WB Skin Quality these days
stop the madness.
Sunday, June 17, 2007 by meat | Discussion: Skinning
This post originally started as a comment on a recently created windowblinds skins but felt it was more suited for the forums proper.
Essentially, there was a page and a half of positive comments about a skin that, 2 years ago, people would have voted it removed if that power were available to them. Usually, a skin like the one I was about to comment on is rated very low - one or two stars regardless of the number of glowing comments and in spite of the guy that posts "HOW COULD THIS SKIN ONLY GET 1 STAR?!?!?!?!" Those folks that actually issue the stars ratings, typically, rate them according to how I would rate a skin which tells me that those guys or gals still have their heads screwed on straight and come from the same camp I do...more or less.
There's something to be said about the page and a half of positive comments, of course. I'm not a particularly picky skin chooser. Anything decent gets a try out. If I like it alot, it stays as my main skin for a long time or until a newer, better skin dethrones it. The fact that I seem to be the only one posting a negative critique (not a skin bash) tells me that either:
A: What people on wincustomize want, in regard to Windowblinds skins, is completely unlike what I grew to expect on here
OR
B: That there are an equal number of others on Wincustomize that share my opinion but simply keep it to themselves.
OR
C: That the above 2 explanations are due to a natural recession in the skinning community as a whole.
As I'm writing this, I'm applying more thought to it than I originally intended. As stated at the beginning, this was supposed to be a quick "Your skin is icky." comment but with way more tact. And as I think about it and consider my great dissatisfaction with the skinning community as a whole the more I understand IT. Aqua-soft.org's visual style/windowblinds section is all but dead. The most active post in the windowblinds section is for a skin that was released last year! The site is bustling with activity in the other departments but not as many as there used to be, say , 3 years ago or so. I think that we are in a lull and that one day, something interesting will come out and be really cool and inspire the hell out of people again. Or maybe a new program that everyone uses, will be skinnable and usher in a whole new era of skinning.
I haven't downloaded a Windowblinds theme from here in over a month because they have all become sooo GOOFY and silly and low quality.
I'm hoping that it's just a phase and that we can look forward to hundreds of high quality, well thought out, usable Windowblinds skins in the future...
...again.
Essentially, there was a page and a half of positive comments about a skin that, 2 years ago, people would have voted it removed if that power were available to them. Usually, a skin like the one I was about to comment on is rated very low - one or two stars regardless of the number of glowing comments and in spite of the guy that posts "HOW COULD THIS SKIN ONLY GET 1 STAR?!?!?!?!" Those folks that actually issue the stars ratings, typically, rate them according to how I would rate a skin which tells me that those guys or gals still have their heads screwed on straight and come from the same camp I do...more or less.
There's something to be said about the page and a half of positive comments, of course. I'm not a particularly picky skin chooser. Anything decent gets a try out. If I like it alot, it stays as my main skin for a long time or until a newer, better skin dethrones it. The fact that I seem to be the only one posting a negative critique (not a skin bash) tells me that either:
A: What people on wincustomize want, in regard to Windowblinds skins, is completely unlike what I grew to expect on here
OR
B: That there are an equal number of others on Wincustomize that share my opinion but simply keep it to themselves.
OR
C: That the above 2 explanations are due to a natural recession in the skinning community as a whole.
As I'm writing this, I'm applying more thought to it than I originally intended. As stated at the beginning, this was supposed to be a quick "Your skin is icky." comment but with way more tact. And as I think about it and consider my great dissatisfaction with the skinning community as a whole the more I understand IT. Aqua-soft.org's visual style/windowblinds section is all but dead. The most active post in the windowblinds section is for a skin that was released last year! The site is bustling with activity in the other departments but not as many as there used to be, say , 3 years ago or so. I think that we are in a lull and that one day, something interesting will come out and be really cool and inspire the hell out of people again. Or maybe a new program that everyone uses, will be skinnable and usher in a whole new era of skinning.
I haven't downloaded a Windowblinds theme from here in over a month because they have all become sooo GOOFY and silly and low quality.
