Intel exec fears for U.S. competitiveness
Future US role in technology in doubt?
Thursday, March 3, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
SAN FRANCISCO--Echoing concerns voiced by Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, a top Intel executive warned on Thursday that the United States risks becoming a second-tier technology player because of a declining educational system.
"We have a lousy education system," Intel Senior Vice President Pat Gelsinger said, speaking on a panel of technology leaders at the Intel Developer Forum here. "We have a weak infrastructure that is decaying."
Gelsinger noted that companies like Intel can adjust by hiring workers in other places but said the consequences for the United States could be devastating. He has noted in the past that the decline in the number of doctorates being awarded is particularly troubling.
I think it goes well beyond this. American culture is also becoming less competitive in the global market place in my opinion. The American need for instant gratification is really problematic. Stardock, an American company, is really half European, half American. That's because many American workers want to make money really fast and in the technology indstury, particularly when dealing in emerging markets, it takes considerable up-front investment in time and energy. Many young Americans don't have the patience or willingness to make short-term sacrifices in order for long-term success.
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Reply #2 Thursday, March 3, 2005 10:08 PM
Reply #3 Thursday, March 3, 2005 10:45 PM
Reply #4 Thursday, March 3, 2005 11:43 PM
Of the top 10 coders everytime they compete, 6-8 of them are Americans.
The reason people use overseas programmers is because they are cheap. Thats it in a nutshell - they aren't better, and for small companies or indy developers, cheap talent is important when they don't have the cash to spring for top-kit US talent. A good programmer in India is happy to make 10K a year, good money for over there. Can you blame a US guy for wanting a good income? Its expensive to live in this country, and people require substantial incomes to flourish.
Good game programmers I know in the US, won't even blink at you if you offer them less than 75K a year base salary + perks.
Reply #5 Thursday, March 3, 2005 11:55 PM
Reply #6 Friday, March 4, 2005 1:45 AM
Reply #7 Friday, March 4, 2005 9:28 AM
Back then, you could leave 6th grade and be wll off.
Indrustry has changed and you can not just do manual labor anymrore. It is tech driven and businesses are demanding KNOWLEDGE workers.
The current system is designed for kids to memorize and learn how to read and write, not think. Also keep in mind that there are other skils such as social skills that don't get developed.
And it is expensive to live in the cities of the USA. With housing costs sky rocketing, you can't even move to New Mexico without losing your shirt.
Reply #8 Friday, March 4, 2005 10:47 AM
My point isn't that Americans aren't good coders - they are. But rather that Americans, as a culture, are so fixated on isntant gratification that businesses are increasingly going overseas.
It has nothing to do with "fair" wages. What the heck is a "fair wage" anyway? Americans want to get rich quick relatively speaking. Our European developers, on average, make a lot of money these days. But not at first.
By contrast, American CS studens come out of college with their half-assed knowledge on software development and demand big bucks on day one. Sorry, it's a global market these days. I have no sympathy for the Americans on this one (and I say that as an American software developer).
Americans can code just as well if not better than people from around the world.
Reply #9 Friday, March 4, 2005 2:38 PM
war is peace,
freedom is slavery,
ignorance is strength..
Reply #10 Friday, March 4, 2005 5:29 PM
The US already spends more per child than any other country. The money is poorly used.
Reply #11 Friday, March 4, 2005 5:48 PM
Overseas living requirements and costs need to be considered. A guy making 50K a year in India, is a rich mofo. A guy making 50K a year here, is at best, getting by. You can't blame people for wanting enough money to have a reasonable living without wanting to become slaves to the corporate overlords at 70 hours a week. A guy overseas can probably sustain himself on a meager salary with the promise of a bright future. A guy in the US doesn't have that luxury unless he lives in his moms basement, and if he just spent 7 years at a university, can you blame him for not accepting that?
Your "Sorry its a global market" statement works both ways. Don't expect people to have a shred of ambition to purchase products from "American" companies, when they can buy cheaper Chinese products, or pick up freeware alternatives programmed in Russia. Its a two way street. I have no sympathy for American Corporations when they cry about not being able to compete, and your statement reinforces why I feel this way.
