After we die..
Wednesday, October 10, 2001 by Draginol | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
You know, on this website we've debated everything..
Well...not everything. We've debated politics. We've debated ethics. We've debated capitalism (many times).
But we haven't ever discussed religion. Can you believe that?
My son asked me this weekend what happens to people when they die. I copped out on it and said that I didn't know because I haven't died before.
But it got my wife and I thinking. What happens after we die?
Well...not everything. We've debated politics. We've debated ethics. We've debated capitalism (many times).
But we haven't ever discussed religion. Can you believe that?
My son asked me this weekend what happens to people when they die. I copped out on it and said that I didn't know because I haven't died before.
But it got my wife and I thinking. What happens after we die?
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Tarkus
Reply #22 Friday, October 12, 2001 1:05 AM
Reply #22 Friday, October 12, 2001 1:05 AM
misterME: So you think those hijackers really are in Heaven with all those virgins, huh?
misterME
Reply #23 Friday, October 12, 2001 2:21 AM
Reply #23 Friday, October 12, 2001 2:21 AM
Tarkus,
If they truly believed that's where they'd end up, then yes, I suppose they're in Heaven.
Regardless of how misguided we may feel their actions were, and no matter the pain and heartache they caused, if their belief was true, then so will be their fate.
The tricky point here is that the Muslim religion, on its tenets, sees such actions as unjustifiable and sinful. If any of those hijackers possessed the slightest doubt in their convictions, and thought that perhaps Allah would punish them for their actions, then I believe they're suffering the fate that goes along with that. If their actions were bourne out of hate and agression, rather than purely religious righteousness, then I daresay they're not lowering the number of virginal maidens in Heaven.
Faith and belief are slippery things.
If they truly believed that's where they'd end up, then yes, I suppose they're in Heaven.
Regardless of how misguided we may feel their actions were, and no matter the pain and heartache they caused, if their belief was true, then so will be their fate.
The tricky point here is that the Muslim religion, on its tenets, sees such actions as unjustifiable and sinful. If any of those hijackers possessed the slightest doubt in their convictions, and thought that perhaps Allah would punish them for their actions, then I believe they're suffering the fate that goes along with that. If their actions were bourne out of hate and agression, rather than purely religious righteousness, then I daresay they're not lowering the number of virginal maidens in Heaven.
Faith and belief are slippery things.
misterME
Reply #24 Friday, October 12, 2001 2:26 AM
Reply #24 Friday, October 12, 2001 2:26 AM
Crae,
It matters not. Since you believe that nothing comes after this life, I don't think making the distinction between man and animal is at all relevant for you.
I, on the other hand, believe I possess a soul; and while I love my two cats dearly, I don't think they possess souls. So I see a distinction. If, in fact, they *do* have souls, then I suppose they'll go wherever kitty-faith says they're supposed to go (catnip-covered fields littered with small defenseless mice and big balls of brightly-colored yarn, perhaps).
It matters not. Since you believe that nothing comes after this life, I don't think making the distinction between man and animal is at all relevant for you.
I, on the other hand, believe I possess a soul; and while I love my two cats dearly, I don't think they possess souls. So I see a distinction. If, in fact, they *do* have souls, then I suppose they'll go wherever kitty-faith says they're supposed to go (catnip-covered fields littered with small defenseless mice and big balls of brightly-colored yarn, perhaps).
adni18
Reply #25 Friday, October 12, 2001 3:01 AM
Reply #25 Friday, October 12, 2001 3:01 AM
misterME,
Everything that exist on this planet has soul, and in the end there is only ONE soul.
The difference is, how those lifes, (man,animal, plant and mineral kingdom), interpret the world, with a few words, their level of consciousness.
Everything that exist on this planet has soul, and in the end there is only ONE soul.
The difference is, how those lifes, (man,animal, plant and mineral kingdom), interpret the world, with a few words, their level of consciousness.
misterME
Reply #26 Friday, October 12, 2001 3:49 AM
Reply #26 Friday, October 12, 2001 3:49 AM
Hmmm. I don't agree. I think the whole point of life is to give souls a playground in which to interact with one another. If we were all aspects of the same soul, what would be the point?
A man can learn much more about himself from having a conversation with another than he can from staring into a mirror...
