should we make skins for making money?
Sunday, June 26, 2005 by Bash2cool | Discussion: OS Customization
Users in wincustomize.com make a lot of good skins and people even subscribe to wincustomize because of how good they are; but don't you think that they should get paid? They spend their own free time making skins for people to enjoy and download but the users who make them don't get nothing in return. Making skins are apart of some peoples lifes and some of these peolpe i bet at least 10 out of 100 don't have enough money to pay for their rent or pay their bills and taxes. I think that people who become subscribers should make skins for money and the who don't subcribe just make skins for free.----please send comments of what you think.
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Fairyy~
Reply #22 Monday, June 27, 2005 7:51 PM
Your Gallery has 1 boot skin listed. Are you hiding the rest ?
Reply #22 Monday, June 27, 2005 7:51 PM
| Yes i did take lots of time on my skins Super Wizop Hippy. Glad you asked. |
Your Gallery has 1 boot skin listed. Are you hiding the rest ?
maxholder
Reply #23 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:09 AM
Reply #23 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:09 AM
since premium skins already exist bash2cool it would appear that people already are charging for their endeavours. perhaps the real question is whether the market would support this trend going mainstream. would i pay for a skin?. i already have. would i pay for more? i don't think so.
Daiwa
Reply #24 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:27 AM
Reply #24 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:27 AM
Whether someone chooses to charge for the thing they've created with their hard work (skinning is tedious & time-consuming now with the explosion of variables & options in WB4) is entirely up to the skinner/artist and none of us should criticize anyone for choosing to do so. Instead, we should be expressing our gratitude to all the skinners, amateurs & pros alike, who've made their wonderful work available for us to enjoy, whether gratis or for a modest fee.
For me, there would be criteria to be met for a skin to merit a purchase price - truly original content, inclusion of all supported skinnable GUI elements, that sort of thing, but such criteria might be different for someone else. Whether to give away or to sell is a personal choice we should all have the prerogative to make for ourselves, free of criticism, and whether to buy is, as they say, up to the buyer.
Cheers,
Daiwa
For me, there would be criteria to be met for a skin to merit a purchase price - truly original content, inclusion of all supported skinnable GUI elements, that sort of thing, but such criteria might be different for someone else. Whether to give away or to sell is a personal choice we should all have the prerogative to make for ourselves, free of criticism, and whether to buy is, as they say, up to the buyer.
Cheers,
Daiwa
Gregory2001
Reply #25 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 6:49 AM
Reply #25 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 6:49 AM
I have purchased every premium skin available. I will continue to do so for the simple reason that they are "premium".
thomassen
Reply #26 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:42 PM
The question is then; what market? The private end user market? Or the Corporate market? Two quite different ones. I personally wouldn't set out to rely on selling skins to the private market. The corporate, well,.. this is something I'm planning to have alook into next year when I've completed my studies.
Reply #26 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:42 PM
| since premium skins already exist bash2cool it would appear that people already are charging for their endeavours. perhaps the real question is whether the market would support this trend going mainstream. would i pay for a skin?. i already have. would i pay for more? i don't think so. |
The question is then; what market? The private end user market? Or the Corporate market? Two quite different ones. I personally wouldn't set out to rely on selling skins to the private market. The corporate, well,.. this is something I'm planning to have alook into next year when I've completed my studies.
Iben
Reply #27 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:38 AM
Reply #27 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:38 AM
~
should we make skins for making money?
~
should we make skins for making money?
In a word.
Yes
~
Bichur
Reply #28 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:26 AM
Let me see... I subscribe so you wanna force me to skin but will pay me? okay - I need $800 a day plus expenses.
But... If I don't subscribe you wanna force me to skin for free? Yeah, right. I'll get right on it. Right after the several billion people who don't subscribe turn theirs in.
Reply #28 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:26 AM
| I think that people who become subscribers should make skins for money and the who don't subcribe just make skins for free. |
Let me see... I subscribe so you wanna force me to skin but will pay me? okay - I need $800 a day plus expenses.
But... If I don't subscribe you wanna force me to skin for free? Yeah, right. I'll get right on it. Right after the several billion people who don't subscribe turn theirs in.
cyber villan
Reply #29 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 6:32 AM
Reply #29 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 6:32 AM
I wouldn't mind paying a little for for a skin, like a WindowBlind, Icon Package, etc. WinCustomize should setup a link at the artists WinCustomize web site where people can donate (cash by mail) to the artist a little if they want to.