Reply #12 Friday, March 4, 2005 6:42 PM
The Educational System of the US needs to be restructured (the one here in Germany too).
Good Coders are always an exception... and theses exceptions are not programming any kind of crap for Microshit or Intel.
Reply #13 Friday, March 4, 2005 9:53 PM
Get rich quick has always been a part of the so-called American dream, or at least a skewed one that rears it's ugly head now and again (getting rich through hard work would be the real one). That problem has been exacerbated by the tech bubble of the late '90s where people actually were getting rich overnight. Write up a rosy Internet-based business plan, do an IPO, and in one day people went from thousands in debt to instant millionaires (and two Super Bowl commercials later, they're back to debt). It's almost like getting rich quick is the perceived birthright of the tech sector.
The answer to solving the education problem is not the traditional Democrat answer, just throw money at a problem and it will go away. The answer is not the traditional Republican answer, cut taxes and get private interests involved to make the world a better place. The best and brightest of America in general are not becoming teachers. They need to in order for real progress to be made. They don't and it's not just the low pay because the best and brightest know how to prosper regardless of their income. Red tape and bureaucratic excesses cover the public school systems, weighing them down. What smart person wants to board a sinking ship? It's a chicken-or-egg problem though. Smart people generally aren't going to join a messed-up system, but it can't get fixed without them. It's going to take a generation of altruistic geniuses to get everything in line. Good luck, America, you're going to need it.
As a side note, ever notice how no one in the world ever seems to elect history or math professors to goverment positions? Why do lawyers always get the jobs? Do you think this disparity has something to do with a lot of the world's problems? Wouldn't it make sense to elect people who study and learn from the mistakes of the past along with people who can balance a budget and use calculators accurately? Why do I sound like an angry over-the-hill parent of a teenager when I'm only 19?
Reply #14 Friday, March 4, 2005 10:32 PM
I agree with Kobrona that (increasingly) the "American dream" is to get rich -- QUICK -- without having to sacrifice.
In our case, a lot of the software we make is in emerging markets. There's an element of risk involved in whether it will succeed or not. Few young Americans these days seem to be willing to go a few lean years for long term potential success. They'd rather go out and get their "big" paying jobs.
And frankly, if your $50k per year job can be outsourced to someone making $10k per year, then good. Why should companies discriminate to such an extreme length just to get "native" people?
We don't outsource labor to China or India or whatever. We look for the BEST developers we can find who are interested in creating new things that will involve a lot of work and some short term sacrifice. And now we have some pretty wealthy successful software developers -- who live in Europe because they were willing to take a chance and apply their immense skills.
WindowBlinds, IconPackager, SkinStudio, DesktopX, and most of the other programs on WinCustomize were coded largely by Europeans - not because it was "cheaper" but because they were willing to look towards the long term.
In my opinion, the only reason why the Europeans don't already dominate the technology field (oir at least run a lot more strongly) is that their governments are idiotic in how they tax and over-regulate their companies.
Reply #15 Friday, March 4, 2005 10:46 PM
| Of course people want to get rich, its the American Dream. But I think its unfair to say they all exit college with the idea they want to get rich quick - I don't believe that is true for a minute. Most people I know, after college expect a reasonable wage - thats a pretty relative term, but I think in general, 50-55K a year minimum for a fresh graduate. Do you consider that excessive? |
Of course that is excessive. Someone spends years in college with little or no real work experience, and they should immediately make at least $50,000 a year?
Reply #16 Friday, March 4, 2005 11:15 PM
| And frankly, if your $50k per year job can be outsourced to someone making $10k per year, then good. Why should companies discriminate to such an extreme length just to get "native" people? |
Probably because when you outsource people here in the US lose jobs and thats not good for a company or the economy because that guy without a job can't buy the companies product because he has no money because said company outsourced.
Reply #17 Saturday, March 5, 2005 12:18 AM
Kona - by that argument we should just stop trading at all with other countries. American consumers outsource jobs every day. Next time you look at some commodity good, note where it was made - China.
Many times the choice isn't between an American or someone outside the US. It's someone outside the US or not being able to compete in the market.