A man can learn much more about himself from having a conversation with another than he can from staring into a mirror...
T-Man
Reply #28 Friday, October 12, 2001 9:20 AM
Reply #28 Friday, October 12, 2001 9:20 AM
"I don't consider myself to be anymore different from my dog..." - craeonics
Sit Crae! Rollover! Goodboy.
Sit Crae! Rollover! Goodboy.
fearoffours
Reply #29 Friday, October 12, 2001 9:57 AM
Reply #29 Friday, October 12, 2001 9:57 AM
Count me in with the other Christians 
I believe in life after death. Hell is being without God for eternity, Heaven is being with Him for eternity.
I believe in life after death. Hell is being without God for eternity, Heaven is being with Him for eternity.
Elfkura
Reply #30 Friday, October 12, 2001 10:06 AM
Reply #30 Friday, October 12, 2001 10:06 AM
Well...here're the versions I've heard.
1. You go to Heaven and become perfect
2. You go to hell and burn for eternity
3. You go to Heaven and you become some sort of a god/goddess in training.
4. You go to Hell and the demons cuts off your tongue if you lied and cuts off anything else if you did wrong.
5. I've heard you resurrect and keep coming back to earth until perfect has been achieved.
6. I've heard you just wonder the earth for the rest of your soul life and make people freak out.
7. Some say you turn into vampires
Anymore?
1. You go to Heaven and become perfect
2. You go to hell and burn for eternity
3. You go to Heaven and you become some sort of a god/goddess in training.
4. You go to Hell and the demons cuts off your tongue if you lied and cuts off anything else if you did wrong.
5. I've heard you resurrect and keep coming back to earth until perfect has been achieved.
6. I've heard you just wonder the earth for the rest of your soul life and make people freak out.
7. Some say you turn into vampires
Anymore?
adni18
Reply #32 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:32 PM
Reply #32 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:32 PM
MisterME,
Did I wrote anything about mirrors?
Of course, there are mirrors but other mirors than those you mention. The mirrors beetwen Macrocosmos-cosmos-microcosmos, the mirrors beetwen soul and personality e.t.c. Think about it.
Think the souls like the cells of your body, but don't forget the relation they have with your Self.
It is not the right place for expounding theories and the english language does'nt help me for that.
Any way I like your thoughts
Draginol,
This not only a religion discussion, we are talking about our existence and I think that everybody is interesting about it
Did I wrote anything about mirrors?
Of course, there are mirrors but other mirors than those you mention. The mirrors beetwen Macrocosmos-cosmos-microcosmos, the mirrors beetwen soul and personality e.t.c. Think about it.
Think the souls like the cells of your body, but don't forget the relation they have with your Self.
It is not the right place for expounding theories and the english language does'nt help me for that.
Any way I like your thoughts
Draginol,
This not only a religion discussion, we are talking about our existence and I think that everybody is interesting about it
T-Man
Reply #33 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:39 PM
Reply #33 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:39 PM
"You go to Heaven and become perfect"
I know this is only a reiteration of a definition you heard but I just wanted to respond to that statement.
By going to heaven does not make you perfect by anymeans. Only God is perfect. If you remember, Lucifer was an angel. And as we can all see now, he was not perfect.
I know this is only a reiteration of a definition you heard but I just wanted to respond to that statement.
By going to heaven does not make you perfect by anymeans. Only God is perfect. If you remember, Lucifer was an angel. And as we can all see now, he was not perfect.
Elfkura
Reply #34 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:49 PM
Reply #34 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:49 PM
hehe..it's only what I've been told . Just stating it word for word they say .
. Just stating it word for word they say .
jtfolden
Reply #35 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:49 PM
Reply #35 Friday, October 12, 2001 12:49 PM
Well, if simply believing or not believing in something sets you up then I guess I'm partially safe. I certainly don't believe in hell. 
The concept of 'eternal punishment' doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I tend to think it would be extremely difficult for a normal human being to commit any true offenses against any god(s and goddesses) you might believe in. OTOH, I imagine a lot of those religious doctrines are great for keeping people in line who couldn't go around being 'good' on their own without the promise/threat of some sort of reward/punishment at the end of it all.
