IP library questions/concerns
Wednesday, September 5, 2001 by plastic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I'm not trying to be an ass here, really. Grasshopper and all, yes, dearly (this for the few reminding me being anti-Stardock and all...), but don't wanna go that road, tiring and useless...
..but when desumu found this rip from Scrow in the IconPackager section (removed), and someone spread some concerns about using some of his glyphs here on the site (hey, he's a friendly guy, could well have given permission, it's not about that), me being an icon addict and all, I started browsing the library here (and yes, I need to get a life)... which leaves me with a lot of questions, vague ideas, concerns (and yes, a couple of what you could call "rips", but I'm not here to make anybody black, really).
In general, it has all to be called "clean". Authors are credited, period. When I first went through the library, two years back or so (before wincustomize), it wasn't. Not gonna held that up to anyone, my impression is someone took a tremendous effort, tracked all original iconists, decent job!
Also, in general, I guess latest 50/60 sets represent the somewhat recent stuff. Original work, ports (some edited) with permission, matching skin suites and such, uploaded to wincustomize (with user accounts, after that it's mostly accountid=0, which is because old IP library didn't work with accounts, right ?).
It's after page 15 or so (browsing per 5) I start wondering. Lots of authors I "know", someway. Lots of people on a Mac, sets originally done to accompany a Kaleidoscope scheme (I've inherited a skins library with 50% ports, for an obsolete app, still busy with permissions, lots of matching names). Or just the classic iconists. Getting somewhere now:
- found some sets by Scott Naness. Properly credited, but I never could get any permission from him, told me he'd like his stuff to stay his stuff,
- set(s) by Pierre Cavanna, no readme (he's got a site: http://www.iconstreet.com/ ),
- sets by Hideaki Kamada. Alive and well, but ever tried to contact him (?). Got two translated (Japanese) messages sent to him, never a response,
- the sets by Tal Sella/Scrow, did he really approve that ?
- a couple of profound and known "MacHeads" (Ilona Melis, Iron Devil) with sets. Made me think, hey, even they approved, cool ?!
- other people on the Mac that I know require you to put up decent credit (Albie Wong it's done with, but that accountid=0 could be improved, Takashi Izawa has got a site, I'm assuming there's more (don't know all these Japanese authors, can tell there's a lot of sets originating on the Mac (Kaleidoscope ?))).
- sets by Gedeon Maheux, no .url in readme. He's friendly and willing to permit anything, but does ask something in return: http://www.iconfactory.com/ !! One of the best/major Mac customization sites (!).
- sets by E2 DESKTOPmill (careful, plastic). I'm definitely NOT sure, and I can't really track down the icons, but I'm aware of at least one iconist disgruntled because his sets appeared on that site uncredited (deleted url...), there were wallpapers by Misery without credit too, are those checked ?
- sets by Enis. Once again, can't track down all icons, but there's some I know (and darn, those are just collections of "cool stuff I found on the web"...), not by him.
Done (?) - guess so. Pixelfucking, you say, yeah... prove me wrong, please, but this leaves me with the impression a good job was done at tracking/crediting the original authors, but no permission was asked. Even understand that, morals changed last years, we didn't really consider this kinda things years back. But if we're gonna be conscientious about skins, please don't leave the icons out, it's an art apart. If at least some of my concerns are not majorly exaggerated, consider drawing a line somewhere (?), maybe lose some of the old sets... I dunno, just felt someone had to say something.
..but when desumu found this rip from Scrow in the IconPackager section (removed), and someone spread some concerns about using some of his glyphs here on the site (hey, he's a friendly guy, could well have given permission, it's not about that), me being an icon addict and all, I started browsing the library here (and yes, I need to get a life)... which leaves me with a lot of questions, vague ideas, concerns (and yes, a couple of what you could call "rips", but I'm not here to make anybody black, really).
In general, it has all to be called "clean". Authors are credited, period. When I first went through the library, two years back or so (before wincustomize), it wasn't. Not gonna held that up to anyone, my impression is someone took a tremendous effort, tracked all original iconists, decent job!
Also, in general, I guess latest 50/60 sets represent the somewhat recent stuff. Original work, ports (some edited) with permission, matching skin suites and such, uploaded to wincustomize (with user accounts, after that it's mostly accountid=0, which is because old IP library didn't work with accounts, right ?).
It's after page 15 or so (browsing per 5) I start wondering. Lots of authors I "know", someway. Lots of people on a Mac, sets originally done to accompany a Kaleidoscope scheme (I've inherited a skins library with 50% ports, for an obsolete app, still busy with permissions, lots of matching names). Or just the classic iconists. Getting somewhere now:
- found some sets by Scott Naness. Properly credited, but I never could get any permission from him, told me he'd like his stuff to stay his stuff,
- set(s) by Pierre Cavanna, no readme (he's got a site: http://www.iconstreet.com/ ),
- sets by Hideaki Kamada. Alive and well, but ever tried to contact him (?). Got two translated (Japanese) messages sent to him, never a response,
- the sets by Tal Sella/Scrow, did he really approve that ?
- a couple of profound and known "MacHeads" (Ilona Melis, Iron Devil) with sets. Made me think, hey, even they approved, cool ?!