I'm hoping that it's just a phase and that we can look forward to hundreds of high quality, well thought out, usable Windowblinds skins in the future...
...again.
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Fairyy~
Reply #22 Monday, June 18, 2007 9:39 AM
Reply #22 Monday, June 18, 2007 9:39 AM
So many things I could debate but I won't get into it.
Meat, I do see your point and your not really ' wrong' per se...
But, just that telling someone their skin is ' icky' serves no purpose at all.
You are correct to a certain degree and thats because so many of the older skinners are gone. But insulting the newer/beginner skinners is not going to improve anything.
I use very few WB skins. Im not into changing very often. I used Apocalypse's Xmas blind for a solid year....not because I was into 'Holly' but because it was ' usable'
All this transparency crap is just annoying to me but thats what the 'in' crowd calls for so 99% of the blinds all look the same to me now. I think thats why most of the old time skinners dont bother. There is little to create when 75% of the skin is invisible.
And while your right about those novelty skins not being usable for long periods of time, they are still wanted by a lot of people that like to change their Themes weekly/daily.
What is it that your looking for ? You want to be WOW'd
WOW only lasts a short time - its like a fix , then your looking for the next WOW.
Be happy with the older skins you have, learn to tweak them and try to find a kind word to those just learning to skin...because.......for most skinners it is a thankless job that doesn't usually get so much as a thank you even if the skin is in fact ' good'
Usually you see more of 'this is good BUT' could I get this in a smaller size and a different color and maybe could you redo those buttons cos I just don't like oval ones"
"Sure....I have no life anyway"
Meat, I do see your point and your not really ' wrong' per se...
But, just that telling someone their skin is ' icky' serves no purpose at all.
You are correct to a certain degree and thats because so many of the older skinners are gone. But insulting the newer/beginner skinners is not going to improve anything.
I use very few WB skins. Im not into changing very often. I used Apocalypse's Xmas blind for a solid year....not because I was into 'Holly' but because it was ' usable'
All this transparency crap is just annoying to me but thats what the 'in' crowd calls for so 99% of the blinds all look the same to me now. I think thats why most of the old time skinners dont bother. There is little to create when 75% of the skin is invisible.
And while your right about those novelty skins not being usable for long periods of time, they are still wanted by a lot of people that like to change their Themes weekly/daily.
What is it that your looking for ? You want to be WOW'd
WOW only lasts a short time - its like a fix , then your looking for the next WOW.
Be happy with the older skins you have, learn to tweak them and try to find a kind word to those just learning to skin...because.......for most skinners it is a thankless job that doesn't usually get so much as a thank you even if the skin is in fact ' good'
Usually you see more of 'this is good BUT' could I get this in a smaller size and a different color and maybe could you redo those buttons cos I just don't like oval ones"
"Sure....I have no life anyway"
Jafo
Reply #23 Monday, June 18, 2007 9:54 AM
Reply #23 Monday, June 18, 2007 9:54 AM
There is little to create when 75% of the skin is invisible.
Geez....I'd seriously have to debate that....at least with Winamp 2x skins.
Last time I counted it had taken me 3 months of editing/revising, each night every night to code by hand around 8000 individual transparency co-ordinates. [OK, so Maxim came along and created a solution that now takes about 5 minutes].
Either way, transparency takes as much effort to get 'right' as any actually visible part of a skin....as the skin itself requires BOTH [if it's not to be a dull-as-dishwater bland square]...
Like any form of graphic art....what you leave out of a picture is equally as important as what you include...
Fairyy~
Reply #24 Monday, June 18, 2007 10:06 AM
AND.....you could have warned me that your winamp had so much transparency cos I couldnt find it after I downloaded it.
Seriously..I was not expecting that from you..I thought I had mucked up the download.
Back to windowblinds...
Im not talking about the fact that its harder to make the blinds with transparency..Im talking about after awhile they all resemble each other. The older blinds had more artistic quality to them. I do like a mixture of semi-transparency but I like to be able to find my the text on my drop down menu's readable. Some of us do not have 20 year old eyes anymore...