American consumers don't seem to be that concerned about where the products they purchase are made. They go by price. Companies, in turn, have to respond by finding ways to lower their costs.
The problem is that younger Americans combine a sense of entitlement with a lack of work ethic. As Island Dog points out, it's ridiculous that American college students graduate thinking they should get $50k per year (or even $40k per year) simply because they took some classes. That's what's making the US less competitive.
I'm not a politician, so I'm not going to pander to Americans on this issue. I want to hire Americans. It's a lot more convenient to do so. But many technology jobs require a LOT of training and time before the person is able to produce anything worthwhile. And Americans, increasingly, are unwilling to put in that time. Europeans, for whatever cultural reasons, are willing to put in that time more often and so they get the jobs.
At our company, we don't discriminate. We don't care what color you are. What sex you are. Where you live. We want the best and brightest who are willing to learn adn stick to it. We have plenty of Americans who have been willing to stick to it and they often make 2X or 3X (and in one case 4X) what they started. But they're rare. For some reason, Europeans are much more likely to take a shot and sacrifice for the first few years, acquire the skills and become key people who are paid very well.
My view of the American dream is that if you work hard and play by the rules you can succeed.
Reply #19 Saturday, March 5, 2005 3:39 AM
| The problem is that younger Americans combine a sense of entitlement with a lack of work ethic. As Island Dog points out, it's ridiculous that American college students graduate thinking they should get $50k per year (or even $40k per year) simply because they took some classes. That's what's making the US less competitive. |
Umm, its not that they "Expect" 40-50K a year starting out, its pretty much a requirement. I mean thats about the least amount someone can make around here and "Survive". I'm still quite shocked that people think 40-50k a year is "Great Money".
I don't think its anything to do with work ethic or entitlement mentalities. Its everything to do with people not willing to become victims of the corporate machine. I've worked in all sizes of corporations, but they all share one thing in common, they want to suck the life out of you and make you slaves to the machine. People in the US nowdays are smart enough to know most corporations are evil, and out to screw you over, thats the way it works in life. So people wised up and now have a "Take what you can get" mentality, because the reality is, the longterm payouts ain't guaranteed and the corporations will usually find a way to screw you out of any verbal promises they made. A corporation will show you the door on a drop of a hat. Things run lean a few months, your gone. You make a mistake, your gone. You don't fit into the cult(company atmosphere), your gone.
So the basic mentality is, get in and negotiate as much as you can upfront, because nothing else is guaranteed. Can you blame them? The corporate environments in this country sucks and everyone is wise to the games they play. Some professors are actually teaching classes on corporate greed and how to overcome it as an employee now btw.
Another reason why overseas developers will work for less is many are unemployed over there, with an average unemployment rate of 10-18% (or higher). The currency exchange rate was pretty good for awhile which helped US jobs look lucrative. Money goes much farther over there (depending on country) than it does here. Another reason is they can work out of their home and don't have to put up with the bullshit of the corporate work environment and day to day hassles of trying to work with other wierdos.
So don't kid yourself, and think they are doing all of this for the "Good of the company". They are doing it purely because its their best option other than being unemployed, its convienent - they can work from home, and the money isn't bad considering exchange rates. None of this appeals to high quality American coders obviously, so its disingenuous to blame them, and label it all a conspiracy.
Reply #20 Saturday, March 5, 2005 11:01 AM
| Umm, its not that they "Expect" 40-50K a year starting out, its pretty much a requirement. I mean thats about the least amount someone can make around here and "Survive". I'm still quite shocked that people think 40-50k a year is "Great Money". |
That is in no way a requirement. People survive on a lot less, they might not have everything they want, but they are comfortable. I really don't know where you are getting those figures that you think people who make less than $50K can't make it, that is just false.
Actually if you can make $50K that is great money. But once again like Brad said, just because you take some classes, have no real working experience, you should make at least $50K? That seems to be the problem right there. What happened to working your way up, what happened to starting small and gaining valuable work experience? No, it's just go to college, then get out and expect a high salary for someone with no experience but a piece of paper which says I showed up for class.
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Reply #1 Thursday, March 3, 2005 10:01 PM