- other people on the Mac that I know require you to put up decent credit (Albie Wong it's done with, but that accountid=0 could be improved, Takashi Izawa has got a site, I'm assuming there's more (don't know all these Japanese authors, can tell there's a lot of sets originating on the Mac (Kaleidoscope ?))).
- sets by Gedeon Maheux, no .url in readme. He's friendly and willing to permit anything, but does ask something in return: http://www.iconfactory.com/ !! One of the best/major Mac customization sites (!).
- sets by E2 DESKTOPmill (careful, plastic). I'm definitely NOT sure, and I can't really track down the icons, but I'm aware of at least one iconist disgruntled because his sets appeared on that site uncredited (deleted url...), there were wallpapers by Misery without credit too, are those checked ?
- sets by Enis. Once again, can't track down all icons, but there's some I know (and darn, those are just collections of "cool stuff I found on the web"...), not by him.
Done (?) - guess so. Pixelfucking, you say, yeah... prove me wrong, please, but this leaves me with the impression a good job was done at tracking/crediting the original authors, but no permission was asked. Even understand that, morals changed last years, we didn't really consider this kinda things years back. But if we're gonna be conscientious about skins, please don't leave the icons out, it's an art apart. If at least some of my concerns are not majorly exaggerated, consider drawing a line somewhere (?), maybe lose some of the old sets... I dunno, just felt someone had to say something.
ess-vid
Reply #2 Thursday, September 6, 2001 12:43 AM
Reply #2 Thursday, September 6, 2001 12:43 AM
I just want it on the record that unless I personally say otherwise (as in, I email or speak to Brad, Alexandrie, or JAFO myself), none of my work, in whole or part, is allowed on this or any of the other skin sites. Goes for everything: skins, icons, etc. So if someone swears up and down that they have my permission, trash their account :>
Didn't skinz.org have a similar system near the end, where the author themselves had to email shoggot or something? Don't think I'll get to see what I personally think is best (I feel that if a person didn't make something themselves, they have no right posting it under their name anywhere, regardless of credit given... no "ports", no OS rips, just original work), but stricter requirements like this would be a step in the right direction.
Didn't skinz.org have a similar system near the end, where the author themselves had to email shoggot or something? Don't think I'll get to see what I personally think is best (I feel that if a person didn't make something themselves, they have no right posting it under their name anywhere, regardless of credit given... no "ports", no OS rips, just original work), but stricter requirements like this would be a step in the right direction.
craeonics
Reply #3 Thursday, September 6, 2001 12:43 PM
Reply #3 Thursday, September 6, 2001 12:43 PM
Incoherent froglength post there, plastic, but are you trying to say that people claim they have received permission, but in fact have not and are lying?
plastic
Reply #4 Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:53 PM
Reply #4 Thursday, September 6, 2001 7:53 PM
Agreed on length and coherency, crae, but not what I'm saying. Read carefully and/or stick with the last paragraph, just wondering if the whole librabry doesn't carry a part of last years morals, or something...
Jafo, not so sure that would be welcome. Like I said, I'm not here to attack, but the idea is growing on me the older part of the library was put together by an icon enthusiastic, no bad intentions at all, just no permission asked. It's not uncommon, and wholeheartedly agree with your reflection on their (ab)use.
Jafo, not so sure that would be welcome. Like I said, I'm not here to attack, but the idea is growing on me the older part of the library was put together by an icon enthusiastic, no bad intentions at all, just no permission asked. It's not uncommon, and wholeheartedly agree with your reflection on their (ab)use.
plastic
Reply #5 Saturday, September 8, 2001 9:35 PM
Reply #5 Saturday, September 8, 2001 9:35 PM
Last words from me (promise, wanna let it die, k...), if you like. I'm having trouble relating this silence to the "fuzz" about Iphile, CustomEyes.. copyright goes two ways. This was lending a hand, guess not appreciated. Hehe, I know, won't hurt much besides my already "doubting mind" 
...
...
craeonics
Reply #6 Monday, September 10, 2001 7:33 AM
Reply #6 Monday, September 10, 2001 7:33 AM
Could also be that I only see newbies here these last few days. So short, isolated threads are more and more common.
migellito
Reply #7 Monday, September 10, 2001 11:14 PM
Reply #7 Monday, September 10, 2001 11:14 PM
hi plastic. most have actually been in the library for a long time, more than 2 years in some cases. they were originally upped by the people listed, but an account number system wasn't in place of course
i guess on looking through, the only one that makes me curious is 'bluegold' which is of course the icon set in yoshihiro kondo's 'another sugar plate iii.' i'll check it out
spaciba
i guess on looking through, the only one that makes me curious is 'bluegold' which is of course the icon set in yoshihiro kondo's 'another sugar plate iii.' i'll check it out
spaciba
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Reply #1 Wednesday, September 5, 2001 9:44 PM
I'm thinking that it would take an 'icon expert' to keep track of what is, and isn't correct/right/proper in the icon section.
I for one almost never use them....LiteSTEP sort of has no need for icons...
Now, if you were to volunteer to keep a watchful eye on any transgressions I'm sure everyone would be grateful.
I know icons and icon sets tend to get 'used', like fonts, without appropriate credit and/or approval....and I'm all for the correct regulation of their use, just like Walls and skins, etc....