Reply #24 Monday, June 18, 2007 10:06 AM
Geez....I'd seriously have to debate that....at least with Winamp 2x skins.
AND.....you could have warned me that your winamp had so much transparency cos I couldnt find it after I downloaded it.
Seriously..I was not expecting that from you..I thought I had mucked up the download.
Back to windowblinds...
Im not talking about the fact that its harder to make the blinds with transparency..Im talking about after awhile they all resemble each other. The older blinds had more artistic quality to them. I do like a mixture of semi-transparency but I like to be able to find my the text on my drop down menu's readable. Some of us do not have 20 year old eyes anymore...
Daiwa
Reply #25 Monday, June 18, 2007 1:40 PM
Reply #25 Monday, June 18, 2007 1:40 PM
This subject came up 2-3 months ago. Not much has changed in the meantime. Skinning for WB5+, though challenging and fun, is incredibly time-consuming. Skinning most GUI elements becomes fairly straightforward once you spend a little time examining & making changes to a skin in SKS, but there is no consistent logic that is applicable throughout skin design - no rhyme or reason why some images are tiled vertically, some horizontally, for instance - making a lot of skinning rote memorization, anything but intuitive.
But it's the GUI elements seldom seen, areas inadequately explained, elements for which the Preview is either not WYSIWYG or non-existent (and, regrettably, those are too numerous) that really bog you down. The interdependent nature of many of the images also slows you down - make a minor change to a button and 12 other images need to be modified to match up. Then there's the whole issue of Toolbar Buttons and Animations - SKS6 really needs to include tools for creating those and adequate instructions on how to use them. I have a half-dozen skins that I consider excellent and "done" in all other respects, but I haven't yet learned to do TB buttons or anims so I'm reluctant to upload them since they still seem "incomplete". I know there are 3rd-party apps for anims but it only seems logical to bundle that capability into SKS.
Making SKS previews true WYSIWYG and available for all GUI elements would be the number one thing I'd ask for in SKS6. Next would be more lay-language instructions & descriptions in the Help Pane - what's in SKS now was clearly written by coders for coders. In any event, if SKS6 addresses those shortcomings well, you're likely to see a significant improvement in the technical quality of uploaded skins.
But it's the GUI elements seldom seen, areas inadequately explained, elements for which the Preview is either not WYSIWYG or non-existent (and, regrettably, those are too numerous) that really bog you down. The interdependent nature of many of the images also slows you down - make a minor change to a button and 12 other images need to be modified to match up. Then there's the whole issue of Toolbar Buttons and Animations - SKS6 really needs to include tools for creating those and adequate instructions on how to use them. I have a half-dozen skins that I consider excellent and "done" in all other respects, but I haven't yet learned to do TB buttons or anims so I'm reluctant to upload them since they still seem "incomplete". I know there are 3rd-party apps for anims but it only seems logical to bundle that capability into SKS.
Making SKS previews true WYSIWYG and available for all GUI elements would be the number one thing I'd ask for in SKS6. Next would be more lay-language instructions & descriptions in the Help Pane - what's in SKS now was clearly written by coders for coders. In any event, if SKS6 addresses those shortcomings well, you're likely to see a significant improvement in the technical quality of uploaded skins.