I don't agree that it should only be a hobby though. Making things like GUI designs and themes for computers is pretty hard work. I can't see why people that make themes aren't treated like professionals like graphics designers that make graphics software for companies are. Theme designers make graphics designs that people can use to change the way their operating system's graphic user interface looks.
Mean, why can't someone make a little money making designs? I haven't gotten into actually making skins yet, and I just don't have the time to right now. But if or when I did, I don't think it would be a good idea to force somone to pay for something that I made. But a donation link would be okay since there would probably be enough kind people that would donate a little.
I don't agree that it should only be a hobby though. Making things like GUI designs and themes for computers is pretty hard work. I can't see why people that make themes aren't treated like professionals like graphics designers that make graphics software for companies are. Theme designers make graphics designs that people can use to change the way their operating system's graphic user interface looks.
Mean, why can't someone make a little money making designs? I haven't gotten into actually making skins yet, and I just don't have the time to right now. But if or when I did, I don't think it would be a good idea to force somone to pay for something that I made. But a donation link would be okay since there would probably be enough kind people that would donate a little.
Apocalypse_67
Reply #30 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:50 AM
This is one of the biggest misconceptions anyone can have of this site. Subscribing to WC helps to support the website that in exchange allows users to upload/share their skins for others to download and use.
Purchasing a premium skin helps to support the author of the skin and shows your appreciation to such author for his time and work.
But at the end of the day it all boils down to this;
If you like/want to buy the skin, by all means do so. If you don’t like/don’t want to buy the skin, then DON'T BUY IT. Period.
It doesn’t get any simpler than that.
Reply #30 Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:50 AM
| I think that people who become subscribers should make skins for money and the who don't subcribe just make skins for free. |
This is one of the biggest misconceptions anyone can have of this site. Subscribing to WC helps to support the website that in exchange allows users to upload/share their skins for others to download and use.
Purchasing a premium skin helps to support the author of the skin and shows your appreciation to such author for his time and work.
But at the end of the day it all boils down to this;
If you like/want to buy the skin, by all means do so. If you don’t like/don’t want to buy the skin, then DON'T BUY IT. Period.
It doesn’t get any simpler than that.
DC_23
Reply #31 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 6:51 AM
Reply #31 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 6:51 AM
Everyone has the right to sell their work/creations. No one has an obligation to buy it.
There are a lot of customs "skins" for many programs and many "themes" for the Object Desktop programs. Some of them are high quality others are 'first attempts' or something the 'artist' threw together. But they all take time. And time is money.
I am new to skinning, OK, not even skinning, I am new to applying someone else's skinning to my desktop. I downloaded a DesktopX theme and applied it to my system. I tweaked it to suit my preferences, and even that has taken up several hours of my time. I believe the creator when he says he has over 300 hours of his time into it. At California's minimum wage @ 300 hours, that would be over $2000. This skin has 60,000 downloads, so, that is a price of 3 and a half cents for each download to break even. Of course grafics artists don't work for minimum wage, and not every skin/theme will get 60,000 downloads.
If I were to create my own theme I would not expect to get paid for my time. If I had made 20-30 themes and have been getting better with each one, and by now other users are requesting features, and my time is becoming more focused on this skin/theme and I am meeting these requests and now producing quality work, it might be time to think about selling my work.
Several problems come to mind....
1)As a "new to the customizing scene" user, I am not going to purchase something that I have no idea what it even is. I might even get turn away from the whole thing if I see that it requires money. Picture someone downloading trial Stardock software and going to the website and seeing that not only will he/she need to purchase the software, they will also have to purchace the skins. This could cost Stardock since that person doesn't want something that is a money vacuum. OK, some will find the free section, but how good of quality is in the free section now that people are wanting to sell their work?
2)Once one person purchases a skin, theoretically, now everyone has access to it. It can be shared via email or other skinning sites. Albeit not legally. Are you, the skinner, going to be able or willing to take further actions in finding the 'leak' and taking them to court siting copyright and DRM laws?
