i WANT this resolved.......
Friday, November 16, 2007 by Vampothika | Discussion: Community
when does a community skin become a community skin when the community is not involved? Where was the post to inivite skinners for harmoney and whitefire2?
there wasnt a post, it was created by maxstyles crew (and maybe a secret select few from the community)
and yet, suddenly its a community skin?
to me, a community skin is when someone posts they want to make a community skin, and people are allowed to volunteer their services to the skin. The WHOLE community knows about it....(unless they live under a rock) its not a secret and suddenly released as community skin.
yet again i ask, why is maxstyles skins being promoted as community skins when its clear that they are not.
This isnt a flame against Maxstyles.....I just am totally confused.........
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kenwas
Reply #142 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:34 AM
Having a differing opinion should not be construed as "not getting along". There is no hostility on this end for sure. Just for the point, common ownership and personal property are two different things. To sell something you must own it first or if you own it is common, you must get everyone's agreement to sell. I always viewed Community Skins as skins made as a combined effort by the community as a gift for the community. Only my view, certainly not a written WC description but one I think was shared by many. If that has evolved into a pair of folks making a suite and selling the core element (WB) then so be it. It certainly will not change my life one way or the other. I do think that it is a the very least a notable change as the for sale skin world continues to evolve. BTW, I have supported the masters program since its beginning.
Reply #142 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:34 AM
Can't we all just gey along
Having a differing opinion should not be construed as "not getting along". There is no hostility on this end for sure. Just for the point, common ownership and personal property are two different things. To sell something you must own it first or if you own it is common, you must get everyone's agreement to sell. I always viewed Community Skins as skins made as a combined effort by the community as a gift for the community. Only my view, certainly not a written WC description but one I think was shared by many. If that has evolved into a pair of folks making a suite and selling the core element (WB) then so be it. It certainly will not change my life one way or the other. I do think that it is a the very least a notable change as the for sale skin world continues to evolve. BTW, I have supported the masters program since its beginning.
killajosh
Reply #143 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:35 AM
But WC isn't a democracy, is it? No. It's a company owned and operated by individuals who have the right to set whatever standards and rules they choose. To me, it's not important enough to cough up a hairball over.
It's apparent (to me) that most people have a different idea of what a "community skin" is. But in the end, that decision is made by the higher-ups at WC, and that's part of their responsibility. You can't please everyone. Most of the time, it's hard to please a majority of people. Do you change the definition of "community skin" just because a handful of people don't think it was, in reality, a "community" effort?
I still can't figure out what the big deal is. So you don't think it was a community project because the general public wasn't invited? But it wasn't just a MaxStyles effort. Outsiders were recruited to assist in making parts of it. So where is this NOT a "community skin"?
Reply #143 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:35 AM
well, then that is not much of a community, only an audience.
But WC isn't a democracy, is it? No. It's a company owned and operated by individuals who have the right to set whatever standards and rules they choose. To me, it's not important enough to cough up a hairball over.
It's apparent (to me) that most people have a different idea of what a "community skin" is. But in the end, that decision is made by the higher-ups at WC, and that's part of their responsibility. You can't please everyone. Most of the time, it's hard to please a majority of people. Do you change the definition of "community skin" just because a handful of people don't think it was, in reality, a "community" effort?
I still can't figure out what the big deal is. So you don't think it was a community project because the general public wasn't invited? But it wasn't just a MaxStyles effort. Outsiders were recruited to assist in making parts of it. So where is this NOT a "community skin"?
kenwas
Reply #144 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:40 AM
There is no big deal in my book....just a discussion....
Reply #144 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:40 AM
I still can't figure out what the big deal is
There is no big deal in my book....just a discussion....
kenwas
Reply #145 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:46 AM
Reply #145 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:46 AM
Why do you keep bring up MaxStyles?
We are crossing posts...Two people making a suite with the core for sale is simply a different idea of a community skin than I think was held by many and is a result of the evolving world of pay for skins with which I have no problem. I do not think this is a world breaking situation nor have I presented it as such. I am not talking about MaxStles skins or any other particular skin, I am talking abut Jafo's definition of a community skin period.