sagitta573
Reply #26 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:53 AM
Free?? do you really think think an amazing program such as SkinStudio should be completely free??...And just so you know, there is a free version for those who "cannot afford it"
Well does that version offer the ability to make a great skin, such as the paid one? I highly doubt that as the is free and paid versions. The free version probably only allows you to make on good enough to learn, or want to buy the app so you can actually make a real skin
I dont mind that they charge, as I dont have the knowledge to make them myself, but just wanted to drop in my 2 cents
Reply #26 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:53 AM
Maybe if skinstudio was free, now that they are charging for dreams, isnt this possible? I think with more people who cannot afford it, get it for free, we may see a explosion of nice ones! I know tons of users who just cannot afford to buy skinstudio, but make killer visual styles
Free?? do you really think think an amazing program such as SkinStudio should be completely free??...And just so you know, there is a free version for those who "cannot afford it"
Well does that version offer the ability to make a great skin, such as the paid one? I highly doubt that as the is free and paid versions. The free version probably only allows you to make on good enough to learn, or want to buy the app so you can actually make a real skin
I dont mind that they charge, as I dont have the knowledge to make them myself, but just wanted to drop in my 2 cents
Bebi Bulma
Reply #27 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:15 AM
Reply #27 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:15 AM
You can make a real skin in the free version...I wish there was a list that compares the features of the free to the bought version, but I can't seem to find one.
Bichur
Reply #28 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:47 AM
Skin Studio Download Link with Comparison Chart
didn't JJ Ying use the free version?
Reply #28 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:47 AM
I wish there was a list that compares the features of the free to the bought version, but I can't seem to find one.
Skin Studio Download Link with Comparison Chart
didn't JJ Ying use the free version?
patrick24
Reply #29 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:46 PM
If people don't like having their work called 'icky' thats fine with me, but you can call my work whatever you like...as long as you leave some constructive criticism. Go ahead and shake me up every once in a while. I could use it!
I do agree that most of the skins released now a days aren't very well done. In fact I look back at some of my older works, and think "Man that's bad... What was I thinking!" As for other's, I usually keep my opinions to my self. But, I think this community needs more people like you, who will go out of their way, and risk be hated, to give people constructive criticism.
Keep it up!
Reply #29 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:46 PM
Anyway, I try really hard to leave constructive crits in my comments. Like "You should anti-alias those edges - there's a good tutorial for that here at http://xyz" instead of just beating them up for no reason.
If people don't like having their work called 'icky' thats fine with me, but you can call my work whatever you like...as long as you leave some constructive criticism. Go ahead and shake me up every once in a while. I could use it!
I do agree that most of the skins released now a days aren't very well done. In fact I look back at some of my older works, and think "Man that's bad... What was I thinking!" As for other's, I usually keep my opinions to my self. But, I think this community needs more people like you, who will go out of their way, and risk be hated, to give people constructive criticism.
Keep it up!
Frogboy
Reply #30 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:58 PM
Reply #30 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:58 PM
Maybe if skinstudio was free, now that they are charging for dreams, isnt this possible? I think with more people who cannot afford it, get it for free, we may see a explosion of nice ones! I know tons of users who just cannot afford to buy skinstudio, but make killer visual styles
Just a thought Stardock
Just a thought Stardock
SkinStudio is free.
There is a Pro version but that is the version that skins Windows Media Player and such which has nothing to do with WindowBlinds.
It costs nothing to make WindowBlinds skins.
vStyler
Reply #31 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:24 PM
Reply #31 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:24 PM
The free skinstudio is quite capable of making a prefectly functional , good looking skin.
As far as WYSIWYG, it would be nice for real time perfectly accurate previews but imo, it is best to apply after every single change anyway thus eliminating the need for WYSIWYG and letting you see the exact result within the skin. If SKS is taking too long to apply, use Wbconfig to apply each time, It significantly cuts apply times.
As far as WYSIWYG, it would be nice for real time perfectly accurate previews but imo, it is best to apply after every single change anyway thus eliminating the need for WYSIWYG and letting you see the exact result within the skin. If SKS is taking too long to apply, use Wbconfig to apply each time, It significantly cuts apply times.
patrick24
Reply #32 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:53 PM
*sigh*
Reply #32 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:53 PM
As far as WYSIWYG, it would be nice for real time perfectly accurate previews but imo, it is best to apply after every single change anyway thus eliminating the need for WYSIWYG and letting you see the exact result within the skin.