3)I have seen some 'premium' skins that incorporate Trademarked figures. Are there TM laws regarding the unautherized use of those images? I am sure that if you create a Superman theme and use it for personal use DC comics will not mind, but once you use Superman's image and likeness for profit, you could be treading thin water with copyright and trademark laws. Of course, all original content would be fine to sell. But how much is original? Can I download several themes/skins and combine the features that I like to create a single skin/theme and call it mine?
The original question was "Should we make skins for making money?", I say by all means, if you feel you have a product that you can sell, then sell it. I do not, however, suggest someone quit their job to become a skinner. Unless Stardock hires you and pays you to skin, it is not likely to pay the bills. Which is why you are not going to see 'premium' skins/themes from me, I can not afford to spend 8 hours each day on skinning. Time, really is money.
There are a lot of customs "skins" for many programs and many "themes" for the Object Desktop programs. Some of them are high quality others are 'first attempts' or something the 'artist' threw together. But they all take time. And time is money.
I am new to skinning, OK, not even skinning, I am new to applying someone else's skinning to my desktop. I downloaded a DesktopX theme and applied it to my system. I tweaked it to suit my preferences, and even that has taken up several hours of my time. I believe the creator when he says he has over 300 hours of his time into it. At California's minimum wage @ 300 hours, that would be over $2000. This skin has 60,000 downloads, so, that is a price of 3 and a half cents for each download to break even. Of course grafics artists don't work for minimum wage, and not every skin/theme will get 60,000 downloads.
If I were to create my own theme I would not expect to get paid for my time. If I had made 20-30 themes and have been getting better with each one, and by now other users are requesting features, and my time is becoming more focused on this skin/theme and I am meeting these requests and now producing quality work, it might be time to think about selling my work.
Several problems come to mind....
1)As a "new to the customizing scene" user, I am not going to purchase something that I have no idea what it even is. I might even get turn away from the whole thing if I see that it requires money. Picture someone downloading trial Stardock software and going to the website and seeing that not only will he/she need to purchase the software, they will also have to purchace the skins. This could cost Stardock since that person doesn't want something that is a money vacuum. OK, some will find the free section, but how good of quality is in the free section now that people are wanting to sell their work?
2)Once one person purchases a skin, theoretically, now everyone has access to it. It can be shared via email or other skinning sites. Albeit not legally. Are you, the skinner, going to be able or willing to take further actions in finding the 'leak' and taking them to court siting copyright and DRM laws?
3)I have seen some 'premium' skins that incorporate Trademarked figures. Are there TM laws regarding the unautherized use of those images? I am sure that if you create a Superman theme and use it for personal use DC comics will not mind, but once you use Superman's image and likeness for profit, you could be treading thin water with copyright and trademark laws. Of course, all original content would be fine to sell. But how much is original? Can I download several themes/skins and combine the features that I like to create a single skin/theme and call it mine?
The original question was "Should we make skins for making money?", I say by all means, if you feel you have a product that you can sell, then sell it. I do not, however, suggest someone quit their job to become a skinner. Unless Stardock hires you and pays you to skin, it is not likely to pay the bills. Which is why you are not going to see 'premium' skins/themes from me, I can not afford to spend 8 hours each day on skinning. Time, really is money.
Apocalypse_67
Reply #32 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 11:20 AM
Reply #32 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 11:20 AM
1) That is the reason why trial versions are offered, so the public can try/test the product before deciding to purchase it or not. As it stands right now there are over 5,000 free skins between WindowBlinds, IconPacks and Cursors against a dozen or so premium skins/sets. Also, not every artist gets to make premium skins there for the quality of the free skins will not be compromised, yet the quality and features of a premium skins tends to be much higher than the free ones.
2) Authors of these premium skins have and will seek legal action against those that illegally distribute their work. Websites and domains have been shutdown for housing and distributing these skins, then again the number of such cases is minimum, mostly because people are not so thrilled about purchasing a skin and emailed it to someone that wants to get it for free. Every so often I get an email from someone asking me to send them the premium iconpack or skin they saw on one of my screenshots, to which I reply with the link to the site where they can purchase. ( I get a kick out that
)
3) Trademark/Copyright material is very hard to profit from in form of premium skins/themes. A corporation or website will not house these skins for fear of legal actions taken against them. Unless the legal holder of such material has licensed or granted permission for the use and distribution of such material.