We are crossing posts...Two people making a suite with the core for sale is simply a different idea of a community skin than I think was held by many and is a result of the evolving world of pay for skins with which I have no problem. I do not think this is a world breaking situation nor have I presented it as such. I am not talking about MaxStles skins or any other particular skin, I am talking abut Jafo's definition of a community skin period.
PoSmedley
Reply #146 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:59 AM
I wasn't gonna bring any of this up. I'm tired of getting beat up. But since it it's out here as it were..
Part of me says WC should back off on mentioning 'Maxstyles' if it's going to call it a community skin. BUT...I understand the trade off in promoting each others sites, etc. And people 'outside' of Maxstyles did contribute. My problem with it is having to 'pay' for a 'community' skin. It does seem odd. I also look at (and maybe this just complicates the whole debate) the fact that the Harmony WB was pushed as a premium skin on DA with a link to MaxStyles and sold on MaxStyles...before...it was available here. One 'could' look at the 'community' involvement as getting a bunch of folks to contribute their time and talent to help sell a skin. I don't know that a free version of it would be appropriate compensation considering what would or could actually be taken in on the WB alone, but I understand that that is each persons decision and choice.
I think the Easter skin and the Halloween skins that Avman organized are true community skins. Though WC says that White Fire is 'mostly the MaxStyles crew' efforts, I can live with calling it a community skin. But 'Harmony'...I personally feel (and strongly) that if any piece of it is being sold, it should not be called a community skin.
Reply #146 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:59 AM
I guess it is safe to say that the Harmony Master Skin was enhanced by community members that added to the suite therfore making it a full suite but I just dont see anything that has a cost attached to it as a community project
I'm a little confused here. If it's a community skin for the community then why does the community have to pay for it?
I wasn't gonna bring any of this up. I'm tired of getting beat up. But since it it's out here as it were..
Part of me says WC should back off on mentioning 'Maxstyles' if it's going to call it a community skin. BUT...I understand the trade off in promoting each others sites, etc. And people 'outside' of Maxstyles did contribute. My problem with it is having to 'pay' for a 'community' skin. It does seem odd. I also look at (and maybe this just complicates the whole debate) the fact that the Harmony WB was pushed as a premium skin on DA with a link to MaxStyles and sold on MaxStyles...before...it was available here. One 'could' look at the 'community' involvement as getting a bunch of folks to contribute their time and talent to help sell a skin. I don't know that a free version of it would be appropriate compensation considering what would or could actually be taken in on the WB alone, but I understand that that is each persons decision and choice.
I think the Easter skin and the Halloween skins that Avman organized are true community skins. Though WC says that White Fire is 'mostly the MaxStyles crew' efforts, I can live with calling it a community skin. But 'Harmony'...I personally feel (and strongly) that if any piece of it is being sold, it should not be called a community skin.
kenwas
Reply #147 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:59 AM
Thanks for the insight. Of course it is not a democracy but like any good company is interested in the opinions of their customers as a part as they policy development. That is one value of this community.
Reply #147 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:59 AM
But WC isn't a democracy, is it? No. It's a company owned and operated by individuals who have the right to set whatever standards and rules they choose.
Thanks for the insight. Of course it is not a democracy but like any good company is interested in the opinions of their customers as a part as they policy development. That is one value of this community.
WebGizmos
Reply #148 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:01 AM
Reply #148 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:01 AM
Ok....here's my personal opinion on this whole deal.
In my opinion...a "community skin" would be something that is announced as such in a way that "everyone knows" about it before its released...not after. Then...everyone has a chance to create and submit something...and as long as what it is thats created matches the skin it could/would be excepted/included with said "community skin."
To date...the only "community skins" that I have been aware of were/are HeavyMetal & Avman's Halloween skin. These were both "announced" in a public way to the "community" here at WinCustomize...at which point everyone was able to at least consider creating or contributing something to these skins...not necessarily guaranteeing that every contribution would be accepted/included with the skin...only as long as the contribution matched the skin.
