I'm probably way off base here and if I am so be it. I've been a user of skins and frequenter of skin sites for about three years now. I've only been actively posting and making minor contributions for about the past year, but am pretty familiar with all the players/thinkers on both sides of this issue (Brad, Shog, JC, treetog, alex, jier, 10c, jesh). It's always seemed to me that whenever these nazi, evil or moneygrubber issues come up that it's petty jealousy. Most of these people came into this scene around the same time. Some have become successful turning skinning into both a hobby and as a profession, others have tried and failed. It's not the way that you do it that matters most to these people...it's who is doing it. Brad is and always will be the biggest target because he's been most successful. As long as that's the case...Stardock, and all others who are aligned with them will always be "evil" to them.

Like I said...I could be way off base and underqualified to make the jealousy assertion, but that's the way it's always looked to me.

When they refuse to listen to logic and make any assertions that back up they're ludicrous claims (example: Shog refusing to admit that he was wrong about the whole VDE/Desktop X issue), it makes me believe that there is more at issue than freeware/payware philosophizing.

paxx has a really good point about the wallpaper

I think that anyone who claims that payware is evil is not taking a very mature point of view on the matter. Free Enterprise is good, m'kay? People have the right to charge for their service no matter what it may be. Charging for it won't always be a success, but it's the right of the author to do so.

I would be far more likely to pay for a subscription service that gives me a login to Pixtudio.com to download skin suites (hopefully a much wider range than is currently available), in much the same way I pay my OD subscription. Frogboy, you are right about the donation thing, it simply isn't effective, but personally, if I firmly support a product or a site, I'm happy (as I have done on wincustomize) to purchase merchandise in order to help out.

I'm glad to hear that the paid skins are doing so well, as I have nothing but the utmost respect for Treetog/Nuvem/Alexandrie, but at this point in time, the only skins from the suite I'd use are WinAmp and Trillian (if it's there, which thinking about it...I don't believe it is). That said, this doesn't offer great value to me.

Integer, your mysterious references to your "issue with Stardock isn't whether or not they sell their software, but how" has often intrigued me. It has often been proffered as a secret justification for your stance against Stardock and/or Wincustomize.com.

Since you are not 'getting into that here', why, then did you raise it yet again?

ICQ 59227163 ....I'd love to hear all the goss...

I would too. I think Integer has the key. Right or wrong, perception is what often counts as reality.

I think some of the more articulate people (I wish Plastic were here) like Integer could really put it in black and white in a rational way that would make sense. How did Shoggot, for instance, go from being an Admin of WinCustomize (yes, when we launched WC, there were 4 admins - me, shoggot, alexandrie, and l0c. l0c left for creative differences but very amicably, shoggot said he didn't have time so t-man and migeleto took over those 2 spots, both Stardock people which changed the direction of the site since all major changes are implemented based on a VOTE by the admins/moderators) to saying we're "Evil"? The first time I knew jier was unhappy with us was in a news item about the skin primer in which he compared me with Sam J of eFront - right out of the blue.

People do things for reasons normally. There is something in the way Stardock does things that rubs a certain percentage (it's all about percentages) the wrong way. I have often written this off as negative interpretation since I've not seen an articulate explanation (even Shoggot didn't substantiate his reasons for saying Stardock is "evil" with any facts).

That's a seperate issue from the freeware vs. payware discussion we're having here though. This issue applies across the entire spectrum of software (games, applications, utilities, etc.).

Jafo - you seem to be misinterpreting what I am saying. "mysterious references", "often proffered as a secret justification" - wrong. I know of practices that I find distasteful, but this is not top secret, it's freely available to all - and I have only mentioned this once in a heated debate back at DA, not "often" as you claim. I did not "raise it again" - all I said in the above post was that I have an issue with Stardock's methods of selling/promoting their software, I did not claim to have confidential information that will bring Stardock to it's knees - you are the one implying this, and you are the one that brought it up.

Do you really think it would do any good us getting together on ICQ? - we seem to be disagreeing far too much as it is, and with you being a friend of Brads, you are honour-bound to stick by his company.
If you still want a chat - let me know

Without knowing what those things are, how can we correct the things that rub you the wrong way?

Integer...yes I do still want a chat.
I enjoy talking to my friends...[and I do include you in that....my only issue with you is your change of name...confused the crap out of this old fogey for ages... ].
When I like to spout opinions and attitudes, I try to be in possession of as many facts as possible, or at least everyone's interpretation of the facts.
It's why I spend an inordinate amount of time on the various boards.
Horrifyingly, I read each and every single post to even the longest threads, because It is the only polite thing to do...to afford them as much heed and respect as I expect of them. {I rarely get it, but I expect it].