2) Authors of these premium skins have and will seek legal action against those that illegally distribute their work. Websites and domains have been shutdown for housing and distributing these skins, then again the number of such cases is minimum, mostly because people are not so thrilled about purchasing a skin and emailed it to someone that wants to get it for free. Every so often I get an email from someone asking me to send them the premium iconpack or skin they saw on one of my screenshots, to which I reply with the link to the site where they can purchase. ( I get a kick out that
)3) Trademark/Copyright material is very hard to profit from in form of premium skins/themes. A corporation or website will not house these skins for fear of legal actions taken against them. Unless the legal holder of such material has licensed or granted permission for the use and distribution of such material.
Sleeping Dragon
Reply #33 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 11:27 AM
Reply #33 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 11:27 AM
It's a big world with many people. There is room for "free" skins and "purchasable" skins without there being a compromise in quality for either. Just my opinion.
Underdog45
Reply #34 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 11:54 AM
Reply #34 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 11:54 AM
There doesn't have to be a wall between hobby and business. There's no better example than the Homestar Runner Link guys who started making cartoons to teach themselves Flash, and now the sales of merchandise allowed them to quit their day jobs and do the website exclusively. They also do some freelance Flash stuff, including the Mellow Mushroom website Link.
moshi
Reply #35 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 12:42 PM
Why are putting you it on this level? I got more than 200 skins online (Skinbase with 241 uploads probably has most of them), so I´m more right than others? That´s nothing else but locker room politics for 14 year olds.
As I am working as an engineer and share my skins for free. I don´t give a f**k about what others do. "Professional skinning" is not even third class when i compare it with the quality level of real designers work.
Reply #35 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 12:42 PM
| #20 by Super Wizop Hippy Mon, June 27, 2005 0:45 PM "Skinning is a hobby, not a career" Nice gallery, did you spend a lot of time on your skins? |
Why are putting you it on this level? I got more than 200 skins online (Skinbase with 241 uploads probably has most of them), so I´m more right than others? That´s nothing else but locker room politics for 14 year olds.
As I am working as an engineer and share my skins for free. I don´t give a f**k about what others do. "Professional skinning" is not even third class when i compare it with the quality level of real designers work.
Sleeping Dragon
Reply #36 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 1:06 PM
The same freedom that allows your opinion, allows Hippy his freedom of speech ...er script.
-My opinion
Reply #36 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 1:06 PM
| I don´t give a f**k about what others do. "Professional skinning" is not even third class when i compare it with the quality level of real designers work. |
The same freedom that allows your opinion, allows Hippy his freedom of speech ...er script.
-My opinion
Apocalypse_67
Reply #37 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 4:37 PM
That's because there's a world of difference between Engineer Design and GUI Designs. It will be absurd to compare the two.
Reply #37 Wednesday, July 6, 2005 4:37 PM
| "Professional skinning" is not even third class when i compare it with the quality level of real designers work. |
That's because there's a world of difference between Engineer Design and GUI Designs. It will be absurd to compare the two.
MarkMcQ
Reply #38 Thursday, July 7, 2005 4:52 AM
Reply #38 Thursday, July 7, 2005 4:52 AM
| Why are putting you it on this level? |
I could make the claim that golfing is a hobby and shouldn't be career. Yet I've never once picked up a golf club in my life, so I'm hardly qualified to make a solid claim on the issue.
moshi
Reply #39 Thursday, July 7, 2005 12:57 PM
True. For example the io WindowBlinds skin (part of a paysuite)Link is a combination of a rather "generic" plastic and the Metal Navbar 1 Photoshop tutorial by theWebMachine Link.
It´s a good looking skin, i actually really like Hippy´s semi-cartoonic style. It is not that impressive though, everyone (including me) can follow a tutorial.
Reply #39 Thursday, July 7, 2005 12:57 PM
| That's because there's a world of difference between Engineer Design and GUI Designs. It will be absurd to compare the two. |
True. For example the io WindowBlinds skin (part of a paysuite)Link is a combination of a rather "generic" plastic and the Metal Navbar 1 Photoshop tutorial by theWebMachine Link.
It´s a good looking skin, i actually really like Hippy´s semi-cartoonic style. It is not that impressive though, everyone (including me) can follow a tutorial.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #40 Thursday, July 7, 2005 1:18 PM
Reply #40 Thursday, July 7, 2005 1:18 PM
The woodwork must feel a little lonely today...
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Reply #21 Monday, June 27, 2005 4:23 PM