Now....if a group of skinners get together and create something...which is perfectly fine...without announcing "in a public way" to "the whole community"...not just a comment in a forum thread that more than likely everyone won't see...that there is a community skin being created...thereby giving everyone in the community the chance to consider contributing something to it...I would consider that a "group project"...not a community skin...especially when the skin is being sold...which again is perfectly fine...but I would not consider that to be a "community skin." A community created skin...in my opinion would be something that would be created by the community and free to the whole community...not sold to the community.
From what I've read here...every skin that has ever been created...that has had someone other than the original creator add something to the skin is now/has been consider a community skin?
I think there needs to be a clearer definition of "community skins" and "group projects." One reason I say this is because I consider myself very much a part of this "community" but was completely unaware there was a community skin/skins in the works. It was only after the skins were released that I was aware of this.
And just to be clear here...I'm not angry/hurt/bothered by this at all...I have enough projects going on myself at the moment creating docks. I'm just saying that there needs to be a clearer definition of what a "community skin" is versus a "group project." I think if it had been called a "group project" skin that is being sold rather than a "community skin" that is being sold...nobody would have batted an eye at this.
So...shoot me if you must...but I can see why Kitty might have been confused by this whole thing.
In my opinion...a "community skin" would be something that is announced as such in a way that "everyone knows" about it before its released...not after. Then...everyone has a chance to create and submit something...and as long as what it is thats created matches the skin it could/would be excepted/included with said "community skin."
To date...the only "community skins" that I have been aware of were/are HeavyMetal & Avman's Halloween skin. These were both "announced" in a public way to the "community" here at WinCustomize...at which point everyone was able to at least consider creating or contributing something to these skins...not necessarily guaranteeing that every contribution would be accepted/included with the skin...only as long as the contribution matched the skin.
Now....if a group of skinners get together and create something...which is perfectly fine...without announcing "in a public way" to "the whole community"...not just a comment in a forum thread that more than likely everyone won't see...that there is a community skin being created...thereby giving everyone in the community the chance to consider contributing something to it...I would consider that a "group project"...not a community skin...especially when the skin is being sold...which again is perfectly fine...but I would not consider that to be a "community skin." A community created skin...in my opinion would be something that would be created by the community and free to the whole community...not sold to the community.
From what I've read here...every skin that has ever been created...that has had someone other than the original creator add something to the skin is now/has been consider a community skin?
I think there needs to be a clearer definition of "community skins" and "group projects." One reason I say this is because I consider myself very much a part of this "community" but was completely unaware there was a community skin/skins in the works. It was only after the skins were released that I was aware of this.
And just to be clear here...I'm not angry/hurt/bothered by this at all...I have enough projects going on myself at the moment creating docks. I'm just saying that there needs to be a clearer definition of what a "community skin" is versus a "group project." I think if it had been called a "group project" skin that is being sold rather than a "community skin" that is being sold...nobody would have batted an eye at this.
So...shoot me if you must...but I can see why Kitty might have been confused by this whole thing.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #149 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:29 AM
Reply #149 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:29 AM
In the end, the more suites labeled "community", the better we all are..as a community. 
excellent point Ken.
well, then that is not much of a community, only an audience.
excellent point Ken.
eieio
Reply #150 Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:41 AM
Exactly the point I was trying make earlier, Po.
Does anyone remember the skin Gabriel made (Glassteel) and asked for volunteers to contribute? It was given freely to everyone. I consider that a community skin
How about Project Onyx? It was a group project that didn't openly ask for volunteers but was also given away freely. I consider that a community skin as well, although I do see the difference from Glassteel in how it was started in regards to participation.
As kenwas said, it just seems a bit wonky if a Master and one other skinner get together, create say a Windowblind and a DX object and sell them and it is called a community skin.
Reply #150 Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:41 AM
I think the Easter skin and the Halloween skins that Avman organized are true community skins. Though WC says that White Fire is 'mostly the MaxStyles crew' efforts, I can live with calling it a community skin. But 'Harmony'...I personally feel (and strongly) that if any piece of it is being sold, it should not be called a community skin.
Exactly the point I was trying make earlier, Po.