I'm not all that sure that I'm that much of a friend of Brad's.....I DO have his link on ICQ but can't say that I've even spoken to him on it. I probably communicate directly with you more than Brad.
What I CAN say, however, is that I respect him, and what he has done to and for the skinning 'community', and find it personally difficult to have an opposing stance against him...[OK, so sometimes I think he has a slightly blinkered devotion to America and its role in world affairs, but that's fair, equitable, and nothing to do with skinning or this site, anyway].
He claims he is 'old'. I DO, however take issue with that....cos it makes me 'ancient'...

As for 'honour-bound to stick by the company', I'm hoping that I reached my position here for qualities other than being an 'honour-bound sticker to the company', otherwise I was promoted erroneously. Being a member/employee of Stardock is not a pre-requisite for becoming an admin/wizop, many of those at that 'level' have no such connection.
My only link to Stardock is the account/credit card info I sent to contribute to Wincustomize.com in order to purchase CD compilations and Tee-shirts....

OK - it seems I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Here's my take on it (and remember - thats exactly what it is - MY take on it)

Stardock used to monitor the internet, don't know if they still do, but they did. I don't just mean check out a few pages here and there, I mean _monitor_. Everywhere that Stardock is mentioned, someone will turn up, gauranteed - why? Is it really so important? There seems to be an obsession with statistics, facts, figures - the need to know everything. It's mentioned in another thread here that they monitor all skin sites, again, in great depth, knowing every statistic from any given day/week etc..again - why? We all know how much people dislike the "big brother" attitude, well this is what comes across. I'll admit that it's not illegal, or immoral, but is it really nesseccary? It sends out the wrong message to start with.

Then theres this:-

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=szKOOHwDBHA.1912%40prospero.stardock.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Ddesktopx%2Bcnet%2Bbrad%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D3%26selm%3DszKOOHwDBHA.1912%2540prospero.stardock.com

(I have no idea if that link is going to come out ok)
This is you, Brad, asking your own registered users to visit CNET and vote for your software. Sure, you put across reasons for doing so, but they are null - all the reasons you give apply to every piece of software on CNET, not just your own. I also note that you didn't specifically ask for a positive vote - but what other vote would you expect from your registered users that frequent your newsgroups? The intentions are obvious, and damaging. It not only promotes your product, but in turn harms any competing products to yours, including the independent developer who you know I am a fan of supporting.
Then theres things like the skin primer. I'm sure most here will say that its a well written guide to the newbie, I expect that. However, with your other actions taken into consideration, it could also be claimed that it's simply a promotional tactic. It is, after all, aimed at the newbies - and most of the latter part is simply promoting windowblinds. If I'm being cynical, I could also point out the featured section here. You say this site is also aimed at newbies - the last featured app was convergence, and it was for many months I believe. Now it's WinXPSkins. Ok, newbie comes along "Ooh look, WinXP skins, I can get a new theme for my WindowsXP" - what does he find? I'll admit, that one may be a bit extreme, but hey, we've been discussing how your viewpoint can change your perception right?
My last point is aimed more at Brad than Stardock, and that is whats been called "ramming your products down peoples throats". Don't take this as an insult Brad, but you must admit to taking every opportunity to push your products on the (many) boards that you frequent. The TGSoft issue was a good example of this. Every time there was any publicity regarding it, you were there making claims etc.. that it doesn't do this, and windowblinds does this much better. It appeared you felt threatened by it, and were trying to discredit it in any way, whilst also promoting windowblinds.
Things like this only serve to make Stardock look bad, and divide the skinning "community" - as it has. Are you with Brad or against? It seem there is no in-between.....

Well, these are my feelings - I'm sure you all have your own, feel free to tell me, this isn't me ranting at Stardock - it's me responding to a request. I really didn't want to do it, but it seemed I had been backed into a corner. I dont claim that everything here is how you should see things, but it _is_ how I see things, be it biased or not. Some of the things here will seem trivial to you, but when they are all added together, surely you can see how some people might be affected.

I think now I will find out who the are the mature peole here and who isn't

Ugh - that was badly written......I really should have proof-read it.....

"This is you, Brad, asking your own registered users to visit CNET and vote for your software. Sure, you put across reasons for doing so, but they are null - all the reasons you give apply to every piece of software on CNET, not just your own. I also note that you didn't specifically ask for a positive vote - but what other vote would you expect from your registered users that frequent your newsgroups? The intentions are obvious, and damaging. It not only promotes your product, but in turn harms any competing products to yours, including the independent developer who you know I am a fan of supporting."

I think that was a measure to counter votes by the usual cnet visitor... Don't tell me you haven't seen them.

User: sfdfsfs
Rating: *
Comments: booga booga!

User: Eye own joo!
Rating: *
Comments: It sux and will kill your hard drive!!

Asking experienced users to vote objectively is hardly asking for positive promotion.