*sigh*
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #34 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:22 PM
Reply #34 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:22 PM
It is always best to apply after each change, how else can you see exactly what the skin is doing? Previews are ok but they can never represent a skin in action.
patrick24
Reply #35 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:16 PM
Reply #35 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:16 PM
What I meant is that I wish the preview was always accurate. For me it's a pain applying a skin every time a change something. I takes a while (at least on my system) and sometimes I have to go into the skin folder and manually delete or edit some code, because sometimes after apply a skin alot of times, SKS make new .uis files (for backup reason?) and the code is pointing to an older uis file, so the most recent changes are showing up. Sometimes I even have to restart my computer.
I try to use the 'test skin' feature as often as I can, but that does have limitations and I end up having to apply the skin anyways.
Am I the only one that has these types of problems?
I'm REALLY looking forward to SKS 6.
I try to use the 'test skin' feature as often as I can, but that does have limitations and I end up having to apply the skin anyways.
Am I the only one that has these types of problems?
I'm REALLY looking forward to SKS 6.
Daiwa
Reply #36 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:39 PM
Couldn't hurt if the previews were complete & WYSIWYG, though, could it? It would save me a lot of dev time - it might be a week before I run into some of the less-frequently-called GUI elements, sometimes longer. Some of the elements you can't even get to on your dev rig after applying the skin - mine logs on to a domain so even when logged on to the local machine I never see the logoff/shutdown dialogs; I have to load the skin on a workgroup machine to see them. It's that kind of stuff that I'd appreciate SKS6 addressing, in addition to the above.
Reply #36 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:39 PM
It is always best to apply after each change, how else can you see exactly what the skin is doing? Previews are ok but they can never represent a skin in action.
Couldn't hurt if the previews were complete & WYSIWYG, though, could it? It would save me a lot of dev time - it might be a week before I run into some of the less-frequently-called GUI elements, sometimes longer. Some of the elements you can't even get to on your dev rig after applying the skin - mine logs on to a domain so even when logged on to the local machine I never see the logoff/shutdown dialogs; I have to load the skin on a workgroup machine to see them. It's that kind of stuff that I'd appreciate SKS6 addressing, in addition to the above.
vStyler
Reply #37 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:13 PM
Reply #37 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:13 PM
No it certainly wont hurt i agree with everything u said.. but even if it gets to be more accurate I personally will probably apply everytime anyway.. and Patrick do you apply from WBconfig? It cut my apply times by about 7000% when i stopped using SKS to apply.
Z71
Reply #38 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:19 PM
Reply #38 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:19 PM
This is only meant as a helpful suggestion (hint).
There is a way to do it just a little faster than WBconfig.
Go to the Windowblinds folder and make a "shortcut" of WBload. Place it in your quicklauch, if you use quicklaunch, then after you save the skin in SkinStudio just click the icon. Instant re-fresh.
It'll only save you a second or two. That's about it.
I'm eagerly awaiting the new SkinStudio. From the little I've seen, it'll be great for Vista skinning also.
There is a way to do it just a little faster than WBconfig.
Go to the Windowblinds folder and make a "shortcut" of WBload. Place it in your quicklauch, if you use quicklaunch, then after you save the skin in SkinStudio just click the icon. Instant re-fresh.
It'll only save you a second or two. That's about it.
I'm eagerly awaiting the new SkinStudio. From the little I've seen, it'll be great for Vista skinning also.
jazzymjr
Reply #40 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
I personally have always applied the skin everytime I make a change. And, I do apply via WBConfig > Apply my changes. I want to know what the skin is actually doing. In fact, while I am building a blind, I use it exclusively, so that I have a really good idea how the skin works.
Reply #40 Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:42 PM
even if it gets to be more accurate I personally will probably apply everytime anyway.. and Patrick do you apply from WBconfig? It cut my apply times by about 7000% when i stopped using SKS to apply.
I personally have always applied the skin everytime I make a change. And, I do apply via WBConfig > Apply my changes. I want to know what the skin is actually doing. In fact, while I am building a blind, I use it exclusively, so that I have a really good idea how the skin works.
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Reply #21 Monday, June 18, 2007 9:28 AM