Does anyone remember the skin Gabriel made (Glassteel) and asked for volunteers to contribute? It was given freely to everyone. I consider that a community skin
How about Project Onyx? It was a group project that didn't openly ask for volunteers but was also given away freely. I consider that a community skin as well, although I do see the difference from Glassteel in how it was started in regards to participation.
As kenwas said, it just seems a bit wonky if a Master and one other skinner get together, create say a Windowblind and a DX object and sell them and it is called a community skin.
Jafo
Reply #151 Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:43 AM
Reply #151 Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:43 AM
but like any good company is interested in the opinions of their customers as a part as they policy development. That is one value of this community.
Yep...
Jafo
Reply #152 Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:50 AM
Reply #152 Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:50 AM
To date...the only "community skins" that I have been aware of were/are HeavyMetal & Avman's Halloween skin.
There's quite a few more...
Crumbut's original Heavy Equipment suite was followed up by a second called 'Formula One'.....then there was one at Deviantart and one for LotsOfSkins. I did and/or amended [in the case of HE] the Litestep themes for each ...so they're fresh in my memory.
Those 4 in particular were quite large and in no uncertain terms 'community' skins.
More recent ones may be smaller...or even handled more privately but as long as they are a GROUP effort...of community members [plural] then community skins they are....
TheD2JBug
Reply #153 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:02 AM
Reply #153 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:02 AM
OK , since this thread has gone far longer than it should have.
In Soviet Russia , Issue resolves you!
In Soviet Russia , Issue resolves you!
x3lumin8x
Reply #154 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:34 AM
Reply #154 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:34 AM
I'm just curious, but, why is there two Web sites,Wincustomize and MaxStyles, that offer the same skins and themes? Wouldn't it be easier to label the skins and themes that were made by MaxStyles crew and keep them here at Wincustomize? One big happy family
WebGizmos
Reply #155 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:42 AM
Ahhh....then again you've been here longer than me you old fart.
Then like I said....most skins here could fall under the "community skin" thing. I've done docks for over 280 skins...plus others have also contributed things to some of those same skins. So the term "community skin" seems pretty loose in its definition.
Reply #155 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:42 AM
Crumbut's original Heavy Equipment suite was followed up by a second called 'Formula One'.....then there was one at Deviantart and one for LotsOfSkins. I did and/or amended [in the case of HE] the Litestep themes for each ...so they're fresh in my memory.
Ahhh....then again you've been here longer than me you old fart.
More recent ones may be smaller...or even handled more privately but as long as they are a GROUP effort...of community members [plural] then community skins they are
Then like I said....most skins here could fall under the "community skin" thing. I've done docks for over 280 skins...plus others have also contributed things to some of those same skins. So the term "community skin" seems pretty loose in its definition.
Jafo
Reply #156 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:01 AM
Reply #156 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:01 AM
I've done docks for over 280 skins...plus others have also contributed things to some of those same skins. So the term "community skin" seems pretty loose in its definition.
OK...call it/them 'group porting' then...
I think you can differentiate maybe between the odd ported skin [we all do them] of an individual skin release...eg my Antares Winamp of treetog's Antares WB....that's a port ...and a concerted effort on the part of 'several' skinners to create a GROUP of themed skins - ports [plural] ...that adds up to a SUITE.
Again...if one person does them ALL it's a SUITE ....but if it's a group effort it's a 'community skin'....
ilsabav92
Reply #157 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:08 AM
Reply #157 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:08 AM
I’m not really going to get into this, but if you (kittymalone) want a community skin, why don’t you just start one? That way it can fit all your “criteria” (although I do sorta agree with you about some parts).
killajosh
Reply #158 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:53 AM
Reply #158 Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:53 AM
I tend to agree with the term "group porting" more than I do "community skin". But any way you look at it, the facts still remain the same. Does it really matter, in the long run, if it's called a "community" project? That reads easier than, "A collection of skins and widgets designed by a group of individuals who got together to create something really impressive for the users of this website".
Takes up less space, too!
Takes up less space, too!
WebGizmos
Reply #159 Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:19 AM
Reply #159 Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:19 AM
I think I'll just take my meds now and get back to my docks! If anyone starts a community skin and wants docks from me....you know how to reach me! 
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Reply #141 Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:17 AM