"Then theres things like the skin primer. I'm sure most here will say that its a well written guide to the newbie, I expect that. However, with your other actions taken into consideration, it could also be claimed that it's simply a promotional tactic. It is, after all, aimed at the newbies - and most of the latter part is simply promoting windowblinds. If I'm being cynical, I could also point out the featured section here. You say this site is also aimed at newbies - the last featured app was convergence, and it was for many months I believe. Now it's WinXPSkins. Ok, newbie comes along "Ooh look, WinXP skins, I can get a new theme for my WindowsXP" - what does he find? I'll admit, that one may be a bit extreme, but hey, we've been discussing how your viewpoint can change your perception right?"

I'm sure Stardock would have no problem including other forms of XP skins (such as visual styles) if TGT hadn't started taking pot shots at WB and even Brad himself from the get-go. Surely you remember their interview at DA.

"My last point is aimed more at Brad than Stardock, and that is whats been called "ramming your products down peoples throats". Don't take this as an insult Brad, but you must admit to taking every opportunity to push your products on the (many) boards that you frequent. The TGSoft issue was a good example of this. Every time there was any publicity regarding it, you were there making claims etc.. that it doesn't do this, and windowblinds does this much better. It appeared you felt threatened by it, and were trying to discredit it in any way, whilst also promoting windowblinds."

1. TGT's reps did everything they could to misrepresent WB's capabilities.

2. One of their reps even called Brad (by name, he didn't refer to Stardock the company, he said "Brad Wardell") "paranoid" simply because Brad took the time to defend his product after it was slandered all over the community by people who hadn't even used it. (Remember when Stardock forced a certain sitwe to remove itslinks to warez versions of SD's products? That's how that site's regulars retaliated, by getting behind Styles XP and dragging WB through the mud, often with no evidence upon which to build their arguments.)

"Things like this only serve to make Stardock look bad, and divide the skinning "community" - as it has. Are you with Brad or against? It seem there is no in-between....."

I don't see anyone here forcing people to choose sides. Except maybe the armchair demagogues at Custo, who insist on lumping anyone with a kind word to say about Brad or Stardock as a "Stardock kid."

"Well, these are my feelings - I'm sure you all have your own, feel free to tell me, this isn't me ranting at Stardock - it's me responding to a request. I really didn't want to do it, but it seemed I had been backed into a corner. I dont claim that everything here is how you should see things, but it _is_ how I see things, be it biased or not. Some of the things here will seem trivial to you, but when they are all added together, surely you can see how some people might be affected.

I think now I will find out who the are the mature peole here and who isn't."

If I didn't know you better I'd say that's flame bait

Wait, I actually DON'T know you... Uh... Nice to meet you

Integer that was very well written

now where is crae and that popcorn? oh shoot he is sleeping again!

Thanks, Integer....now I see your point of view...just means that I still want to talk, though...
I prefer more 'immediate' modes of discussion...that way threads and trains of thought don't get hijacked...

Im not going to get dragged into a debate with you about each individaul point Firestorm, I was simply answering a request, I mentioned several times that this was simply my point of view, and expect you to have yours.

Nice to meet you too

btw the only thing I really see in you Brad is a VERY motivated business man who also enjoys his job which happens to be in the business of skinning, I stopped trying to figure you out past that a long time ago...
(I have come to find out that you always seem fair)
Interesting though to watch how other ppl percieve you constantly
(Jafo can you spell check that percieve word?)
hehe

I agree with integer on the Ramming point when it's associated with the TGT Soft Issue. Also Brad can have a sharp tounge and not seem to realize it, especially when defending something that he is passionate about. The rest is just rediculas.

I think the entire issue is more related to the demise of the origional skinz.org than anything else though..

lean back and think with me...

Wb is at version 1.x Dx is still in beta, Skinz.org is THE skinning site. Everynew verison of WB is or beta of any stardock product is listed as big news at skinz.. Every one is for the most part happy...

Skinz dies.....

Wincusto rises and along with it comes Winxp and all the hype.. WB gets the Windows stamp of approval.(it's now a commercial product for the average joe instead of a hobby for a few)

Stardock now has a suite of desktop customization software and a development schedule that now freware author can compete with..

Stardock also has one of the 2 premier windows customization website that is getting publicity all over the internet and even from the evil M$..

Stardock is now the only skinning empire and currently there is no competetion... There fore it must be evil..

If skinz had nerver died and Wincusto had never risen then we would have all celebrated when the skinz.org new post revealed that WB 3 was windows certified and this conversation would not exist. (the site wouldn't even be here)

Stardock is a strange company, they run off the requests of the customer therefore they are driven to excell without direct competetion.


Though I would like to see some.....



Just a few random thoughts from TasT

no way Jafo! I want to interupt and hijack this thread and stuff while you guys talk... hehe

'perceive', Doreen...

Repeat after me..."I before E, except after C"....

I wish I would have heard that in my English class years ago maybe it would have saved me some face over the years! sheesh