I have a friend who believes that anyone can become a god/goddess. Actually, she has some rather eclectic religious beliefs now that I think about it but they helped her survive two bouts with cancer when she wasn't expected to so I won't be the one to knock them.
The concept of 'eternal punishment' doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I tend to think it would be extremely difficult for a normal human being to commit any true offenses against any god(s and goddesses) you might believe in. OTOH, I imagine a lot of those religious doctrines are great for keeping people in line who couldn't go around being 'good' on their own without the promise/threat of some sort of reward/punishment at the end of it all.
I have a friend who believes that anyone can become a god/goddess. Actually, she has some rather eclectic religious beliefs now that I think about it but they helped her survive two bouts with cancer when she wasn't expected to so I won't be the one to knock them.
jtfolden
Reply #36 Friday, October 12, 2001 1:04 PM
Reply #36 Friday, October 12, 2001 1:04 PM
I've also heard others mention the idea that you finally become 'perfect' or your 'perfect self' in the afterlife. Perhaps it's a common belief, maybe just wishful thinking. lol
Of course, where T-Man might think such a belief is 'wrong' according to his own religion we should keep in mind that it may not be wrong for those of other religious paths.
Of course, where T-Man might think such a belief is 'wrong' according to his own religion we should keep in mind that it may not be wrong for those of other religious paths.
misterME
Reply #39 Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:03 AM
Reply #39 Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:03 AM
T-Man,
The idea of reaching perfection in Heaven comes from simple association in the Bible. Heaven is a place without sin. Sin is what makes man imperfect. Therefore, man is perfect in Heaven because he can't, by definition, harbor sin in Heaven.
That's the way I was taught, growing up Nazarene (a strict "holiness" Protestant denomination).
Of course, I've always had a hard time with this logic. You cannot be sinful in Heaven. Also, you cannot be unhappy in Heaven. But if you go to Heaven, and (say for instance) your wife doesn't, wouldn't you miss her? And be unhappy in her absence? And be concerned for the tormet she's suffering in Hell? (Assuming, of course, that you don't *want* you wife punished in Hell for all eternity...) It has always rubbed me the wrong way that Heaven makes you incapable of feeling the loss of a loved-one. It's almost like Heaven strips you of your humanity... No thanks.
The idea of reaching perfection in Heaven comes from simple association in the Bible. Heaven is a place without sin. Sin is what makes man imperfect. Therefore, man is perfect in Heaven because he can't, by definition, harbor sin in Heaven.
That's the way I was taught, growing up Nazarene (a strict "holiness" Protestant denomination).
Of course, I've always had a hard time with this logic. You cannot be sinful in Heaven. Also, you cannot be unhappy in Heaven. But if you go to Heaven, and (say for instance) your wife doesn't, wouldn't you miss her? And be unhappy in her absence? And be concerned for the tormet she's suffering in Hell? (Assuming, of course, that you don't *want* you wife punished in Hell for all eternity...) It has always rubbed me the wrong way that Heaven makes you incapable of feeling the loss of a loved-one. It's almost like Heaven strips you of your humanity... No thanks.
DavidK
Reply #40 Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:26 AM
Reply #40 Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:26 AM
Last time I died I didn't remember the whole experience but did bring the memory of my death in the form of a dream that reoccurred constantly while I was an infant.
Later in life I was lucky enough to have a Tibetan Monk take me through the whole experience conciously. It was refferred to as 'realizing the dream state'.
After death there was a void - absolute nothingness - except I was still aware. A tiny sensation in what seemed like a distant point in the void caused the sensation of motion, which caused an acceleration towards the point, which caused a skin to form around my awareness in relation to the motion which went extremely fast as I was pulled up and held upside-down by my feet in a bright room. And then I let out a cry that filled my lungs with air and made the world feel perfect.
Later in life I was lucky enough to have a Tibetan Monk take me through the whole experience conciously. It was refferred to as 'realizing the dream state'.
After death there was a void - absolute nothingness - except I was still aware. A tiny sensation in what seemed like a distant point in the void caused the sensation of motion, which caused an acceleration towards the point, which caused a skin to form around my awareness in relation to the motion which went extremely fast as I was pulled up and held upside-down by my feet in a bright room. And then I let out a cry that filled my lungs with air and made the world feel perfect.
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Reply #21 Thursday, October 11, 2001 8:00 PM